(retouch) suggestion buff gk and nuff eldar

[Torpid]

You guys realise that most melee fights aren't 100% melee vs melee?

When my ASM are fighting banshees the banshees are suffering dearly from my tactical marine + scout shotgun damage too, meanwhile my ASM are losing barely any hp from the pathetic dire avenger fire, and assuming i'm not right in front of a shuriken, little from that too.

It's not obvious at all that a unit is a worse melee unit because it has HI, granted it often does disadvantage units in 1v1 melee fights, but how often do 1v1 melee fights occur?

[BaptismByLoli]

Gabriel Gorgutz

Who?

[Tsototar]

(off topic again, sorry)

Eldar as a whole are not trained to release their psychic talent, except for the seers. Banshees are fast, agile aliens, but are NEVER witches.

(a) All Eldar are psychic (that's partly what caused the Fall in the first place), which by the standards of the Imperium I'm sure qualifies them as "witches", esp. since any little psychic power in a human gets them a one-way trip on the Black ships.
(only Dark Eldar entirely avoid use of psychic powers for fear of She Who Thirsts)

(b) except for Exarchs, Eldar change roles over their lifetime. Banshee today does not necessarily mean Banshee tomorrow.

That's a Farseer in my profile pic, btw.

[Tsototar]

You guys realise that most melee fights aren't 100% melee vs melee?

When my ASM are fighting banshees the banshees are suffering dearly from my tactical marine + scout shotgun damage too, meanwhile my ASM are losing barely any hp from the pathetic dire avenger fire, and assuming i'm not right in front of a shuriken, little from that too.

It's not obvious at all that a unit is a worse melee unit because it has HI, granted it often does disadvantage units in 1v1 melee fights, but how often do 1v1 melee fights occur?

so very true my shees lose a lot of fights they "should" win because of nearby support, and basically everything ranged can really hurt shees in a way they won't for ASM (hello heavy infantry armour!).

[Ace of Swords]

Tacts and DAs do the same DPS.

But on heavy infantry a single squad of DA does about 30 dps and tacts about 43 on normal infantry, so obviously tacts will win that fight, except if it wasn't for the fact that one squad costs 270 req and one 450.

[saltychipmunk]

and a really bad landraider.

You're joking here, right? The LRC gives HP and energy Regen and has the most HP out of all vehicles.
It's also a very effective anti-infantry behemoth.

oh if only infantry was the unit type gk actually had problems dealing with. It is bad not because of its stats as you aptly pointed out they are superb, but because gk already gets a metric butt ton of anti infantry in the copious amount of melee oriented squads they get , but generally it is the bane blades , predators and your token battle tanks of the world that prove the real defining nemesis of gk end game.

and a slow land raider that deals the majority of its damage as pierce damage is not very helpful against players who know to get the t3 tank spam going against gk .

same is true for the terminators , force halberds and hammers on fat space marines do not make good tools for dealing with kiting vehicles.

hence why i said one dimensional.

[Torpid]

Tacts and DAs do the same DPS.

But on heavy infantry a single squad of DA does about 30 dps and tacts about 43 on normal infantry, so obviously tacts will win that fight, except if it wasn't for the fact that one squad costs 270 req and one 450.

Sure, but now you're not accounting for bleed/upkeep... But that's going off topic and wasn't what I was saying, it was just an example. I'm not saying ASM/shees are better than one another, they're very different units in very different races.

What I was saying was that it isn't obvious that a melee unit is disadvantaged merely by the fact that they have HI instead of LI.

[Ace of Swords]

Not that's obvious, I find heavy armor to be bad against ranged units actually, it does fine in melee.

[Flash]

I can't believe what I'm about to say.

Gabriel Gorgutz was right from the start.

How so/what about?

[Dark Riku]

I can't believe what I'm about to say.

Gabriel Gorgutz was right from the start.

About what exactly...?

Who?

The guy that's in charge of the Codex Edition (fluff mod). It just got a new update too.

[lolzarz]

(off topic again, sorry)

(a) All Eldar are psychic (that's partly what caused the Fall in the first place), which by the standards of the Imperium I'm sure qualifies them as "witches", esp. since any little psychic power in a human gets them a one-way trip on the Black ships.
(only Dark Eldar entirely avoid use of psychic powers for fear of She Who Thirsts)

(b) except for Exarchs, Eldar change roles over their lifetime. Banshee today does not necessarily mean Banshee tomorrow.

That's a Farseer in my profile pic, btw.

All Eldar are psychic. Not all are trained to use it. Just because Eldar are able to use psychic mechanisms (striking scorpion mandiblasters, banshee war shout, etc.) doesn't mean they can employ actual psychic powers, such as using a force weapon, because they were not taught to do so. Psychic potential does not equate into psychic power, as the poor Guardsman who caused the events of Soulstorm would tell you.

[Forestradio]

Adjusting melee_pvp against HI armor is not needed and would likely make the t1 of SM, GK, and Chaos too good, as well as making it even harder to trigger synapse bombs against tyranids.

Nerfing power melee would severely hamper commander weapons and pretty much every dedicated melee squad in the game (including HI things like MoK marines, purifiers, clawminators, etc). Keep in mind that many of the HI melee squads have additional benefits, such as higher speed, longer charge range, more hp regen in combat, abilities to help them out, etc.

[BaptismByLoli]

1. ALL power sword(or weapon) cannot peneterate super heavy infantry armor (meaning no additional damage) and ALL gk brethren now have super heavy infantry armor type.

[Tsototar]

(1) Would a longer range AV weapon upgrade on the GK dread fix this, say a Lascannon?

(2) what would be the side effects?

oh if only infantry was the unit type gk actually had problems dealing with. It is bad not because of its stats as you aptly pointed out they are superb, but because gk already gets a metric butt ton of anti infantry in the copious amount of melee oriented squads they get , but generally it is the bane blades , predators and your token battle tanks of the world that prove the real defining nemesis of gk end game.

and a slow land raider that deals the majority of its damage as pierce damage is not very helpful against players who know to get the t3 tank spam going against gk .

same is true for the terminators , force halberds and hammers on fat space marines do not make good tools for dealing with kiting vehicles.

hence why i said one dimensional.

[saltychipmunk]

If it was just a question of having a long ranged av weapon , then this issue would have been put to rest with the rhino las cannon and the vindicar assassin, yet the problem persists. No Gk needs something more than half measures .

And their t3 really should be used to fill in the rather MASSIVE holes in their unit line up, not added to mounting redundancies.

Seriously if this is all the unit variety gk have on offer then it is a minor miracle these poor smucks get anything done in the w40k universe when they can be stopped in their tracks by a mek boy and a looted tank.

No what they need is a real t3 tank and a real arty unit ( and the 4 things i suggested earlier) , not 2 minor variations of the same melee terminator squad , not an over priced plasma cannon with a pathetic range on an already over priced dreadnaught and definitely not an ultra heavy vehicle that is as mobile as a castle and does the majority of its damage as the least relevant damage type in the t3 end game.

[Tsototar]

well, the advantage of a small change is that it's less likely (though not completely unlikely) to have unanticipated side effects. Introducing new units is a bigger change than tweaking an existing one. One way to "solve" the problems with Grey Knights would of course be to eliminate the faction entirely, I mean, the Elite mod team didn't *have* to introduce them (nobody held a gun to their heads right?), and then forever have to listen to so much caterwauling.

If the complaint is about poor AV solutions, then an additional AV weapon doesn't sound terrible. Your complaint about "overpriced" is a separate issue entirely. My thought re: additional AV on the dread was that, well, the tweak of the brightlance on the Wraithlord led to so much sky-is-falling moaning from non-Eldar players, "surely the idea of something similar for GK must cheer 'em up".

You want a T3 tank? Well instead of introducing an entirely new tank, maybe a further upgrade of the rhino? (Don't know where that stands on the fluff, though).

Speaking of fluff, w.r.t. what you said... the GK are a specialised chapter right? they're called in when there's too much Chaos to handle for the other guys, so what that means is that "normal" fighting is meant to be handled by mainline chapters. It's like how you don't send in Seal Team Six to take Fallujah, you send them in when you need UBL dead.

[Element]

saltychipmunk wrote: and a really bad landraider.

You're joking here, right? The LRC gives HP and energy Regen and has the most HP out of all vehicles.
It's also a very effective anti-infantry behemoth.

I agree completely with riku here.. Honestly I'd say the SM LR is the weakest... No range on its weapons... (2 flame Storm Cannons)Frag Assault is fine... but who is stupid enough to get that close enough to a Land Raider in the first place when they are using the LR to push. It's different when your pusing against the LR, to which Frag Assault is more a defensive ability than anything...the Crusader is a very strong bunker and deals with infantry well from a distance, however I do agree like you said tha we already have plenty of anti infantry along the lines of terminators, purifiers..etc..

give the gk something more than a one-dimensional t3 revolving around slow terminators , and a really bad landraider.

Dreadknight-on hold

However, I'd offer these as suggestions
*NEW*
Elite Inquisitorial Detachment composing of servitors with ranged weapons either heavy bolters, plasma cannons or L.C.s weapons as possible upgrade choices

Elite Assassins detachment (DeathCult assassins (this gives KG variety in their melee department of T3 of having a fast hard hitting but very weak Glasscannon like melee squad while having the option of having a slow sturdy not as hard hitting but slugger melee squads termi varients

give Strikes some useful upgrades, apart from the justicar and his long as fuck cool down support abilities, the trikes compose some of the worst upgrade combinations in the game bar none.

The Justicars abilities are very useful.. giving energy to storm troopers, interceptors, the bro captain, purifiers, the libby, allied units, and taking away from others and slowing them... that is an amazingly unique center piece for GK given they are about buffing and debuffing your opponents. (I do agree there cd is on a bit of the long side however.

Anyways if you want to be outraged you're better off getting angry ASM can lose to catachans in melee. Unarmoured, non-genetically engineered humans with KNIVES.

Oh yea, this shit needs to be fixed because this is pure nonsense even if they are a balancing mechanism for melee... they already can set down explosives, passively infiltratre, explosive shot, get A.V. and knockback entire armies...thank god they aren't going to be 100 hp full modelled squad next patch...

No what they need is a real t3 tank and a real arty unit

Unfortunately both of those are unlikely to happen.. GK utilize land raiders, stormravens dreadknights, and psycannons as means of A.V. And while an artillery unit would be quite nice, the only unit that would be able to become an artillery unit is the purifiers by making them capable of doing something along the lines of raining down fire within an area, and making them a glasscanon along the lines of stickbombaz, however there are many gk players that like how they play now because they are respectively fine as is. The only way the L.R. A.V. problem will be solved along the lines of T3 A.V. units, is via new unit integration.

Heavy Psycannon Dreadknight
Like I suggested above, a servitor like detachment with long ranged weapon upgrade choices -heavy bolters, plasma cannons, lascannons.. the likes...

those are the only ones that would make sense to me and still stay within the lore, Though you could also do something along the lines of giving the L.R. crusader an option of switching out for lascannon sponsons... however that is still hardly an A.V. counter... That takes a ton of resouces to get out on the field, and would really become only relavent in team games. In addition, while I know G.K. are kitted out to be able to deal with most all situations, despite popular belief (their does exist A.V. almost everywhere in this faction) Too much saturation of A.V. everywhere could very much cause balance issues as well

[Forestradio]

Not this again......

The only gap in the GK roster would be countering single entities, for the rest their options are just as good as other races and don't need any big reworks.

The other biggest issue would be the Doom of Malantai deleting everything that's not a dread, but that's more of a case of the DoM being the most trolololol op thing still left in the game.

[Element]

@Forestradio
Lol! I hear yu bru, though I'm not sure you directed that comment at us both or one of us in particular, but to set it straight, never was I stating that more long ranged A.V. was required nor that termis were not sufficient t3 units. I was just constructively continuing off of Salties' remarks and stating the steps needed to create what he was implying he wanted to see more of.
(More diverse infantry in T3 as well as Long ranged A.V.) I don't think there is any problem in just creating idealistic conversation off of his thought

[saltychipmunk]

Not this again......

The only gap in the GK ........... for the rest their options are just as good as other races and don't need any big reworks.

so long as the dread starts with a 40 dps pierce weapon , and the strikes remain a mess of conflicting upgrades i will be strongly disagreeing with you

[Superhooper01]

Please listen to forest he knows his gk info:p

[Element]

@Superhooper

In life, I dont believe anyone should "just" listen to anyone, especially when everyone comes to have their own conceived notion. Listening, hearing out, and taking in what someone has to say is fine, however It's already been established that not everyone agrees with Forest and vice versa. it's part of living in a world with multiple perceptions, that is untill all the the traits the heads of society/ as well as society itself syphons off those alternate beliefs and ways of thinking as people wage conflict over who's idea is best. Using (logic, religion whatever as their support as to why)

So until that time comes where everyone thinks exactly the same, agrees /likes exactly the same, does exactly the same (automatons) I don't expect/want anyone to "just" listen to anybody. Same minded thinking is good, but so is diversity.

[Ace of Swords]

Good thing that balancing isn't done by opionions then but by facts, and this, being a game where there is a clear hierarchy of skill, you should definitively listen to what the player with higher skill and deeper knowledge of game stats and mechanics says.

[Element]

*SMH*

Before it was, listen to my religion

Now it's, Listen to my Facts...

Facts, are crafted from theory, though more analytical data and hence more respectable, than "because I believe it to be so" However their comes a point that even after all the data has been established and presented it becomes open to interpretation (opinion)I'm not saying their aren't times that there exist only one answer. However this is not a straightforward equation. What you see as 1+1 =2 I see as a +b=2.so please don't give me that "hierarchy of players credibility crap based on skill levels"

There does exist in the world people who fully understand something but cannot necessarily do it, and vice versa people who can do something but cannot fully understand it. Dont just use in game player skill as means of "justification" as to why there is only one answer, and is where I stated that you should not just use someone else's understanding as a means of arriving at an answer but rather your own. And if you still agree then that's fine, just like if you don't agree then that's fine too.

[Ace of Swords]

No facts are facts, that's why I openly challenge anyone to a 1v1 if they want to prove something works or doesn't, it's not theory there.

And I think people know by now how direct am I, so I'll straight to the point, if you aren't able to prove what you are saying , and that means in game against the top players your opinion is worthless.

[Torpid]

Just like in academia, if you can't put your religious belief's that you believe to be so true down on paper and show everyone why they're true, then your opinion is utterly meaningless and your constant gripping of it is worthy of mockery.

Seriously though there is obviously an optimal way to play this game. I doubt any of us has discovered it yet though, nevermind being able to put it into practice. Playing a 1v1 might not always be the best way of proving whether somebody is right or wrong though - skill of course factors into that and they may be right about one facet of how to play DOW but wrong in many others and so when they play the game they lose despite being right about what they were arguing for in the first place.

It could be that there is some philosopher of religion out there who has this brilliant proof of why God must exist, but it's so unbelievably complex that he just can't put into words that anybody else could understand. That can be the case with DOW.

Fortunately that's why we have these forums. People can spend 20hours a day writing out massive threads if they like and then they can discuss them with people so that they become more easily comprehensible to all.

[Cheekie Monkie]

No facts are facts, that's why I openly challenge anyone to a 1v1 if they want to prove something works or doesn't, it's not theory there.

And I think people know by now how direct am I, so I'll straight to the point, if you aren't able to prove what you are saying , and that means in game against the top players your opinion is worthless.

Can you clarify what is an opinion and what is a fact? Are only top players able to offer facts, which can be actioned upon, whereas lower skilled players are only able to offer opinions?

The fact whether or not someone is able to beat my ass in a game is irrelevant. There's a billion and one variables that go into winning a match, so it doesn't provide a good control environment to test someone's hypothesis. A higher skilled player's statement doesn't necessarily make a statement true, especially when there's lots of highly skilled players who don't agree with each other!

Now let's look at both sides of the argument. Whilst from a mechanical and balance point of view, Forest's statement (I'll preclude the use of 'facts' and 'opinions' for now) of that there is no need to add more units to the GK roster may be correct, that doesn't mean Anomaly's statement is incorrect.

Diversity, as they say, is the spice of life. I don't think I'll be offending anyone when I say that GK T3 is the most straightforward and predictable endgame out of all the races combined - utilising fat, slow, juggernauts, and only fat, slow, juggernauts. Wanting to add some variety does not mean that the sacred balance cow has to be sacrificed. And no, don't tell me that GK T2 is rich in variety so I can stick to that, because all the other races also have a rich variety of units in T2 and they get to have a lovely T3 roster!

If I'm too low skilled to provide a good argument however, I'd like to direct you a highly skilled player who may be able to sway your thinking in this regard. Caeltos (see how I bolded the name to show adequate reverence to the highly skilled players of the community?) himself is adding the Eversor commander to the GK roster. Was it necessary? Probably not. Ambitious and kickass? Yes.

If only the elite (pun intended) had a say then what you'd have left is an isolated box. The top playas stop us from proposing crazy shit like an Exterminatus global, but us casuals like to keep the game interesting. It's what draws people in and it's what keeps people playing and keeps the community alive.

[Torpid]

@Cheeky

It was implicit within Silenze's post that he was talking about balance and not "general fun" when he said that it was unnecessary for GK to get anymore units than they already have. Forest responded in kind to that.

[Ace of Swords]

Pure theory is useless, when I theorize, when scientists theorize, they do so to make it real, when I talk about builds, when I talk about counters, timings, upgrades it's all stuff I've tried, used against opponents of adequate skills, I could build 10gms against the first random guy I met and beat him with it an X amount of time and claim it's a viable build, or I could do the same and play against torpid,riku,noisy lose and then realize it doesn't work, simply because it's ultimately a game based around timings, you will need your Z counter out after your opponents has purchased Y because you got X in the beginning

Now I agree with torpid that perfection has not yet been reached but there's to say that it won't be reached in our lifetime, why? Because it would require a precision of movements and decision making down to microseconds and perhaps even smaller, it would require an AI that is within the game without any kind of lag, neither from the servers, inputs (mouse & keyboard), voiding your reaction times, but anyway, this is meta talking, and as of now and forever we talk of balance and how to counter and play at the best of our and other players empirical evidence which is all documented by replays,casts and streams.

So, in other words, stop purely theorycrafting, it's useless, go make those builds viable in tournaments, or contact the well known people that are good and ask them for 1s, only then you will realize why the stuff your are theorizing about doesn't work at maximum level of skill avaiable.

And cheeky, what you are saying is irrelevant, GK is not a faction that's yet done, everyone wants to see them having 3 commanders in total, that's why the eversor is being added, and forest has stated GKs still lacks single target damage, but they don't really need anymore anti blobbing - AoE - anti melee units, tweaks to the exsisting ones will do the job.

For the rest, caeltos can do whatever he wants, it's his mod.

[Torpid]

Well theorycrafting isn't useless that's extremely harsh. Theorycrafting is extremely useful as a succinct way of getting across an individual's experiences of the game and predicting from them what will happen in hypothetical scenarios given certain conditions... Basically just like sceintific theories/hypotheses.

I think where people may be going wrong and what you dislike Ace is that they seem to think the can achieve ultimate knowledge purely from theorycrafting, but theorycrafting only works if you already have knowledge gained from your experiences of the game already. This is due to how DOW works and isn't necessarily true for real scientists (physicists for example do not have experiences regarding what they discuss pre-theorycrafting, rather they theorycraft and interpret post-experiences through that theory).

Because Dawn of War games are influenced by things other than individual strategy (which is what theorycrafting tries to perfect) you will never become the perfect DOW player, or ever get close if all you can do is theorycraft. However, if you have no understanding of theory but impeccable micro you'll still fail to get remotely close to the top of the game because you just won't use your micro in any useful way. You don't need to play the game to formulate a brilliant macro to use in it but it sure helps. You do need to play the game if you want a good micro to use in it, there's no alternative.

"So, in other words, stop purely theorycrafting, it's useless, go make those builds viable in tournaments, or contact the well known people that are good and ask them for 1s, only then you will realize why the stuff your are theorizing about doesn't work at maximum level of skill avaiable."

This is false. Theorycrafting is only useless if you want to become the best player in the world with one theory in one go. However continuous theorycrafting while you build up towards to that point and theory-sculpting (!) is necessary before you hit the best, even if its only subconscious, you're doing it. But again it's always based on your experiences so the chances of you having a fantastic theory with time played at high level are very slim. Yet it doesn't mean you can't have one! You may have a great theory about how best to play the game but you just aren't quick enough on your micro to put it into action. Bearing in mind that the chances are you're wrong, if you really really think you're onto something the best thing you can do is contact a pro and ask them if they would try the theory out for you... i.e. go with a specific BO, react to such units with such units, form particular compositions with your army vs a/b/c etc.
Then if they can't get the theory to work and such a player has some of the best micro in the game, well that means your theory sucks dick OR you didn't explain it properly to them/bias on their behalf made them unable to properly utilise it.

So then that gets us back to the problem of "how do I know if this guy is a deluded noob, or a genius with the worst micro ever?". Hard to say, but just because it's hard to say that doesn't mean the genius isn't a genius and isn't saying important stuff.