New Eldar T2 Units

[ChopperMcChopChop]

Turns out I am just a fool. Were I a follower of chaos I would have been chaos spawn by now. For everyone else wanting to wander into this thread, do yourself a favour and do something else more productive. Another formal apology for the upset I created due to my stupidity and having to waste your precious time to correct me. One more round of thanks for everyone who responded, one way or another, even if you just "slapped" me, I asked for it and I can't say I could have restrained myself or act any better.I stand corrected.

Have a lovely day and just FORGET THIS EVER HAPPENED, or marvel, laugh and gossip at my lunacy, whatever.

[Forestradio]

No comment on anything else, but Dark Reapers do have HI armor.

The Dark Reaper barrage does grenade launcher damage, so it's not very good against vehicles (0.25 modifier). It can be used for anti-garrison however.

[Dalakh]

lol man you just want to give everything infiltration !

Seriously now :

Fire Dragons :
I do agree with you, these guys are pretty useless lackluster, whatever people may say all they do can be done much better by other units. My conception of the fire dragon utility is to allow you to get relatively cheap and more efficient AV if you get to T2 without your shuri platform. Problem is they are not more efficient, they are quite hard to use, they bleed you dry, and don't do much else.

Fire dragons are pretty good AV but eldar don't need more AV, they need alternative snares. Right now WS are still a go-to unit for snaring and that feels wrong.

What FD ABOLUTELY need first of all is fleet of foot (doesn't stack with their ability speedwise). Their ability has quite a long cooldown and with such a close range/squishy unit you really need the escape mechanism that is FoF (right now you might have to waste the offensive ability just to get away which is quite stupid).

Then what I would like to see is FD have a melta bomb that snares and does some damage and (if that's possible) make it not stack with the haywire. That way eldar have access to a snare without having to go straight to WS in the terminator/power armour matchups.

Dark reapers :
If you read the next patch's notes you can see that DR will get a range increase which is quite awesome IMO. They are quite good to pressure terminators and in the power armour matchups in general (especially if your opponent goes heavy on melee/jump troops and WG are just not an option). They need to be used in cunjonction with DA shields if you face a lot of fire power.

[ChopperMcChopChop]

lol man you just want to give everything infiltration !

Was just suggesting things, not implying to ADD everything I suggested. The underlined sections are more realistic interpretations. Otherwise, FoF wouldn't quite cut it either IMO. They are still incredibly squishy and need to get in close range...

No comment on anything else, but Dark Reapers do have HI armor.

Huh, didn't notice ty. Fixing that. Though they still seem incredibly squishy despite that.

[Atlas]

I feel like some of the OP is a bit off target.

Dark Reapers are silly good especially with the numerous kinds of support the eldar army can give them. On top of that, next patch they only going to get better in my opinion.

As for Fire Dragons, I feel like there's potential there that's not being utilized. Probably the biggest plus of them is just how cheap they are. 300/25 is the same cost as a warrior squad(minus the exarch). This makes it very easy to get fire dragons AND some other purchase. Not being an eldar expert, I think dragons + falcon makes for a pretty potent combination that doesn't utterly kill your wallet. I just feel that people need to play with them more before we can say they're totally useless.

[Dalakh]

Was just suggesting things, not implying to ADD everything I suggested. The underlined sections are more realistic interpretations. Otherwise, FoF wouldn't quite cut it either IMO. They are still incredibly squishy and need to get in close range...

They have their Dragon's fury ability to get in close range, what they need is the escape mechanism that is FoF.

[Torpid]

They're both overpowered imo.

Have you even SEEN the dps of fire dragons? Don't charge after tanks/transports with them. That ain't going to work. Use them vs jump squads, melee walkers/bloodcrushers or big tanky melee units and they absolutely dominate. Eldar synergise greatly with FDs as they're a race that has a lot of tools to force the enemy to bring the fight to them -> Rangers, brightlances, energy shields, upgraded WLs, falcons, wraithguard, fire prisms, d-cannons...

Their ability has quite a long cooldown and with such a close range/squishy unit you really need the escape mechanism that is FoF (right now you might have to waste the offensive ability just to get away which is quite stupid).

Fire Dragons should not be in a situation in which they needed to use their ability to escape. Fire dragons are not frontline units, they're fire support. Jump squads should never be able to jump them, instead they should be jumping shurikens or banshees. Fire dragons await behind ready to unleash their mental dps on anything that jumps in and then use their ability to counter-push afterwards.

[ChopperMcChopChop]

They're both OP damnit. L2P eldar.

Have you even SEEN the dps of fire dragons? Don't charge after tanks/transports with them. That ain't going to work. Use them vs jump squads, melee walkers/bloodcrushers or big tanky melee units and they absolutely dominate. Eldar synergise greatly with FDs as they're a race that has a lot of tools to force the enemy to bring the fight to them -> Rangers, brightlances, energy shields, upgraded WLs, falcons, wraithguard, fire prisms, d-cannons...

Their ability has quite a long cooldown and with such a close range/squishy unit you really need the escape mechanism that is FoF (right now you might have to waste the offensive ability just to get away which is quite stupid).

No it isn't stupid. You're stupid for putting them in a situation in which they needed to use their ability to escape. Fire dragons are not frontline units, they're fire support. Jump squads should never be able to jump them, instead they should be jumping shurikens or banshees. Fire dragons await behind ready to unleash their mental dps on anything that jumps in and then use their ability to counter-push afterwards.

They shred tanks and transports quicky I know, it's vs walkers they don't do much though. Why would jump squads go after your banshees again? Ain't banshees the meele deterent? And what stops the enemy ranged units to melt the dragons down once the shuri has been disrupted? What stops the walkers from just pounding your dragons? Why bother taking fire dragons when I can just haywire the walker and guide/crackshot my BL (usually upgraded from a shuri) it down? They didn't do much good vs anything else than light transports/tanks, then again it's entirely possible for me to use them poorly or play poorly.
I am by no means l33t, just found it difficult to implement them in-game, often finding the old combos with warp spiders/exarch shees/hero/bright lance/bright lance WL more effective. I've yet to see someone use them efficiently also, manage to do ok with reapers though. They can do some nice DPS, once they are focused though they are going down, not much kiting abilities and squishy.

I feel like some of the OP is a bit off target.

Dark Reapers are silly good especially with the numerous kinds of support the eldar army can give them. On top of that, next patch they only going to get better in my opinion.

As for Fire Dragons, I feel like there's potential there that's not being utilized. Probably the biggest plus of them is just how cheap they are. 300/25 is the same cost as a warrior squad(minus the exarch). This makes it very easy to get fire dragons AND some other purchase. Not being an eldar expert, I think dragons + falcon makes for a pretty potent combination that doesn't utterly kill your wallet. I just feel that people need to play with them more before we can say they're totally useless.

I actually agree, perhaps I am too acustomed to the old methods and didn't adapt accordingly with them. I am not a big fan of the falcon though, such a squishy and expensive transport unit. Without the T3 bubble that is. Perhaps the falcon is what you need to get them going. Perhaps I was too hasty in judging them..perhaps the game was already lost before even purchasing them. I still think both units could use a few buffs and tweaks. Stormtroopers do good DPS as well and have a melta bomb too WITH inflitration, why can't fire dragons get a melta bomb? Why must we always rely on warp spiders for haywire bombs?

[BaptismByLoli]

New Eldar T2 units are amazing.

Fire Dragons can and will own stuff if you can kite and use them for fire support as previously stated by Torpid. Try using them like Melta Storms without the Infil and Melta bomb but with increased speed and DPS. (P.S. Ranger Holo Fields) Their really good just under appreciated/rarely used effectively. They can literally bring any walker to half health if its snared. Increased Melta Range is also always fun and abusive.

Dark Reapers use inferno rounds which unlike plasma gun, does full damage to normal infantry on top of (S)HI. They are also faster firing compared to both plasma gun and TCSM ad have more models which equals to more DPS. Their abilities are even good, capable of causing suppression. Having them behind energy shields or covered by a wall of DA and they can deplete infantry in a matter of seconds.

Remember, fragility and specialty are the weaknesses of the Eldar. Don't expect any of them to be all-purpose or hardy frontline units.

[Torpid]

I was going to post a replay but board quota reached. How do I solve this?

[Tsototar]

Stormtroopers do good DPS as well and have a melta bomb too WITH inflitration, why can't fire dragons get a melta bomb? Why must we always rely on warp spiders for haywire bombs?

because the sky would fall, apparently

i think if you spend any time at all reading forum posts you'll see that basically any proposed buff to any aspect of the Eldar would lead to cries of dismay by everyone else because apparently it would end up with the skies raining frogs and plagues of locusts swarming around the planet and total economic collapse in real life.

Lascannons - vehicle snare AND vehicle damage? OK!

stormtroopers - infiltration AND vehicle snare AND vehicle damage? OK!

Eldar - vehicle damage AND vehicle snare? NOOOO IT WOULD BE THE END OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN

That said, dark reapers are genuinely useful against Heavy Infantry, and fire dragons can really help (most other walkers can defeat a Wraithlord, for example, especially if all their whining leads to the brightlance getting nerfed). Although I do rely on the "old combinations" a lot, I am glad for the flexibility afforded by the new units.

Basically think of it this way - the galaxy (and forums is full of envious, jealous cretins who toss and turn every night unable to sleep because deep down inside their hearts they can see the true glory that is the Eldar to which they cannot compare, and so want to ruin that which they cannot be...

so if you want to survive in the grim darkness that is the 41st millenium as Eldar, you just have to be better.

[Torpid]

The wraithlord with the brightlance beats every walker in T2 except the khorne dreadnought...

The brightlance set-up team gets an ability that aids with fighting infantry while simultaneously doing more dps than other set-up teams that snare. Furthermore it is part of the eldar composition which includes very powerful counter-initiation from every single hero wargear, grenades that dire avengers have, banshees, fire dragons and dark reapers all of which make using melee to deal with the anti-vehicle set-up team unwise. Using ranged is likewise not very useful due to energy shields. Other races don't have these factors to aid their set-up team.

Stormtroopers are pretty garbage by the way. They get infiltration, melta dps and a snare, but they're extremely disproportionately requisition heavy in their cost, very fragile and have pitifully short range.

[Nurland]

Just addressing some statements I have seen in this thread.

Bloodraged Kdread is probably the only T2 walker capable of taking on a BL WL.

And when it comes to Brighlance weapons teams, they are faster, the platform is die last member and they have an anti low model count/single entity ability and still the highest dps of AV setups (not by far but still).

DR do not get outgunned by their counterparts. I would say the opposite actually. The superior range, high dps and FoF make them shoot the crap out of all things infantry.

Apparently Torpid beat me to this though

[ChopperMcChopChop]

bla

[ChopperMcChopChop]

The wraithlord with the brightlance beats every walker in T2 except the khorne dreadnought...

Yeah I find him quite silly, think the problem is he keeps his meele resistance aura when he upgrades to BL unlike a SM dread to melta or CSM Dread to Tzeentch if I am not mistaken.

Stormtroopers do good DPS as well and have a melta bomb too WITH inflitration, why can't fire dragons get a melta bomb? Why must we always rely on warp spiders for haywire bombs?

because the sky would fall, apparently

i think if you spend any time at all reading forum posts you'll see that basically any proposed buff to any aspect of the Eldar would lead to cries of dismay by everyone else because apparently it would end up with the skies raining frogs and plagues of locusts swarming around the planet and total economic collapse in real life.

Lascannons - vehicle snare AND vehicle damage? OK!

stormtroopers - infiltration AND vehicle snare AND vehicle damage? OK!

Eldar - vehicle damage AND vehicle snare? NOOOO IT WOULD BE THE END OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN

That said, dark reapers are genuinely useful against Heavy Infantry, and fire dragons can really help (most other walkers can defeat a Wraithlord, for example, especially if all their whining leads to the brightlance getting nerfed). Although I do rely on the "old combinations" a lot, I am glad for the flexibility afforded by the new units.

Basically think of it this way - the galaxy (and forums is full of envious, jealous cretins who toss and turn every night unable to sleep because deep down inside their hearts they can see the true glory that is the Eldar to which they cannot compare, and so want to ruin that which they cannot be...

so if you want to survive in the grim darkness that is the 41st millenium as Eldar, you just have to be better.

Yeah, seems legit. Well to be honest, as I said, I just found the older combinations better, also, I really haven't seen any replay of people using these new units to good effect (though Dark Reapers really are more than meh for sure)...then again, I suppose most good players don't bother to send them in or I just didn't look hard enough. Whatever is the case, this whole thread summarizes to this:

I'm a scrub and need to get back in my cave, don't complain, get better. Alrighty then, I had a hunch I shouldn't have tried to post this so prematurely and solely from my pitiful experience (as I said replays didn't help me either), but I remembered this community used to pride itself with its good attitude so why not give it a shot. Well it's good to know "Elite Mod" is more than just a name. NOT to discredit people who were genuinely critical in a constructive way and didn't attempt to humiliate me right away or didn't at all (you know who you are awesome gentlemen).
Eh, it can't all be fun and rainbows. I might have sounded all knowing as well, which I am not; also did some fair share of mistakes, I ain't guilt free for sure. Ohhhh well, thanks again for everyone who approached this patiently and wrote kindly, thanks to those who treated me like an egg head as well, you reminded me something important and the beauty of the internet (I also asked for this treatment a bit haha).

May you all have a marvelous day further on and forgive me for wasting your time.

So much for this thread, can be locked for all I care.

[BaptismByLoli]

O_o

Take a deep breath man. Ace, Riku and Torpid are pretty nice as far as I can tell but if they keep seeing mistakes, fallacies, false remarks and plain trolling it can get to them.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[ChopperMcChopChop]

O_o

Take a deep breath man. Ace, Riku and Torpid are pretty nice as far as I can tell but if they keep seeing mistakes, fallacies, false remarks and plain trolling it can get to them.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

Yes, as I said I have my own fault for making mistakes, kind of asked for it really. My own apologies for startling people due to providing misleading or plain wrong info.

[BaptismByLoli]

A good start would probably be posting in the Strategy Discussion on, 'How to Fire Dragon and Dark Reapers?' rather than jumping straight to conclusion after a game or two testing them out.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Bahamut]

I was going to post a replay but board quota reached. How do I solve this?

upload to GR and paste link instead

[Caeltos]

@OP
Don't worry, your opinion is just as valid as everybody else. Thanks for the feedback.

[ChopperMcChopChop]

A good start would probably be posting in the Strategy Discussion on, 'How to Fire Dragon and Dark Reapers?' rather than jumping straight to conclusion after a game or two testing them out.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

It was more games coupled with a hefty ammount of replays where people failed to use them efficiently or the casters had mixed thoughts about the units, OBVIOUSLY, NOT enough. Overall though, you are right, it would have been a better and wiser ideea and I still acted too prematurely.

@OP
Don't worry, your opinion is just as valid as everybody else. Thanks for the feedback.

Why thank you merciful Caeltos Lord. Though you probably said it to make me feel better, hope you managed to read all of that before I edited it as well. Keep doing what you do! All the best wishes to both you and everyone else involved in this wonderful mod.

[Torpid]

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=298362

Fire dragons. Use them defensively and with falcons.

[Sub_Zero]

I read your initial post and couldn't reply in time. You should not have done what you did. My response will be quick. Wraithguard is your best choice against ranged units/transports/tanks. But they can't reliably hit moving targets. That is where these 2 units shine. I would only use dark reapers to counter nobz, melee terminators etc because if I they are to fight in ranged combat they will be weakened really fast despite their heavy armor (and the tier they come from is rich of anti-HI tools, so this armor becomes a liability). The same thing happens with fire dragons. I would only use them to kite walkers. I would never use them against a transport/tank. I think the units perform their anti-melee duty really well with some nice chasing capabilities (fire dragons) and extra utility (dark reapers with their long range barrages and suppressive fire)

P. S. Feel free to propose anything you want. That is what this forum for. You should not have given up so easily to these arrogant squires (aces of words...) and alike. When the forum is silent it is boring. Discussions must always take place.

[ChopperMcChopChop]

I read your initial post and couldn't reply in time. You should not have done what you did. My response will be quick. Wraithguard is your best choice against ranged units/transports/tanks. But they can't reliably hit moving targets. That is where these 2 units shine. I would only use dark reapers to counter nobz, melee terminators etc because if I they are to fight in ranged combat they will be weakened really fast despite their heavy armor (and the tier they come from is rich of anti-HI tools, so this armor becomes a liability). The same thing happens with fire dragons. I would only use them to kite walkers. I would never use them against a transport/tank. I think the units perform their anti-melee duty really well with some nice chasing capabilities (fire dragons) and extra utility (dark reapers with their long range barrages and suppressive fire)

P. S. Feel free to propose anything you want. That is what this forum for. You should not have given up so easily to these arrogant squires (aces of words...) and alike. When the forum is silent it is boring. Discussions must always take place.

I already understood what I wanted from this thread, basically, that fire dragons don't suck that badly ( I actually had great succes using Farseer gateway cloak+sprint to surprise transports and kill them in the blink of an eye, or WSE group teleport, not so much succes vs walkers though, IRONICALLY, which was my initial problem, sort of) and that dark reapers are actually better than I thought, which they are indeed! No point in making people debate for no reason.

If anything from my initial long ass post is worth reproducing...would be the following:

-melta bombs for fire dragons
-exarch missile ability on dark reapers to be some sort of "right in me crosshairs" from Kommando Nob + Whirlwind Hunter Killer Missile ability, seeing as they already get the range bonus buff in next patch.

As for everything else, I was either wrong or layed out erronated info, which triggered the arrogant or very detail oriented people, also known as pedantic I do believe. To be expected.

Thanks again.

[Tsototar]

The wraithlord with the brightlance beats every walker in T2 except the khorne dreadnought...

yes, exactly, with brightlance. the brightlance for which there's a thread with people all calling for it to be nerfed. an Eldar unit that can actually win 1 on 1 their opposing unit? we can't let that stand oh no

[BaptismByLoli]

They still retain their melee resistance compared to other walkers when getting ranged upgrades on-top of having their melee damage output unchanged. Furthermore, Even without their brightlance, Wraithlords still do the highest amount of damage to a single entity walker-wise.

They're really good. Brightlance just makes this even better because you can do 100% AV damage to an opposing walker before they can even enter melee. And if it's a ranged melta dread etc, the melta dread loses his melee trait and has reduced melee damage making him more easy for the Wraithlord to own. So its either turn around and not contribute or get snaring AV for the (C)SM etc.

an Eldar unit that can actually win 1 on 1 their opposing unit? we can't let that stand oh no

Banshees own every t1 melee but heretics in 1v1
DA owns GM, Shoota and get grenades and shields vs them not to mention their Embolden ability.
Weapon platform does the most damage and is the fastest set-up team.
Rangers owns Scouts
Wraithguards owns every t1-t2 unit in a ranged firefight
Warp Spiders have one of the highest piercing damage and teleport allowing them to screw with lone melee or ranged squads in 1v1
FD have Fusion Guns (Melta Guns on Steroids)
Dark Reapers get more abilities, models and higher DPS than TCSM
Falcon is a quick transport with both AI and AV that can later get an energy shield
Seer Councils can cause trouble for everything but Clawminators and Paladins
D-Cannon has highest range and an amazing arty ability
Fire Prism has longest range of all the tanks and is also quite mobile. Good AI(Knockback) as well.

I have no idea what you're talking about, saying that Eldar lose in a 1v1 vs their respective counterpart.

[Ace of Swords]

It's not just a problem of walkers though, that would be fine, the problem is that the brightlance renders any kind of transport play useless making the WL the braindead T2 purchase almost always.

[Nurland]

Yeah. Problem being it annihilates transports, other melee and ranged walkers and melee infantry with the BL upgrade. While being cheaper than most other heavier ranged/melee walkers. It just does so much.

[Tsototar]

It was pointed out in another thread (by Torpid? IIRC) that engagements normally aren't one on one so the utility of this sort of discussion is limited (plus matters of cost etc.)... but here goes.

Banshees own every t1 melee but heretics in 1v1
--> ASM that get off a jump? Catas? Sluggas with burners that get in shots? Don't factor in "complete surprise ambushes". Tactical marines are not melee, don't forget - but even Tac marines can beat shees if they get enough shots off before they approach.

DA owns GM, Shoota and get grenades and shields vs them not to mention their Embolden ability.
--> "owns"? You exaggerate, sir. grenades - it takes a very distracted player to not be able to dodge a grenade that's not part of a combo.

shields have been nerfed from retail and you're not required to fight them in the direction they want to fight.

Waagh.

Weapon platform does the most damage and is the fastest set-up team.
--> hand on heart, you'd prefer a Shuri to Havocs with instasuppress?

Rangers owns Scouts
--> only if guardians have put shields up for them, and there's no way to increase health and add an extra model that dies last, or add a grenade.

Wraithguards owns every t1-t2 unit in a ranged firefight
--> and those ranged units will charge in to melee them to stop it happening, yes?

Warp Spiders have one of the highest piercing damage and teleport allowing them to screw with lone melee or ranged squads in 1v1
--> ... and look at them funny and they lose models. spiders move slowly if they're not teleporting, and their damage is high but it's not an instagib either. If a spider squad is killing your guys before you have the chance to run, you're either not paying attention or you shouldn't have let them out with that low HP?

Dark Reapers get more abilities, models and higher DPS than TCSM
--> you're seriously comparing a T2 unit with a T1 unit?
EDIT: ok I read that as "Tacs" for some reason. But you're comparing the DR specifically with the units it's meant to kill, i.e. heavy infantry shooters.


Falcon is a quick transport with both AI and AV that can later get an energy shield
not as quick as a Trukk, and because not as cheap can be a real disaster if you lose it. "AI and AV" is overselling it, enemies have to respond but they're not going to be terrified the way a vehicle running into a Lascannon would be, for example. Shield upgrade - if you live that long.

Seer Councils can cause trouble for everything but Clawminators and Paladins

"cause trouble", how wonderful. You're also forgetting Nobz, T2 units like Ogryns can put up quite a fight,

D-Cannon has highest range and an amazing arty ability
Fire Prism has longest range of all the tanks and is also quite mobile. Good AI(Knockback) as well.

And Avatar loses to - Swarmlord, GUO, HammerTerms, levelled upgraded Nobz (all of which can choose their engagement, i.e. they can run and Avatar can't catch them), and kiting LR and Baneblades (lol, a kiting superheavy ).

I have no idea what you're talking about, saying that Eldar lose in a 1v1 vs their respective counterpart.

You've played all this time and never had a Wraithlord (no lance) fight a Dread before? Every now and then it's nice to have something that can stand it's ground and not have to result in a frenzy of clicking everytime something appears.

It's repeated ad nauseam that everything Eldar depends on "combos". That's great, and I like it, and that's part of the reason why I like playing them. But that also means things collapse if you can take out any part of the chain (e.g. the spiders carry the haywire so if everyone focus fires on them first, your dreads have free reign to enter/leave).

[Tsototar]

It's not just a problem of walkers though, that would be fine, the problem is that the brightlance renders any kind of transport play useless making the WL the braindead T2 purchase almost always.

this is true. I now default to a WL with lance in T2 if the other side has any vehicles. 100% fotm accuracy I think is a tad much. See? I'm not a crazed Eldar species-ist.

what I've found in engagements now is that they start off with a melta on my WL though (often when I'm careless with detectors), so it's not like it's completely uncounterable.