Chaos Build orders?

[Ven]

im in the process of learning chaos, and so far im loving it. the chaos lord fits my playstyle to a T and the race is relatively a snug fit aswell. one thing im lacking however is proper variation in my build orders. please keep in mind that 90% of the time i play in 3v3s, and that other 10% is 2v2s. i suck at 1v1s and dont like them. so assume all this im about to say is in a 3v3 or 2v2 scenario.

my usual build order:

Double CSM -> Raptors, to counter ranged blobs.

there are some occasions where i get havocs instead of raptors, but this is somwhat rare, i almost never get noise marines, if i do get them i get them in T2 for the blastmaster.

if im VS IG i will always get a combi flamer up instead of AC on my tics, and i will use my tics almost exclusively for counter initiation and worship.

if im vs SM/chaos/GK, i will invest heavily in my CL with the armor of rage and dark halo (and lightning claws in late-ish T2, this allows me to counter set up teams but i usually get raptors anyway as they're awesome. this ofcource puts me behind in tech by a sizable chunk considering i almost always without fail get AC on my tics vs these 3 factions, and always get eternal war on my CSM whoever im up against either in T1 or when im in the process of researching T2. i very rarely get nades on my tics, but do sometimes, but usually if i cant get them in to melee vs double shootas for example; i opt to have them as a support unit, capping stuff and worshiping etc instead of spending power to keep them useful in combat.

i almost never get more than one heretic squad as i feel like one CSM is underwhelming at best, i feel like i NEED 2 of them usually. the only time i get double heretic opening with CSM inbetween is VS SM as i can take advantage of their lack of units out of the gate, unless they go double scouts in which case.. then well.... blehhh. first engagement ill almost always win still unless im half asleep but once shotguns pop up.... i guess its good in that it discourages my opponent going double snipers and bleeding my CSM dry.

also another problem i have is with this build i spend a lot of power and req in T1, usually im only slightly slower than my teammates going in to T2 after looking at some replays, and with all this req cost i usually get anywhere between 0-2 gens/nodes up in T1, which in turn means my teammates needs to buy them. i did not have that problem with other races.


in T2 i will almost always get bloodletters OR a dread depending what im up against, if i need AV i get some lascannon havocs. sometimes im a bit adventurous and get double autocannon havocs supported with a khorne shrine or two. due to my heavy T1 bloodcrushers are almost never viable and i dont value plague marines very highly, as usually the lascannon snare from havocs, with raptor power fist; all coupled with khorne worship is enough to chase down and snare any vehicle. if i didnt get the armor of rage in T1 for my CL then i will almost always get armor of the inferno as the damage is amazing vs ranged blobs of regular infantry, makes him in to a boss power bashing unit and the knockback is still great if im vs SM and the likes, but if im vs SM/GK/chaos i would of likely already purchased the armor of rage in T1.

in T3, usually i go straight for either a GUO or termies, depending what im feeling like. unless they have a lack of AV in which case ill go for a pred. i NEVER EVER get a phobos, i see no reason why i should. a single tzeetch pred is both more mobile and cheaper and a guo is only 100req and 40 power more than a phobos. most of the time i forget the phobos even exists.

thoughts? suggestions?

[ChrisNihilus]

if im VS IG i will always get a combi flamer up instead of AC on my tics, and i will use my tics almost exclusively for counter initiation and worship.

Versus IG Noise Marines are awesome. I really suggest you to try them.
Anyway you can give Cultists some ranged weapons; is a cheap upgrade and can do a lot of damage to them.

[Nurland]

Tpred costs a lot less pop and less req than phobos and is more mobile but has a lot less firepower and hp. GUO is usually the safer choice though.

I personally dislike double csm builds as they eat up a lot of pop and upkeep and are pretty boring. They are viable and all that but personally i feel that double heretic and one csm is usually way way better. Worship and repair support is just so much better with that build.

Bubble CL is pretty legit in most MUs though I tend to go for different kinds of kit outs usually.

Noise marines are great in almost every MU depending on your opponent's build order.

[Torpid]

2 CSM, havocs and noise marines wrecks the IG T1 and scales really really well alongside some plague marines/Tdread.

[Ven]

2 CSM, havocs and noise marines wrecks the IG T1 and scales really really well alongside some plague marines/Tdread.

Noise marines are great in almost every MU depending on your opponent's build order.

Versus IG Noise Marines are awesome. I really suggest you to try them.
Anyway you can give Cultists some ranged weapons; is a cheap upgrade and can do a lot of damage to them.

well my problem with noise marines is that they're the perfect ranged blob counter, but i can never get them close enough before they're forced off and i feel like raptors with their suppression coupled with 2 CSM and a CL is enough to counter any ranged blob, as its supression in a specific area and tieing up a unit at the same time, havocs i get if i want to support teammates and play more defensively, but my playstlye is aggressive so i only occasinally get them.

Tpred costs a lot less pop and less req than phobos and is more mobile but has a lot less firepower and hp. GUO is usually the safer choice though.

well i learn the basics of the game from SM, so i have grown used to the lascannon pred being my mobile AV platform, i just feel like the phobos is too slow to chase down units, doesnt have any supportive abilites like the other LRs, which is usually why i got them, vulnerable to nukes and manti strikes etc, and i can also not get one alongside a guo, where as i can with a pred. i see no reason to ever get one; perhaps if it had a retreat becon but no reinforcement i'd consider it but thats a balance topic so yea.

I personally dislike double csm builds as they eat up a lot of pop and upkeep and are pretty boring. They are viable and all that but personally i feel that double heretic and one csm is usually way way better. Worship and repair support is just so much better with that build.

well the thing is that even with AC, come T2 my tics spend 80% of their time repairing and worshiping anyway, once T2 starts and scary stuff hits the field i just feel like they dont have the durability, even with AC to be a viable combat unit, atleast anything outside of counter initiation, and i feel that yes nade launchers are awesome and i love the ability, but if you tics are hit by a manti or forcused down for even a few seconds; even if they have AC and are in backlines then they get wiped/forced to retreat which imo is a waste of 20 power, i could get the blastmaster, armor of the inferno or any other distruption options like that for only 10 more power on units with a lot more staying power. while the nade barrage does counter ranged blobs well and and can be used to counter melee, the CL and doomblast tics are supposed to be melee counters, and raptors which i almost always get counter ranged blobs enough as it is with the instant supression, so with the supression from both doomblast and raptors, thats the reason why i rarely get havocs, chaos already has enough supression in T1 i dont feel like i need a setup team for it, espeically when every faction has a natural counter to it and things like catachans will be a blind purchase for a IG player in T1.5 vs chaos.

Bubble CL is pretty legit in most MUs though I tend to go for different kinds of kit outs usually.

usually i go for lightning claws/armor of rage/dark halo vs SM/GK/chaos as it shreads their infantry, i might also get that build vs nids perhaps, but sometimes i like the bloodmaul vs nids/orks if i didnt already buy the combi flamer in T1, which is a weapon i love. by build usually varies vs other races, usually i will go for combi flamer/armor of the inferno and then opt to not get an accessory and get a unit instead in T2, if i do get a accessory it'll likely be demonic visage as its a nice passive and i guess can be a soft counter initiator if my CL is sitting back shooting stuff with combi flamer and someone jumps my infantry nearby.

[BaptismByLoli]

my problem with noise marines is that they're the perfect ranged blob counter, but i can never get them close enough before they're forced off

Chaos Lord for tanking and disruption, Heretics for either Grenade Barrage Disruption and/or Worship for that speed boost on all of your units (ie Noise Marines).

Profit.

[Torpid]

Honestly, if you go noise marine + havoc and the IG goes catachans, she has to play much much much much much much better than you to win and you ought to be ashamed if you lose, especially in team games where there's practically no room to flank.

And I agree with you about noise marines. They do tend to get shot to bits on approach, but that's the thing - they're not really anti-range, there more anti-melee surprisingly. Sure they can shut-down ranged weapons but they have low range themselves so they can be kited and shot down, except when its a 1v1 fight in which case they're great. On the other hand they have amazing splash damage and their damage type burns through heavy armour plus they get on-demand knockback which makes them, in my opinion, better vs melee/shotgun scouts/catachans (which are both anti-melee ranged units with low range) than vs ranged units. A suppression team is an effective counter to noise marines in any 1v1 scenario - costs less and bleeds less. I personally like to use noise marines like catachans. I use havocs to deal with ranged blobs.

Going back to the 2x sent/havoc/nm combo vs IG. Between the havocs shutting down their GM blob and stopping their sentinel from pressing forward and the 2 csm very quickly dropping GM models and pressuring the sent where need be, this makes it incredibly easy for the nm to move forward and do mad damage to the GM/catachans. They really screw catachans though since they stop them using their abilities too. Then you go for 1 KCSM, 1 TCSM, a BM and a autocannon havoc and you've countered everything the IG can get in T2. The BM wrecks upgraded GM, stormtroopers, ogryns and chimeras. The autocannon similarly, except it doesn't do much vs ogryns and is shorter range than the BM so it is more susceptible to getting naded by stormtroopers, on the other hand it does a real number on guardsmen - so always keep tics nearby to them and blob the BM/autocannon together to deal with the chimera easily as well as prevent stormtrooper nades.

Then get a plague marine squad - their ranged dps is nice vs IG and their durability likewise, IG win by bleeding you to bits and teching ahead. Plague marines are so useful here. Their snare is so good vs IG vehicles (PM snare + KCSM >>> chimera) including sentinels. Their passive slow helps deal with ogryns and protect Tdreads from them and they're mobile ranged dps outside of csm/terminators

Then you get a Tdread because its anti-infantry damage is ridiculously good vs IG squads. Its ability is downright broken - you can wipe stormtroopers/catachans instantly - and it can solo a leman russ, nevermind if you have autocannon/bm/plague marine support too.

Don't try to out-tech the IG that won't work. Stick in T2 and be forceful. Push against the IG repeatedly in both t1 and t2. Be relentless and don't be too concerned about bleed so long as you can get their gens. Constantly be bashing gens so they can't tech to T3. If they (IG) get stuck in T2 for too long they will run out of req as they will be forced to meat-shield with their guardsmen/ogryns a lot. IG's T2 composition will beat chaos' if they are economically equal, however this should never be the case because chaos' T1 is far superior to that of IGs. Use the 2x csm, havocs+nm to bash their power constantly and bleed their catachans/spotters/hwt as much as possible.

Easy MU, made easier in team games where the IG has to fight you head-on.

[Raffa]

In team games vs IG imo, as someone new to Chaos, your safest bet is with the PC. He lets you compete in the war of attrition with IG and it's a real bitch for the IG to dig your PC+CSM out of heavy cover.

Personally I like to go CSM->Havoc->Raptor. You can upgrade the PC for 25 power to get a Bile Spewer for genbashing if you win an engagement which makes this MU very dangerous to the IG's tech as this is one of the harder MUs for them anyway. PC with the Bile Spewer just melts Catachans too.

Raptors just mess up IG in general and buy time for havocs to advance, setup and start suppressing all their infantry. Your Bile Spewer PC follows up along with your CSM while your heretics try to keep as much in worship range as possible.

I don't really get a lot of problems vs IG with Chaos unless it's a smart Inquisitor, who can counter-initiate against Raptors, infiltrate and possibly stun your havoc.

[Atlas]

Can we please stop talking about Chaos vs IG? You people are giving all those players good tips and it's just going to ruin my fun

I don't know, I just feel like 2xcsm -> raptor is just really heavy, just like 2 tac-asm. Sure it'll work, but usually because you're opponent doesn't invest as hard into t1 as you just did.

[Ven]

Can we please stop talking about Chaos vs IG? You people are giving all those players good tips and it's just going to ruin my fun

I don't know, I just feel like 2xcsm -> raptor is just really heavy, just like 2 tac-asm. Sure it'll work, but usually because you're opponent doesn't invest as hard into t1 as you just did.

sure its heavy, but its not going to be as POWER heavy as say, upgraded tics alongsite noisemarines AND havocs AND eternal war. and while double tacs in to ASM is heavy, thats still 150 req, 10 power more than double CSM in to raptors, which allows for an extra gen.

usually with this build, in most of the replays ive saved i go T2 about the same time as everyone else on my team. if i am late its either because im floating T1, embracing my inner indrid; or because of a couple of raptor model losses.

[Superhooper01]

Hm try tics,csm, noise marines raptors. This allows to to handle most problems tier 1 just prepare for vehicle rush so try get havoc with laz or pm in tier 2 quick. Get a gl on tics if u need more disruption or ac if u need help vs melee builds.

[Torpid]

Hm try tics,csm, noise marines raptors. This allows to to handle most problems tier 1 just prepare for vehicle rush so try get havoc with laz or pm in tier 2 quick. Get a gl on tics if u need more disruption or ac if u need help vs melee builds.

Dual sents though. 2 Sents + cats as LG or a HWT + 2 sents + brazier/power sword as IQ/LC is going to wreck that build.

[Superhooper01]

Yeah u are right torpid. Dealing with 2 sents as chaos is something i often have to deal with usual i get 2 scm with eternal war and 2 gl tics along with a havoc,just if the 2 sents get both their rocket/grenades launchers then those poor tics will be blown apart if u drop micro as well as the 2 csm but im sure u are wise to that:p