Sentinels and Vehicle Armour

[bountyhunter571]

Hello Folks

Since im playing IG, I wished that Sentinels could be made more durable. In the very first games, I thought that this shouldn't be a problem with respect to balance. But with time my knowledge about the game improved, and I began to see that the implementation of this upgrade would not be as simple as I initially thought it would be. I know, that it is possible to make sentinels stay alive until t3 with extremely good micro and in the right situations when there are no counters fielded. But often, there is not much to do about it in t2 when literally everything is able to inflict serious damage to sentinels, especially with anti vehicle weaponary coming up which also is disabling sents and seriously damaging them. So what I would like to do is to start a discussion about what you guys think what should be necessarily considered to equip sentinels with vehicle armour, in order to propose an implementation to Caeltos and the developers team. The reason for that is, that I'd love to play an imperial guard build order that would be even more based on vehicles throughout the game, especially in t2.

1. Transition

I think the most severe problem in this case is the fact, that the vehicle armour to sentinels could inflict severe transition problems. Most sentinels already level up in tier 1, and the vehicle armour would open the strategy to build like 4 sentinels, drop a repair bunker and upgrade them to vehicle armour in t2, which would be extremely hard to counter. To be honest, I don't like the idea to restrict Sentinels to a distinct number like Terminators or Whirlwinds, but apart from the correct pricing of vehicle armour this could be the solution in this case. Restricting them to 3 should be a viable solution, although I think that with a correct pricing there should be no issues that an infinite amount of sentinels are equipped with vehicle armour. Also, if it is technically possible, I would also suggest to increase the population cost if sentinels are upgraded. For the moment, sentinels have 15 population, and I would suggest an increase to 20 when the armour is applied. 4 Sentinels would make 80 population, so apart from 2 gm and 4 sents the imperial guard player is almost popcapped and can hardly drop a bunker (which also costs population).

2. Speed of Sentinels

It is obvious, that Sentinels with vehicle armour and the same speed as in tier1 would be ridicoulously overpowered. As it stands, sentinels have speed 8 in tier 1. I would propose a speed nerf if vehicle armour was implemented. For comparison, Dreadnoughts, Wraithlords and Deff Dreads have speed 4.5, Chimera and Banewolf have Speed 8 also and the falcon has speed 7.5 (following the codex). I would propose a speed from 5.5 to 6, also considering the lower hp sentinels have in comparison to other walkers – except the Deff Dread, which is a cheap walker.

3. Decapping and detector

Clearly, sentinels with vehicle armour should not be able to decap points and detect enemy units.

4. Abilities and Weaponary

I would let them as they are at the moment, since the sentinel can already be equipped with the missile launcher which also inflicts costs.

5. Costs

My proposition for the upgrade would be to make it 200/40 to 250/50. The costs of a fully upgraded sentinel in tier2 with stomp, missile launcher and vehicle armour would in this case amount to:
300/0 Sentinel
50/15 Stomp
80/25 Missile Launcher
200/40 Vehicle armour

Which makes a total cost of 630/80. Clearly, this would not be a nobrainer investment in the imperial guard matchup, since 800 hp can be easily wrecked by a lascannon which also snares the sentinel. For comparison, the deff dread vanilla version is 250/60 with 650 hp. In the spam case, off course multiple lascannons would be required.


Summing up, I don't think that it would be impossible to implement such an upgrade for sentinels, also with respect to balance – though I didn't include internal balance by now.

What do you think?

[BaptismByLoli]

I think Sentinels are fine as is and require no further changes. Chimera's are already undergoing a drastic change as is.

[Cheah18]

I agree in that the sent becomes annoyingly useless in tier 3 or when counters like tcsm are fielded. I'd support this change. Its all about scaling here

[Torpid]

It's an influential T1 unit that bleeds the enemy tremendously while not bleeding the IG whatsoever, granted repairing sentinels does forgo map control somewhat, but it still overall leads to more req for the IG. I don't think the sentinel shoould scale well into T3, it has no place for that, it would be like making heretics scale into T3. It is meant to act as fire support in T2/T3 and should never be on the frontlines. TCSM shouldn't be able to shoot at it because by moving forward to do so they get melted by PG GM.

If anything sentinels are OP in T2 now with their ridiculously fast frag missles. A change that I never agreed with. Something that strong should be used with attack ground or suppression, it's not difficult, you're microing the sentinel more than that in T1 to keep it alive damnit. This thing in T2 is forcing squads off in a couple of barraging at barely any harm to itself AND it provides crazy-good AV.

I'de like to see the sentinel have its frag missles nerfed back to a proper speed but for it to get back its proper stomp, that is, the stomp which stuns the entire squad if it hits one model. Stomp right now is brutally shit for a 15 power upgrade, only ever worth it vs things like raptors, ASM or multiple melee squads. IG need T1 buffs, not buffs to their late game.

[ChrisNihilus]

Sentinels are far from been ok.

They are the most pathetic excuse for a no-energy Tier 1 unit in the game.

All the other similar units are made to potentially last and be useful for all the game. Not the Sentinel.

All the other similar units have a lot of interesting options and you need to choose between them.
Not the Sentinel. There is the Stomp, there is the Missile Launcher, and that's it. No choices, no strategy. Just a couple of no-brainer upgrades.

There were many good ideas in the past. Just pick one.

[Swift]

I like the idea actually, Sentinels might have a place late game now. I agree with your proposal to drop speed, keep weapon options, not be able to decap.

I disagree with your opinion that it should not be a detector, it should remain with the base 700/800 hp it starts with ant the cost of the vehicle armour is frankly ridiculously expensive.

Consider the Rhino, with SHI armour it has about 700 hp I think, when it gets the vehicle armour upgrade it becomes vehicle armour with a drop to 400 hp. use this idea to drop sentinel health to perhaps 425hp with vehicle armour, and 500 hp if they bought stomp. With this change in mind, the cost of the armour does not need to be so astronomical, bring it down to about 90/25, same as a squad leader, since your investment into missile launcher and stomp is still going to impact on top of that purchase. I like it being able to detect, you shouldn't remove a detector from the army especially since it has such a small detection radius anyway (15?)

Just some proposals I think you should consider, BountyHunter.

[Ace of Swords]

Nobody ever gets the armor on the rhino because it's useless and it makes it more vulnerable than with HI (I say HI because it was the same before it got it's SHI) so that would be the same for the sentinel.

In other words, learn 2 micro.

[Cheah18]

I disagree I have had crazy effectiveness with 2 IST SS and rhino, then fast teching to vehicle armour and the huge dps-giving heavy bolter. Catches the opponent off guard and you can then rush gens

[bountyhunter571]

Thanks for the answers. To be honest, I also think that sentinels are fine as they are. But at the same time, I think its sad that Guardsmen as it stands do not have access to a combat vehicle. The chimera is not a combat vehicle, its mostly used as a support vehicle and the upcoming patch also leads further into the direction of infantry-support. Unfortunately, the combat vehicle remains missing.

If you think that the missile speed is to high, making the sentinel with vehicle armor and current missile speed overpowered, then I will suggest a nerf for the speed. But the comparison between Heretics and Sentinels is in my opinion far from adequate. Heretics scale extremely well into t3, they are often repurchased to worship shrines or their troops. Apparently, this can not be observed ingame with sentinels, at least if players already have some experience.

Thanks Swiftsabre, as I do not play GK I did not know about this. I thought that the health must at least be maintained due to technical reasons, but since it is possible to downscale the health, I would also suggest around 500 hitpoints and costs of 100/25 or similar. The idea of removing the detector stems from the fact that no vehicle is a detector afaik, so in my opinion it would be unfair. But I'd be okay with it staying a detector.

As for the GK Rhino comparison, I wouldn't say that these two units are comparable. I don't agree on the fact as well. In tier 2, the sentinel gets just melted, by literally anything. Inferno Shots, Plasma Shots and Anti Vehicle, Heavy Melee Units and Commander Wargear add up to the Sniper Shots, which already must be considered a huge threat in tier 1. I also agree to the point that I will have to improve my personal micro skills. Still, I'd like to see an upgrade, which would allow the imperial guard player head for a more vehicle based tier 2 and playing aggressively with his already experienced sentinels, instead of giving them up and buying another t2 infantry squad. I really think that this would open up a lot of new strategies, making the game more interesting and therefore improving for both sides. What I'd like to hear from you are statements like „this would be op due to these and that reason...“ so that all the points and arguments could be considered. I mean, clearly the intention is not to improve IG over the other races, so this is why I opened this thread to discuss all issues with you instead of proposing something completely stupid.

[Ven]

They are the most pathetic excuse for a no-energy Tier 1 unit in the game.

really? something that doesn't bleed you, bleeds the enemy AND counters melee and basically carrys IG through T1 vs certain armys? sounds like you're using sentinels wrong, or fighting them wrong, or whoever is fighting you with them is doing it wrong. Sentinels are one of the strongest starting game unit other than probably banshees vs marines in the 1st engagement. if an IG player is vs chaos, and goes triple guardsmen then they're likely to loose that first engagement, if they got a sentinel then its likely they'll win.

Consider the Rhino, with SHI armour it has about 700 hp I think

its HI right now, but its being brought back to SHI in the next patch

Nobody ever gets the armor on the rhino because it's useless and it makes it more vulnerable than with HI (I say HI because it was the same before it got it's SHI) so that would be the same for the sentinel.

In other words, learn 2 micro.

huh... so a rhino is basically a sentinel, but you can get rear armor hits on it and it doesnt have any abilitys until T2 and the vehicle armor is useless? seems legit. wouldnt it force your opponent in to AV when they might no want to similar to how a bloodcrusher does?

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all in all, i think the sentinels are fine where they are and a vehicle upgrade would just cause imbalance unless the sent got SIGNIFICANT nerfs to the point of it being basically useless. with its las gun it would basically become a deff dread with no arms or upgrades, only allowed to shoot its shootas. useless. with the missle launcher, it'll be good but for the about the same cost of all those upgrades you could of gotten a manticore or a chimera, which would arguably be better than an upgraded sentinel; especially if you nerfed its speed as a result. sentinels would scale too well in to T2 and T3 with vehicle armor, with good micro you can get your sent to lvl 4 in T3 and keep it as fire support, and thats a lot of damage if you gave it its missle launcher, vehicle armor would not of changed that and just make it a lot more frustrating to deal with, or easier to deal with, depending on all the stuff such as opponents composition etc.

[Forestradio]

the Rhino, with SHI armour it has about 700 hp I think, when it gets the vehicle armour upgrade it becomes vehicle armour with a drop to 400 hp.

650 hp to begin with, the armor upgrade brings it down to 500 hp. Bear in mind that it still levels using the 650 hp as the starting hp.

As for the rhino, the vehicle armor is generally not worth getting, since it actually lowers the rhino's health vs AV weapons that are the only thing that will kill it, your rhino should never be at threat from piercing damage or melee damage unless your opponent heavily outplays you with a flank or infiltration. Bear in mind that it gives a green cover aura to surrounding squads and that the smoke nade is awesome. The resources in early t2 will generally be better spent on BC gear, squad leaders, etc

Now sometimes if your opponent invested heavily in plasma weapons early in t2 the vehicle armor can do some good work esp if they lack transitional AV and therefore you force them to buy a new squad.

With regards to the sentinel, I'll leave that for players more experienced with IG than myself to comment, but imo any potential vehicle armor upgrade should not cost more than ~100 req, just due to how t2 in general works out with overall investment.

[Dark Riku]

The rhino does not have a heavy cover aura...
It provides heavy cover if you hug it just like any other vehicle.

[bountyhunter571]

Stating that sentinels do not bleed IG is a capital mistake here. Sentinels in fact do bleed. But they do so in giving up map control by repairing with Guardsmen. It is really hard to repair two sentinels under constant fire, so most of the time you have to retreat to a safe point where you can repair them, and in this time the sentinel can only decap if you move both GM and sent to the respective point to capture. And as forestradio already explained, the sentinel can not be compared directly to the GK rhino. In this thread, I am talking about nothing else than nerfs for sentinels, for example decrease of speed to 5.5-6 from 8, lowering hp to 450-500 with vehicle armor, remove decap ability etc etc.

I mean, if you want to maintain the sentinel as a fire support vs for example KCSM and AC Raptors in T2, you would not have to equip your sentinel with vehicle armor. But I'm thinking here of going double sentinel in t1, and if the enemy goes rangers or snipers or double TCSM, then you could upgrade your sentinels to vehicle armor and spearhead your assault with them, instead of just accepting that at some given moment of the game they will have to die. In my - off course limited - understanding of the game, this would open up some new meta possibilities. If u want to go for a chimera b/c u think the upgrade is not worth it, fine. You are still free to do it. But even the possibility of improving your sentinel to vehicle armor will force the enemy to go for a more diversified playstyle with respect to av builds. My concerns here are about internal balance and 1v1 engagements, since I do not have the experience to provide an in-depth analysis with respect to these points.

I mean

Now sometimes if your opponent invested heavily in plasma weapons early in t2 the vehicle armor can do some good work esp if they lack transitional AV and therefore you force them to buy a new squad.

thats exactly what I would like the sentinel to become in t2.

[Ven]

Stating that sentinels do not bleed IG is a capital mistake here. Sentinels in fact do bleed. But they do so in giving up map control by repairing with Guardsmen.

right, but thats in a strictly 1v1 scenrio, map control is VERY rarely a pressing issue in 2v2s and especially in 3v3s, what im saying is that yes your sentinel changes could work in a 1v1 scenario... but i dont think it has a place in team games. and thats the problem. things need to be balanced for 1v1s,2v2s AND 3v3s, and the proposed changes i personally dont think fit in to the way IG are played in team games.

if the enemy goes rangers or snipers or double TCSM, then you could upgrade your sentinels to vehicle armor and spearhead your assault with them, instead of just accepting that at some given moment of the game they will have to die.

well first things first, if you're vs snipers then send in your GM squad first, very little bleed for you and you made those snipers waste those first shots, after that run in your sent and stomp them while they're recharging, its safe to assume that in T1, if a SM goes double snipers or an eldar goes double rangers for example that they will only have 2-3 more squads, once those snipers are stomped and forced off, they now have an infiriour force to yours on the field, you should be able to easily force them off with what you have.

ok in terms of Tzzentch marines, they're expensive. you shouldnt have problems dealing with one squad of them aslong as you force them off with your guardsment, 2 of them is a problem, HOWEVER, thats 60 power for them, so whats your answer? get a chimera, it has vehicle armor, is still as fast as the HI sentinel AND can reinforce and transport units, and in the next patch it'll even become a retreat point if you get its upgrade. again, vehicle armor would only have a place on a sentinel if it got significant nerfs to the point of it being useless, T2 IG vehicles are already cheap. so the vehicle upgrade would need to a lot cheaper, perhaps 150/25? thats cheap. and the sent would be OP if it retained its abilitys, but the proposed nerfs would not make it useful as the chimera still has 8 speed and provides a lot more, it even has higher base DPS than a sentinel. and ive mentioned before, it make a vehicle sent work, and make it desirable over a chimera is that missle launcher upgrade, but even then, the chimera would be a lot more cost-effective

Sentinels biggest pros is their anti-melee potential, and they're mobility, these proposed changes will make it in to a sluggish ranged only walker basically, with less DPS AND less health than any of the other walkers that have ranged weapons, sure i'd be cheaper. but the chimera is also relatively cheap and provides so much more.

[Cheah18]

I disagree, game should be balanced around 1v1 competitive play?

[BaptismByLoli]

Elite's main goal lies mainly in balancing out 1v1's so I think that answers the question somewhat

As I said before, Sentinels are fine. If you lack transitional AV you better start bashing and not be bashed. Otherwise, you deserve to lose for either being outplayed or not effectively countering his build

Bleeding and Map Control are 2 different things. Sentinels also help with map control via decaps. It doesn't help you gain any points but neither does the enemy and the Sentinels can still be repaired while doing so

And just as Ace said, just micro your Sentinel. It does wonders. I've finished off so many wounded tanks, prevented so many retreat kills with its stomp and trolled so hard with the decaps

[Old World]

Perhaps this is something that can be trialed should a modder wish to test it out. Or they could even show you how to fix the digits yourself and let you test it.

[Ven]

Perhaps this is something that can be trialed should a modder wish to test it out. Or they could even show you how to fix the digits yourself and let you test it.

i doubt that will happen. its not like the modders are payed to mod the game, if they will add something then it needs to be worth their time and actually make it so that its used, and thus the time spent modding it in is worthwhile.

[Old World]

i doubt that will happen. its not like the modders are payed to mod the game, if they will add something then it needs to be worth their time and actually make it so that its used, and thus the time spent modding it in is worthwhile.

I don't think you understand what I mean, Elite is an experimental balance mod and the modders are not so spikey that they would decline to help you by showing you how to change some base stats. I mean it as something you try out with a friend rather than a full release where they suddenly give Sentinels a vehicle armour upgrade. A lot of micro patches are tested privately before the final patch is released, you must remember that.

[Ven]

i doubt that will happen. its not like the modders are payed to mod the game, if they will add something then it needs to be worth their time and actually make it so that its used, and thus the time spent modding it in is worthwhile.

I don't think you understand what I mean, Elite is an experimental balance mod and the modders are not so spikey that they would decline to help you by showing you how to change some base stats. I mean it as something you try out with a friend rather than a full release where they suddenly give Sentinels a vehicle armour upgrade. A lot of micro patches are tested privately before the final patch is released, you must remember that.

yes but most of the things that come in those patches are from the personal decisions of cealtos, and from this very forum, where possible changes are discussed. if the general consensus isnt "OH GOD CHANGE THIS" then its likely it wont get changed. right now this dicussion has be mostly against the vehicle armor of sentinels

[Old World]

Which is why I suggest you test it amongst others, or maybe not you but BountyHunter test it so he can see for himself if it would be useful.

[Torpid]

But that requires time and if the idea sounds bad in the first place then we shouldn't waste time testing such a thing since there are an infinite number of testable changes and only a finite number of hours to test such changes in

[Old World]

But surely it is time off other people's hands?

[Torpid]

I don't understand what you mean?

[Ven]

i think hes suggesting that someone that isnt part of the modding team; mod the game themselves and test it.

[Torpid]

But telling others how to do it itself takes time and not only that, but it also takes effort if they don't understand. So it's like double work.

[Old World]

Well I can only see that as a way, and if they don't pick it up, then it is a shame, but there is always a way around and I think this is the best.

[Ven]

Well I can only see that as a way, and if they don't pick it up, then it is a shame, but there is always a way around and I think this is the best.

no such kind of testing has been done like that for any other proposed changes, this would not be any different.