A macro-strategy to try vs HT/RA (but not LA)

[Torpid]

Imagine 2 termagants... sitting in cover with genestealers/warriors and horms behind them, alongside a crushing claw hive tyrant and a venom brood. In this scenario there is no way the ASM should jump in to tie up the termagants, however if the SM player's FC runs straight forward, or his scouts do, they will be easily focus fired by the ranged synapse termagants. The SM player isn't foolish, she saw the genestealer purchase over zoans, as well as the pre-emptive venom purchase rather than a TG/zoan, and so she doesn't want a dreadnought, especially with the CC HT around. Instead then she opts for a librarian and 2 devastators. She doesn't want to push against the tyranid force with her devastators however, as if she leaves one devastator team unguarded by the other then flanking genestealers could wipe them easily with their ability.

If she pushes both up simultaneously or simply moves the back one up while keeping the front one in play then the HT will just tie them up with his invulnerability activated while the genestealers charge into the other one, warriors/venoms knock back shotgun scouts constantly, terms FF and snare the FC and horms devour the tacs. Instead then, the SM player bides her time, she gets sternguard so that termagants and their cover is relatively useless vs her hellfire rounds and also throws in a few smites every so often at the termagants. The HT realises that she is bleeding models over time while being unable to attack the SM force successfully from any angle. So she drops a brood nest while she waits for a zoanthrope to purchase. The SM player counters the brood nest with a plasma devastator, which also helps vs the termagants in cover and means the HT player is one against made to push the offence. The zoanthrope gets out and begins heckling the devastators from outside of the FOW. The SM player uses VoT to pull his forward devastators back, to where his backwards devs were, and he moves his backwards devs to the front, but not anywhere near where the zoanthrope was previously attacking ground. She then purchases infiltration on one shotgun-scout squad which she uses to scout out the zoanthrope which can then be hit by plasma devastators (veil of time may be used on them), she also purchases the teleporter pack on the force commander which she uses in tandem with For The Emperor and veil of time to snipe the zoanthrope in retreat after the P-devs knocks it over (apo players can use stimmed-VoT-ASM for this role, TM players shouldn't get ASM vs nids and should generally rely on snipers to kill zoans).

Inevitably the zoanthrope dies, however in one of the skirmishes genestealers got lucky and flanked a dev and managed to kill it before the SM player could react. Poor play on the SM player's behalf as she could have just used force wall, the assault marine jump, gate of infinity or one of his two shotgun blasts, but this player isn't perfect. Regardless, the SM player repurchases her second dev as she needs them (with vengeance rounds) to prevent the bonded exoskeleton HT from walking through her suppression lines. The tyranid continues to buy zoanthropes as she knows that without them she will concede all map control since it will not be possible to force off the SM devastators. The SM however manages to tech to T3 because she hasn't been bleeding all game whereas the tyranid has lost constant termagants and zoanthropes while being behind on map control since shotgun scouts with sarge > hormagaunts.

At this point the plasma devastator may well be suicided as it is no longer needed and some models may be lost on the scouts as they are mainly needed for their knockback rather than raw piercing dps, instead ranged terminators are dropped in and given an assault cannon and the FC is upgraded to a terminator-variant and given a flamethrower, in that order. Plasma devs aren't needed anymore because the SM ranged blob can just walk up out of cover into the termagants and roast them, the genes can't do anything to CI as they will be suppressed and bounced around by the ASM/libby/scouts. The VoT termy FC now is even better at killing zoans due to his power fist and the extra hp makes him far more difficult for the termagants to handle. The tyranid is hugely behind in VPs by now but tries to spam fexes, however her gaunts are useless at this point, being killed instantly by the FC/termies. The back devastor gets a lascannon, which alongside the melta bomb from the ASM and VoT from the libby makes the fex quite useless. While 100% snared it is hit by the ranged terminators and the FC in melee while the scouts/asm/libby deal with the zoan. There's also vengeance round sterns in there somewhere. Nothing short of two thornbacks will defeat that composition, but the nid can't get the req for that in time and loses due to running out of VPs.

I have played that exact game so many times before it is uncountable. I think upon analysing it over and over that smite is hugely influential here. That sweet spot in which I have sterns/smite and they lack a zoan earns me about 150 VPs. Smite contributes maybe 80 of those by bleeding those terms that bit faster. It's pretty influential.

The tyranid has quite has quite a rough time here assuming they aren't the LA as they just can't push vs it. They can't get a TG as it is countered instantly by the melta/VoT las-devs. Fast zoans are pointless as it means there's nothing strong enough to hold back the combined melee force of the libby/TH FC/ASM supported by double shotgun scouts and with a VoT ASM/FC around it's always going to mean you will find that zoan is often in retreat meaning you lose map control (since devs will prevent you capping anything until your zoan is back out). The best bet really is to build capilary towers at flanks and spam rippers to tie up the devs, but even then each SM hero can do something about it - the FC can use BC with his TH to insta-gib rippers, the apo can throw a purification vial in their path and simply heal the dev and the techmarine does a different build to this entirely and ends up having a dreadnought which can instantly kill the rippers with fist of the emperor + his flamer/splash. The LA though has it much easier than the RA/HT as she can get way closer to the devs than the RA/HT ever can do courtesy of her infiltration, this means she can infiltrate close to them from a flank, leap onto the back devs, flesh hook the front devs and A-move her entire army forward. With the two devastators immediately dealt with with no possible counter-play from the SM that's a lost-engagement vs a TG/genes, or even a zoan/gene/venom play. For some reason if the LA can't pull that off she can just drop spore mines on one of the devs anyway.

Has anybody else ever tried this particular macro vs a HT/RA? How did it turn out? If you haven't tried it, what would do you think about it purely from reading it?

[Dark Riku]

Can't really say much about this since it's all imaginary with not all the background present, like the T1 is highly influential.
The SM build may be able to hold 1 VP. All the Nid player has to do is focus on the other 2 VP's or once the SM tries to move with his devs the Nid player can easily move in.

Interesting that you use "she" everywhere

[Bahamut]

many books use she whenever they refer to an user. Some stupid "anti-sexism" sexist rule or something around those lines. If people really wanted to be politically correct they'll use "the player" instead, but hey.. people are dumb

On topic, In my experience it comes down to warrior level, if i can assault a SM line without taking warrior model loses then there's nothing the SM can do, i've always seen melee dreads as a bad choice vs nids, in t2 they'll get damaged by warriors and HT or RA, and in t3 they can't stand to even vanilla fexes. AC dread for SM has aways been my choice against nids

Tho going genestealers vs SM is kinda redundant, dunno why would you use them, specially since AG warrior and hormas are more than enough to laugh at ASM, even leveled and supported by heal. If the SM has a libby even less of a reason to get genestealer, rather get a TG and use it defensively, if there's also a thunderhammer around well, maybe devourer ravaners, t3 rush or even 2 TGs

[Torpid]

Yeah, I suppose it is map dependent. For example there's no hope in hell of pulling this off on a map like Jarilo's forge or Leviathan Hive. They're wide and they have too many line of sight blockers and the VPs are too spread out. It's very easy to lock down 2 VPs on a map like green tooth gorge, fedrid folley or calderis refinery.

The nid's best chance is definitely to run around the sides, which is why the LA has it so easy - he's impossible to spot from a long distance due to infiltration and he just leaps on your back-dev. Either way they shouldn't blob and should send terms off to cap the sides so that they starve the SM into moving, the SM should only send sterns/asm away from the blob though and use them to deal with isolated gaunts, using her blob to push off the HT/warriors/zoan (suppressing a zoan with VoT devs when you have a teleporting FC is a great way to get it off the field instantly).

I've tried it on Calderis/fedrid and it works. The T1/T2 situation assumes that the nid has about a 100 VP lead going into T2 and that the SM's T1 was 2 scout, tac, dev, asm, the nids fully upgraded terms, 2x horms and a BSWB. The nid gets to T2 about 30seconds before the SM.

[Atlas]

My eyes glazed over quite a bit trying to keep up with this hypothetical scenario . Can I have a tl;dr?

But yeah, libby and devs are pretty good vs nids but no talk about a TG? I'd imagine that thing can take out at least 1 dev before it has to Shieldwall.

[Torpid]

Vs TG you just turn the back one into a lascannon, it then gets perma-snared by the ASM melta+las. Just make sure it's the one at the back with the las and there's the HB dev nearby to cover it from flanking horms/HTs. Obviously use VoT on it so it can't be tied up by anything. The TG dies pretty damn fast until it enters shieldwall, but even then it isn't doing anything and usually just dies as the rest of the nid army is forced off.

There isn't a TL;DR version, but you're in the strategy section of the forums now, so what do you expect

[Furious Banana]

So I played with HT equipped with crushing claw and invulnerability armor.

HT fought against SM Deadnought. I turned on the invulnerability, then Dreadnought did the stun.

All of sudden, HT was getting damaged even with his invulnerability still activated. Is this supposed to happen?

[Dark Riku]

The invulnerability lasts for 9 seconds. The time had probably ended.
Supply the replay if you think otherwise and take a look at it closely first for yourself.

[Bahamut]

the bubble animation lasts a bit longer than the effect itself, very annoying

[Dark Riku]

the bubble animation lasts a bit longer than the effect itself, very annoying

If this is true, you might want to post it in the bug thread.

[Torpid]

It is true and it is very annoying. However nobody plays the HT so nobody cares XD

[Tex]

I do ...I care...

I have seen this scenario many times on GTG Torpid (or at least something very similar to this). It is for this exact reason that I am a prolific zoan spammer. Nids simply cannot push against SM come T2.

I usually push forward with my HT, use up my shield just to get some scouting in, and then hammer the devs with a triple zoan blast and force them off. At least then I have a chance at taking the contested VP. From that point on however, I have to be so wary of the AC dread or VoT ASM, sometimes both. If I don't have genes guarding my zoans, it can be a real nightmare. Termas are so shitty in T2, they do nothing but bleed to SM ranged, I tend to just guard from back capping with them so I don't go broke reinforcing them. Only problem is that it leaves you with nothing not much to counter a supporting hero with.

Anyway, I find it pretty crucial to get T3 vs SM as nids and get a lictor, fex, or swarmlord out. If you don't need T3, its because you had an awesome T1 or the SM is refusing to build devs in T2.

[Dark Riku]

First: necro'ing much lately?

Second: WHAT?! °_O
Pushing as a Nid versus a SM is really easy. Termagants come T2 are amazing. I use them for their deeps all the time. Don't forget their infantry snare either! Nids can't go broke reinforcing models thanks to the endless swarm upgrade, unless you send your units to their near deaths the entire time for some reason. I usually don't have much trouble versus dreads either, zoa snares and venoms can put on the deeps, together with whatever heavy melee or other things you have available. Try the anti-all VC on the HT.

[Nurland]

HT VC is currently quite brutal. At least in the beta. Not sure if it was changed in any way in the beta though.

[Torpid]

HT VC has been brutal for quite a while due to its splash but again nobody cares or even knew because nobody plays HT

And yeah. I agree Tex. I also think zoans are disgustingly OP. Considering how well they synergise with the Nid army and that they are practically impossible to kill and they support termagants with that mad regen and they counter all infantry and they counter vehicles too. Like, such a dumb unit.

[PhatE]

The Venom Cannon on the Hive Tyrant is by far one of the most surprisingly powerful things against the majority of units in the game. Light vehicles are sniped so well with the help of a Zoan.

It takes off very large chunks of HP from single entities as well.

[Nurland]

It has a very good splash pattern (better modifiers than most autocannons) and a highish burst damage. I suppose it has reduced accuracy against most infantry to explain the splash pattern.

[Cheekie Monkie]

many books use she whenever they refer to an user.

Whilst I do support equal opportunities for all genders, races and creeds to serve the Emperor, I couldn't stop thinking, "Wait, there's a girl playing this game?"

I kept on reading.

Turns out the Tyranid player was also a lady.

THERE'S TWO GIRLS PLAYING THIS GAME?!

[Flash]

Calm lol. The less of a boy's club games become the better.

[Atlas]

I'd always thought that devs with libby support was a really popular vs. IG strategy. I actually don't see a lot of dev play as people almsot always default to the herp-a-derp-asms-mode

[Torpid]

I'd always thought that devs with libby support was a really popular vs. IG strategy. I actually don't see a lot of dev play as people almsot always default to the herp-a-derp-asms-mode

It is, and it's very effective vs them too. The libby also works vs chaos. He's best vs chaos/IG, can work vs the HT/RA, but no the LA and he sucks vs eldar/orks/SM.

[Cheekie Monkie]

I'd always thought that devs with libby support was a really popular vs. IG strategy. I actually don't see a lot of dev play as people almsot always default to the herp-a-derp-asms-mode

It is, and it's very effective vs them too. The libby also works vs chaos. He's best vs chaos/IG, can work vs the HT/RA, but no the LA and he sucks vs eldar/orks/SM.

I'm not so sure vs LA really, since theoretically he can save your hero/sarges from being ganked with gate, providing of course he's not ganked himself.

In SM mirrors? Debatable really. With the new melee resist dev + sniper changes, the SM mirror meta might switch towards a more dev friendly arena, since ASM's are in a worse position at chasing down devs and snipers worse off at constantly bleeding them. This could mean that you'd actively want a librarian to support your ASM's with veil, or stop them from overextending with gate. On the flipside, libbies are always good at supporting devs.

[Torpid]

Well that was what the libby was like in retail/the past on elite. Obviously in retail he's just better vs everything, except the psychic hood doesn't do energy regen and so isn't quite as good...

I don't know about the state of game-play in the current patch as I haven't played it yet.

That said, I can totally see where you're coming from. In the last patch I remember doing a 3x (sniper) scout, 2x dev + turret play into a libby + dread in T2, in that order and it worked wonders in 1v1 SM mirrors. It would presumably do even better now.