Noob help

[theredbear]

I have no Idea what I am doing, I am having a bad time choosing which units to build when going against specific armies. played 3 games and got stomped, well except the first one against the eldar, I think I would've won that one. I have the 3 replays below if you want to see I am having a hard time, countering the nids/ other sm and pretty much all armies in the game. I try to go with a tac, scout, and 2x devestators, but thats not working and I am having a hard time keeping my power gens from getting rushed, while trying to keep the vps under my control. I try to use scout to harass and cap the map, but that doesn't seem to be working well for me ether.
https://fc09cb0ed7de8e2879208d731a6a711 ... d1c09CVW8/

[Phoenix]

I watched the first few minutes of the game vs Tyranids that you uploaded.

All I can say is that you are just new to the game, to get better you just have to invest time into this game; every "good" player out there has at least 1000 hrs played.
Watch Indrid's, Maestro's, Red-Rupee's and all the other casts and try to understand why the players chose certain units to answer their opponents composition.

The Strategy discussion in this forum has some threads about SM builds and tatics, I suggest you read those.

Try to get used to using hotkeys and circling between your units to always keep them active and alive.

By the time you have more detailed questions since you understand this game a bit better you can come back here and ask them, right now its not easy to help you because your question has such a general approach.

Do not be discouraged by this answer though, it will all come with time

[Torpid]

I agree with most of what Phoenix said, except that all good players have 1k hours. Just not true. That's WAY too much. Someone with slightly above average intelligence and slightly above average micro can get to the level of the best players around now in 500hours if they focus solely on 1v1 and really do focus on that game-mode only.

Check out Fredbrik! He only has 700hours himself on DOW, I doubt all that was competitive 1v1.

[Batpimp]

ill take a look once you come home brother.

Don't be discouraged though.

[Phoenix]

Well maybe that number is a bit too high, make it 500, 700 or whatever you want really, the Key Message stays the same - you have to invest time into this game if you want to get better

[Ven]

i'd suggest playing some 2v2s/3v3s. you're not as pressured for map control and pretty much everything as you are in 1v1s, in 3v3s for example you're pretty much holding your lane etc. you just have to be alive for situations where 2 players are rushing you and you need to tell your teammate.

just like all the others said pretty much, watch some replays and stuff.

[Nurland]

1v1 is the mode that will make you improve your understanding of the game, multitasking and micro the best imo.

[Element]

I agree with everyone above has pretty much said. Your a new player and it's just going to take time to get how to play the game no harm nor foul there mate ☺ Just keep playing. The best way to learn is to play, breakdown, analyze, and then watch your own replays as well as those being casted from that above.

People to look at by race
Adila, Toil, Lesten, Holyhammerx -Eldar
Ace, Giddolo, Max Power- SM
Osiniski, Noisy, Farzo, Caeltos- Chaos
Floid, Riku- Nids
Commisar Lag, Caeltos- IG
Tex, Killer Jebus, Noob finisher- Orks
Forestradio, Ace, Sod, Fear- Gk

I do stand by what Phoenix said. 1K hrs usually is about the time when youve come to master the game. At 2khrs you should essentially be pretty pro in all the game modes.

My Advice
1.) Set up your personal hotkeys grid IMMEDIATELY
this in itself wI'll improve your game play drastically

2.) Pick 3 races and choose a commander from each race and master those commanders. That will give you a broad base which to learn and enable you to also be able to play multiple match ups and come to be much more comfortable

3.) For the love of God don't play 1v1s until you have a broad knowledge base for the game. 1v1s is an entI rely different beast than 2v2s and 3v3s and much more critical as the META really makes it so that you have to play a certain way which really restricts what you can do. You want to have a bit more freedom of being able to do what you want and not have to worry about too much stuff like map control, back capping, gen bashing etc.

4.) Finally And foremost...don't just copy what you see the players doing on the replays. THINK before you act.

[Torpid]

3.) For the love of God don't play 1v1s until you have a broad knowledge base for the game. 1v1s is an entI rely different beast than 2v2s and 3v3s and much more critical as the META really makes it so that you have to play a certain way which really restricts what you can do. You want to have a bit more freedom of being able to do what you want and not have to worry about too much stuff like map control, back capping, gen bashing etc.

This is rubbish. Pure prejudice because you don't understand how to play 1v1 yourself.

1v1 is the game-mode in which you have the most freedom to do what you want with regards to your macro (and freedom regarding knowledge/micro is a nonsense concept). Try going triple sluggas in a team game; it's nowhere near as good as in 1v1, same applies to triple guardsmen. A sole scout sniper may prove more useful too. Ah, they are a thousand more examples of BOs that are legit in 1v1 but just a bad idea in 3v3, such as using a librarian, or buying T2 catachans.

Because in 1v1 spams are less effective and that mobility is considered AS WELL as combat the versatility when it comes to options as to how to play is far far greater. Not to mention the emphasis on map control is greater which provides a clear dichotomy between winning engagements and gaining map, as well as requisition vs power (because often getting the req points means prioritising the side of the map opposite their power, whereas in 3v3 resources positioned more linearly). All of these things lead to there been much more room to customise your own playstyle for general encounters and even entirely different playstyles based not only on the hero you are fighting but the way in which the player playing such a hero chooses to capture the map/position his units in the first 5minutes.

Dang, I remember Toil trolling back in the day with a combi-bolter CL alongside his tics in t1 and rushing a BC and going from there. That obviously isn't optimal in 1v1, but it's at least viable. Assuming equal skill between teammates in 3v3 that wouldn't be (this is because there isn't as large a req-power trade off as the points are positioning right next to each other). Of course the big difference here is that you get full control of your resource income in 1v1 whereas in 3v3 you don't as you can't control your allies. So, maybe 3v3 leaves you with more options BUT ONLY before the game starts - by which point you and your allies have to have agreed a strategy to undertake.

Not to mention the 1v1 maps are larger for space needed to cover divided by players and also more complex with regards to point positioning, elevation, buildings and so on. If you can adapt to all the 1v1 maps well you will easily be able to deal with the different 3v3 maps. The opposite is not true.

This is all ignoring the point that 1v1 will tax your micro more and that micro is a skill that is improved through practice and so playing more hours of 1v1 will lead to you having better micro sooner than playing the same hours of team games.

What is a unique skill that team games grant that isn't transferable to 3v3? Coordination with allies. I think coordination is the combined property of 1) being able to predict what other players are going to do/act, 2) having awareness. I think 1v1 is better to gain awareness than team games if you are just started out as it forced you to be aware of multiple situations at once whereas team games don't. Sure if you are unaware of your ally's fights in team games you will not be as good as if you were aware, but at least your own army would still be winning fights, unlike in 1v1 where you lose squads for such a failure. And honestly you can predict player motives in 1v1 but what you can't predict is how teammate's actions affect other teammate's decisions. That is the one skill that is unique to team games.

Other than that 1v1 improves all the other skills that make up your DOW ability faster than team games do and the great thing about those skills is that they are all transferable to 3v3 too. So once you become very good at 1v1 you will already be very good at 3v3, the opposite is likely not true, although that's a testament to both the general lower skill level of the team-game playerbase as well as the relative overpoweredness of 'cheese' builds in 3v3 due to the shared resources and smaller amount of points needing to be covered by one player's army.

I suggest any new player tries to get to grips with the game by playing 1v1 for at least a week or so with all the different races. Then swap between 1v1/teams as you see fit using a single race and its different heroes for another week or so. After that progress as you see fit. Such a plan of action will likely lead to you achieving your potential skill as soon as possible rather than dilly-daddling around in the little child's pool that are team games without any implicit coordination/voice chat/pre-defined strategy.

[Ven]

1v1 is the mode that will make you improve your understanding of the game, multitasking and micro the best imo.

basically what torpid just said. while 1v1s is the best way to get "better" team games a lot more forgiving and thus will allow you to learn how certain races work etc and allows you to work out certain counters, awareness and prediciting for example when the opponent is teching.

if you're brand new to the game, and you install ELITE and then just streight on to 1v1s then likelyhood is, you're going to get your ass handed to you before you hit T2 and thus you wont learn much, your squads will wipe, your power wil be bashed and then you might even be trapped in base. thats hardly a learning experience.

back when i started playing elite, i had like 50 hours experience on retail multiplayer. the first thing i did was i did a 1v1, i got my ass beat. so i went on to teamgames, im now at 600 hours played pretty much, about 400 of those hours are team games. recently i've started jumping in to more 1v1s as i want to practice for the beginners tournament coming up and i was doing surprisingly better than what i was doing before, i had learnt a lot from that 400 hours or so of teamgames. i played against a friend that only ever plays 1v1s and only ever on calderis, and i very nearly won if it wasnt due to me forgetting about my CSM while i was looking at them

i think what im trying to say here is, teamgames help you learn to start and 1v1s help you get strictly better. and as you saw in my example above, this isnt always true. it can be different from player to player. i think if @theredbear is really struggling in 1v1s after doing say 60 or so games, and after watching casts and doing homework on the forums then perhaps teamgames might be a better learning environment.

EDIT: so i just watched the replay vs the eldar and you actually did pretty well, there are some mistakes you made like not pushing power and there were a few avoidable squad losses, but other than that you did well. i think you have it in you to become a good player. just keep at it, it'll all come with time.

[Element]

basically what torpid just said. while 1v1s is the best way to get "better" team games a lot more forgiving and thus will allow you to learn how certain races work etc and allows you to work out certain counters, awareness and prediciting for example when the opponent is teching.

if you're brand new to the game, and you install ELITE and then just streight on to 1v1s then likelyhood is, you're going to get your ass handed to you before you hit T2 and thus you wont learn much, your squads will wipe, your power wil be bashed and then you might even be trapped in base. thats hardly a learning experience.

That's why I said what I said. I didn't say don't play 1v1s at all... I said play them when you have a more broad base of understanding. Hell I know in the verybeginning I didn't really have a damn clue as to thing like map control, economy, build orders, what all the units in the game even were and what they did,let alone how to utilize them properly in the right situations like that is demanded in 1v1s.

I'm not saying you can't learn by plaYing 1v1s first... I'm just saying that at least in team games your ally can somewhat grant you opportunities to keep you in the game for longer so as to be able to gain experience as opposed to getting completely and mercilessly raped in 1v1s in the beginning when you don't have the basic concepts down like that there is a difference in cover granted throughout the maps, what is a sthong or weak vs different armor types etc...

Finally and foremost, 1v1s tendo to be somewhat a bit slower to some people in regards to the demand for capping which takes away from the actual fighting nature of the game alongside the constant needing of cycling through units. In a way or 3v3 the newer player just focuses on the littlest things like capping up one portion of the map and being in the frat of battle more constantly, (may or may not) have an effect on someone's interest in the beginning stages of learning how to play.

Torpid everything you stated as to what 1v1 granto is valid... I just think that it's a bit on the overload side in the beginning to start learning that way... but I suppose that is a decision to be had by the player.

Personally I'd play 2v2s and 3v3s until I felt reasonably comfortable with all the units that I may run into the game and their abilities... After that 1v1s is indeed where one begins to develop and hone their skittlez

[Torpid]

I feel telling a noob to play teams so that their failings can be compensated for by their allies isn't going to do much to help them get better. It's like propping up a dead horse pretending it is still good and healthy.

[Nurland]

If someone wants to get better at this game he should do 1v1 and if possible get someone to "mentor" him a little. It is brutal at first (so don't get discouraged. The learning curve is steep) unless you find eaually noob opponents but 1s will help you the most id you ain to improve.

[Ven]

I feel telling a noob to play teams so that their failings can be compensated for by their allies isn't going to do much to help them get better. It's like propping up a dead horse pretending it is still good and healthy.

but thats the thing, you wont learn in 1v1s if your power gets bashed and squads get wiped, you wont ever know that lascannon is a counter to vehicle for example as the opponent will be smart enough to force it off/kill it first.

while i realise that being "carried" is also not an ideal learning experience and might cause your teammates grief if you're learning a race/the game. but its the only way a lot of people learn. sure some people can learn via 1v1s, but again it depends on the player. this is why i suggested, if you're still getting your ass handed to you in 60 1v1 games or so, then try teamgames.

however after watching bears replay vs eldar i think he has potential to learn greatly from 1v1s. i however have a friend that simply cant learn from 1v1s due to a number of reasons.

on a side note; i have considered making a series of videos actually to try and help newbies get in to the multiplayer of DOW2 and hopefully get better. i know im not the best player but it seems noone can really posted any "L2P" videos at all. think thats a good idea or a waste of time?

[Element]

I feel telling a noob to play teams so that their failings can be compensated for by their allies isn't going to do much to help them get better. It's like propping up a dead horse pretending it is still good and healthy.

That's certainly a fair statements to be had. I suppose personally for me, it was more easier to L2P so to speak by playing team games because Your allies are there constantly presenting in game examples next to you which you can analyze and come to understand. They can also somewhat more rather directly coach you throughout the game because they can easier see what it is your doing as opposed to facing them directly.

When you facing someone directly to learn, that seems like a much higher stage of play than "noob", because at this point it's not more rather your learning how units perform and play in situations rather than actually coming to analyze, understand and create strategy on an independent level.

Buuutttt... I get where your coming from ☺Torpid

[Atlas]

The first thing I would recommend is actually checking out the vods of the Beginner Tournaments. Do that just to see that you're not alone at being awful AND you can get at least a very basic idea of what happens in a game. The casting itself is usually very helpful as well. It doesn't take long and you're not totally unprepared for your first game like that. In fact, my very first experience with multiplayer was with Maestro and Indrid casts and I literally just cop/pasted what I saw there(and still do sometimes )

After that, try doing some 1v1s yourself. Perferably with mates from the Beginner group.

[Dark Riku]

I think anything I would want to add to this has already been said, so I'm sorry for the off-topic.
Does any one else find that the player/race list that v Anomaly v made is slightly off and hilarious?

[Torpid]

Does any one else find that the player/race list that v Anomaly v made is slightly off and hilarious?

3v3 player is obvious. But if I even commented on that I'de be here all day, not to mention look like an arrogant arsehole, so I refrained

[Toilailee]

/Only read first few posts

While you might need to invest hundreds of hours into the game to get to holyhammer level, you can get to top 10% of current "best" players in just a few dozen hours or so if you want to improve and think things through during & after games. Figure out what went wrong or what worked out and build up on your experience from there. Only thing that will rly flat out stop you from improving is when you decide that you can't improve anymore, either thinking "I'll never be as good as player xyz" or when you get complacent and think you're the shit.

Also keep in mind that the meta game varies in different skill levels. Watching casts will give you a general idea of how the game is being played at a higher level, but it can also mislead you if you try to imitate the "pros" too early. For example units like sentinels and scouts have often been concidered to be underpowered/bad by low level players and OP/very good by high level players at the same time. When work your way up the "ladder" your opinions on balance and how each match up works will change many times over when your micro and knowledge of the game improves.

That is, if you want to invest so many hours into this supposedly dead game.


/pep talk over

[RagingJenni]

Don't look the hours if you are looking to get good, it's all about how you spend the time. I've got 1.5k or so logged on and part of that is farting around playing 2v2 hitting my head against the learning curb (misspelling intentional) and part of it was me leaving the game open all evening because I was too lazy to close it. I think I had at least 600 or so hours when I started to actually try and play the game properly.

I'd suggest finding someone on your level, trying your way around 2v2 or 3v3 for a few hours until you get the basics. After that try to get some 1v1s going. Most people find the first few 1v1's a very stressful or frustrating experience, so be forewarned that this is what usually happens. After you've pushed through the unfamiliarity of it you'll have a lot more fun, and the learning experience of learning to play 1v1 well is very rewarding and fun once you get going.

[Torpid]

I can only imagine what Redbear is thinking right now.

He's probably just stood there gaping at his screen with his mouth ajar "I only wanted some broad advice for a newbie, erm, I'm just gonna walk out slowly"

[antidopm]

Hello Mr. Redbear. Add me on steam. My steam name is anticommissar. i just got some of my friends who have never played before to start playing. Come play.

[Surprise Attack!]

People to look at by race
Adila, Toil, Lesten, Holyhammerx -Eldar
Ace, Giddolo, Max Power- SM
Osiniski, Noisy, Farzo, Caeltos- Chaos
Floid, Riku- Nids
Commisar Lag, Caeltos- IG
Tex, Killer Jebus, Noob finisher- Orks
Forestradio, Ace, Sod, Fear- Gk

Where's torpid for IG, maestro for chaos, or crew for orks?

/jk

The list will never be comprehensive since, while it is a good place to start, it's more important for anyone watching replays to watch for a particular stroke of genius and why/how it was executed well. It's also a good idea to watch for other people's mistakes. I've learned a lot of those - the one I can think of off the top of my head is shrine placement. The commentators are generally keen on pointing out when a shrine has been placed too far back, too far forwards, etc...

but thats the thing, you wont learn in 1v1s if your power gets bashed and squads get wiped, you wont ever know that lascannon is a counter to vehicle for example as the opponent will be smart enough to force it off/kill it first.

while i realise that being "carried" is also not an ideal learning experience and might cause your teammates grief if you're learning a race/the game. but its the only way a lot of people learn. sure some people can learn via 1v1s, but again it depends on the player. this is why i suggested, if you're still getting your ass handed to you in 60 1v1 games or so, then try teamgames.

I agree, and honestly I do not see anything wrong with what you are suggesting, as this is what I have mostly been doing. I do not really have a lot of time to play, and as a result, unless I played vs AI, I actually rarely got to tech to T3 unless I was being carried by a teammate.

However, I'm also very good at introspection and I'm good about keeping replays around, which means that I also understand how my teammate(s) carried me during certain times. I also noticed on many occasions that part of the reason I was doing better in a team was simply because a teammate would remind me to put down gen farm/move units done reinforcing at base, and I've now trained myself to make sure I pay attention to my resources, memorize how much of every resource I need for particular things, and cycle through my units.

I think that if you want to improve without playing 1v1's, what I've done is absolutely essential.

Part of the reason why 1v1's are very difficult to work around is simply because there's no matchmaker. It's very difficult to find a game with someone with your skill level, let alone accurately describe your skill level in the space provided to name your lobby. I remember meeting Torpid without really knowing who he was and getting locked in my base while not being able to cap any power since he noded everything in around 10 minutes.

Yes, I actually learned a lot from that game, and a lot from getting to know a really experienced player, but was it the kind of 1v1 learning experience that built my micromanagement skills, map awareness, etc...? Not really. For the kind of learning experience a lot of people are talking about here, the skill levels of the two players have to be somewhat close.

[Nurland]

I seriously would not give much thought to that list. It is wildly inaccurate for most parts. Like Toilailee as an Eldar (his Eldar is good, don't get me wrong but that is not exactly the thing he is known for to this community) and Riku not for SM? Just to point out two weird things.

The list has something right but mostly it is at least bit misleading one.

[Toilailee]

People to look at by race
Adila, Toil, Lesten, Holyhammerx -Eldar

Wait, whut?

[Cheah18]

every "good" player out there has at least 1000 hrs played.
)

heyyyyyyy!

(just saw this )