Help Against Grey Knights

[Darkhavien]

Hello people,

This topic is for a few friends of mine, who don't quite have the same amount of time sunk into DoW 2 as I do, but who I'm trying to educate in some of the finer points of the game.

I've been playing Grey Knights against them lately, and they have a tendency to cry 'OP' if they can't handle a particular match-up.

Now, I normally can give them advice fairly well. But as I've just started playing Grey Knights myself, and I haven't really had too many games against them, I was wondering if you could offer some advice on two specific MU's?

IG and Orks, in particular.

Thanks in advance!

[PhilCollins]

Have you tried playing orks against Grey Knights? Give your friends some credit.
Lets go over some points
-T1
Shootas not sufficient vs power armor (including mekboy and knob)
Sluggas will not matchup against GK melee
WB seems paper thin now, easily focus fired and killed
-T2
Plasma cannon Dreadnaught disrupts any ranged AV and no hard melee counter
Purifier squads deal with any ork T2 melee
-T3
orks may have some sort of chance if they can make it this far without being drained.
Tanks will counter Dread but you can easily pump out a rhino w/ las cannon

My suggestion is to have you and your friend switch factions and see how it plays out.

As for IG? They should have no qualms dealing with GK.

-PC

[Darkhavien]

I'll definitely be suggesting we do a switch-a-roo. But I was more looking for tactics/strategies that people would use against GK as Orks and IG.

I know they exist and that there are a few very prolific Ork players on this forum, it's just that Orks (followed by IG) are my weakest races by far. Kind of an unfortunate coincidence.

[Nurland]

Warboss used to be pretty much unwinnable match up for GK not too long ago. Not sure what is the current situation after the GK buffs.

[Broodwich]

get your shootas against his ist, with hero support burna sluggas can easily take on ss. You can use banners to make your boyz fasta so you can kite the brocap a lot easier. Deffgun helps for raw dps, I wouldnt personally choose stormboyz unless he is getting a few purgs because gk has so much disruption come t2.

Granted i don't play orks much anymore. They always struck me as too easy

[PhatE]

As Orks, GK aren't that much of an issue. If you're losing to them as that race you're either getting very unlucky with sniping a Rhino or they've somehow managed to out tech you and get something you're not ready for (most likely to them managing the Rhino very well). All three commanders given the right wargear purchases starting putting in work against them.

The Rhino can be a nuisance but it's really only a matter of time before you kill it. At least in my experience Rhinos typically don't survive for too long for them to get beyond level 3 but there are definitely cases of them living to be a real thorn.

My suggestion would be that you start to incorporate lootas into all your build orders. I'm a big advocate of that unit and it really pays off if you play them right.

[Darkhavien]

Some awesome advice here! Thanks for the feedback, guys.

[Sub_Zero]

I would advise buying stormboyz against every heavy-armoured race. Their power melee damage is the thing you need. Don't listen to that "they die fast". They may die fast but they kill stuff even faster. And their stun will be very helpful against T3-terminators.

[Nurland]

Liberal use of The red resource is also important. Waaaghs and global abilities are really important for Orks.

[Batpimp]

I consider myself an ork main. I mainly play team games : so here are my thoughts

THIS INFO IS FOR T1 TEAM GAMES. After you are satisfied with that I can add more.

As the warboss you have the advantage of:

being able to push and punish strike squads, interceptors, BC and purgations. NOT the rhino.
be overtly more aggressive than Mek or Knob
tank damage

Boss Wargear: I almost always get the bang bang hammer because the BC will be pushing. I will punish that push by buffing my entire army with melee hits from the boss. This weapon also has a great special and good dmg vs all t1 units.

Torpid mentioned once that getting the boss pole and stormboyz gives them a good health buff and the bang bang gives them a dmg buff. Add in globals from the boss and they get unreal pretty quickly.

I also like getting angry bitz for the charge ability in order to interrupt the ranged dps and health regen it gives to boss.

The cybork implants are also good for stunning their interceptors, BC and Strike squad members in case they decide to push to your shootas.

In general the warboss needs to push the enemy to the point where he cannot setup a defense or a plan of attack. BREAK THAT DEFENSE. Push so hard vs the gk that he does not have time to prepare his attack. Overwhelm him so he starts making mistakes in micro or timing or abilities. he wants to sit in cover from ranged and wittle you down so that when you DO decide to enter into melee range your already weak and forced to retreat.

When you play a team games, since their are lanes, take advantage of the fact that the push will be linear.

For example, in my streams, you can see when I play Warboss I make a banner (http://dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=el ... agh_banner) using the sluggas to prepare for the engagement. I then activate the frazzle ability on the banner for the nice buff and push. (its a REALLY nice buff even for one banner don't ignore its potential)

When I push I have the boss first, the shootas behind him and the sluggas last. Why? so they sluggas take zero if any dmg during the push. I try to place the boss in front of the shootas and sluggas if they Strikes approach because i can get a free stomp in or deter them from approaching.

I buy the flamer upgrade during the fight in case I do win I can easily burn any gen farms or survive a fight better.

I buy the upgrades depending on how I think the fight went. If I am better than my opponent I try to NOT invest in power and save up for the tech. If I think the battle is won but not the future battles I start upgrading.

things to always do:

USE WAAAGH!
Use aiming watz dat to get your war boss and sluggas into melee combat with the least amount of dmg possible received.
(you might argue but I would have wasted red getting them in. well its not a waste if you get a couple of model kills in the process)
use the warboss global buffs!
tech faster!
get vehicles!

I wrote this in 10 min so sorry for crappy formatting and or unorganized thoughts. These are in no particular order. ask me anything. I did not write about mek or knob because that would be pages of info too.

[Torpid]

Bang bang hammer as a way to punish that over-aggressive, over-tanky BC is a great idea!

[Ven]

-T1
Shootas not sufficient vs power armor (including mekboy and knob)
Sluggas will not matchup against GK melee
WB seems paper thin now, easily focus fired and killed
-T2
Plasma cannon Dreadnaught disrupts any ranged AV and no hard melee counter
Purifier squads deal with any ork T2 melee
-T3
orks may have some sort of chance if they can make it this far without being drained.
Tanks will counter Dread but you can easily pump out a rhino w/ las cannon

what? since when were shooters "not sufficient" against power armour? sluggas will handily beat purgs, rhinos and ISTs in T1 with burnas. strike squads should be focused down like any other melee unit charing at you. interceptors you deal with them the same way to deal with ASM, counter-initiation.

WB paper thin? he has 860 health. that's not paper thin.

purifiers arent that amazing vs orks and you will rarely see them because of their price. purifiers are only really used vs other heavy infantry, but orks dont get heavy infantry until T3. plasma cannon dread is a rare sight, you're more likely to see melee dread. use tankbustas and any real AV.

a lascannon rhino does not counter looted tanks, it doesnt have the HP for it.

one thing you should never do, is rely on melee against GK. GK have the best anti-melee in the game in T2, so stick to ranged squads with maybe just your sluggas to counter initiate.

[PhatE]

As a personal preference I'd steer clear from stormboyz. They will definitely even things up for your opponent if you're not careful with them considering the bleed that will ensue.

However if you decide to be the Mek then that's a different story. Stormboyz seem to work really well with him/has better synergy than the other two commanders. Mostly to do with a heal from battery pack being a mobile-esq wargear.

Although you shouldn't really require them for this MU anyway. Late stormboyz purchases are a big investment when you have better options in t2 if you plan on getting all the upgrades for them considering GK have some wicked melee counters and early purchases are as above. If there are 3 IST then feel free to get them as you'll be doing most of the fighting with 3/4 squads. It's up to you whether you want to use them for fighting or stop backcapping or both.

a lascannon rhino does not counter looted tanks, it doesnt have the HP for it.

That's subjective to whether GK have the Librarian and Vindicare Assassin. The right combinations amplify the damage of the VA by a incredibly drastic amount in which the Rhino can come by and get the last hit or so. Granted however, the timing has to be pretty good for that to work very reliably.

[Torpid]

a lascannon rhino does not counter looted tanks, it doesnt have the HP for it.

That's subjective to whether GK have the Librarian and Vindicare Assassin. The right combinations amplify the damage of the VA by a incredibly drastic amount in which the Rhino can come by and get the last hit or so. Granted however, the timing has to be pretty good for that to work very reliably.

You mean relative to whether GK have...

I see your point but it seems irrelevant. If we accept that logic then sluggas boys counter tanks if they kill the enemy ASM while your beamy lootas blast away at their predator...

I'de imagine the GK would always have a VA vs orks though since the webo kind of shits on GK and the VA is a good counter to him.

[PhatE]

Alright Mr. Smarty Pants, the next time you make a questionable decision on the English language (which I see you do often enough) I'll be sure to let you know about it. I'm not sure exactly why Assault Marines are being brought into this discussion but sure if you'd like to do that then by all means go ahead.

I merely brought a strategy to light that has worked numerous times in the past as a suggestion not something to be debated. It's high risk for sure but a very powerful little move GK can do given the right conditions. The two situations are hardly comparable.

I generally don't see the VA too much but if you're after a free trade against a weirdboy then yes, a VA + Libby + mindblades will do that for them. However, as soon as you see the VA the player should really smarten up and guard the Weirdboy with *insert ork unit(s) here*. If memory serves, it's roughly less than 3/4 HP for it to be a slam dunk so to speak. Same thing with sniping Falcons and Razorbacks in 1 rear armour hit. But this is more of a guarantee rather than a "does the weirdboy still have too much HP?"

Follow ups with Las Rhinos are far more feasible with these two units in play as it was demonstrated in the past by Fear and I think(?) Forest as well. Although myself and Forest haven't really played all that often so my memory is a little fuzzy on that one.

[Torpid]

Alright Mr. Smarty Pants, the next time you make a questionable decision on the English language (which I see you do often enough) I'll be sure to let you know about it. I'm not sure exactly why Assault Marines are being brought into this discussion but sure if you'd like to do that then by all means go ahead.

So long as it is fairly intuitive that it isn't just a typo/brainfart then go ahead, I'de greatly appreciate that! I brought ASM into it because it's just setting up arbitrary combos. Ven specifically said the VA doesn't counter tanks, just like how the power-fist FC doesn't counter tanks or transports, he only counters walkers lest he gets kited all day and can do nothing. However add in a melta-bomb and suddenly the power-fist FC counters every vehicle ridiculously well but that doesn't make him OP because now we're adding in more units so let's add in a loota to cover the tank from the FC who chases it, suddenly the FC still isn't countering it and this could go on forever and it gets nowhere. That's what you did by introducing the las-rhino AND the VA as a notion against the idea that the las-rhino counters looted tanks. I certainly doubt that Ven was saying that las-rhinos cannot conceivably contribute to the countering of a looted tank. That's a different sort of claim entirely from simply saying that las-rhinos alone fail to counter tanks.

[Ven]

So long as it is fairly intuitive that it isn't just a typo/brainfart then go ahead, I'de greatly appreciate that! I brought ASM into it because it's just setting up arbitrary combos. Ven specifically said the VA doesn't counter tanks, just like how the power-fist FC doesn't counter tanks or transports, he only counters walkers lest he gets kited all day and can do nothing. However add in a melta-bomb and suddenly the power-fist FC counters every vehicle ridiculously well but that doesn't make him OP because now we're adding in more units so let's add in a loota to cover the tank from the FC who chases it, suddenly the FC still isn't countering it and this could go on forever and it gets nowhere. That's what you did by introducing the las-rhino AND the VA as a notion against the idea that the las-rhino counters looted tanks. I certainly doubt that Ven was saying that las-rhinos cannot conceivably contribute to the countering of a looted tank. That's a different sort of claim entirely from simply saying that las-rhinos alone fail to counter tanks.

yup that was my point. on a 1v1 tank fight, the looted tank would win by itself. if you did what PhatE said and add in other sources of AV, then its hardly a 1v1 tank fight anymore. the ork would still likely win if for example, ork had looted+tankbustas but the GK had VA+las rhino. it comes down to who has the most AV in that engagement. if the GK has more AV and is careful with the rhino then yea they'll win, probably, again depending on the rest of the orks army. but if the ork can kill the rhino quickly, which he should be able to in T3, then they'll win that fight. a large chunk of the GKs AV just went boom, and the looted tank is only on half health.

[Tergt69]

Bump.

It seems a bit old post, but I did not want to create a whole new topic for this question

OP also asked for tips against GK as IG but everyone focused on Orks Soo what would you suggest against GK with IG? I usually got stomped by them O.o

I know it might be a long post to write but I would be an veryveryvery happy newbie if someone would describe what to anticipate against GK in the 3 stages of the game (and a basic counter for them) and also give general tips against them

[Torpid]

2 GM, 2 sents, catachans -> ogryns and HWTs in T2 as well as plasma gun guardsmen.

[Atlas]

To add to what Torpid just put down, the catachans are very good at counter initiating vs Strikes/Ints and can do a nice chunk of dps to the Bro-Cap. Remember you don't HAVE to get both stomps on the sents as it's likely it'll be only the Bro Cap and Strikes that'll apply the melee pressure. If he does get Ints, then feel free to get the second stomp if you need it but you'll likely have catachans out by the time the enemy rolls out Ints considering relative costs.

The demoman upgrade for catachans also force a 25 power purchase of an ist sarge if you make it an issue to use them. I personally like to use the demo packs as a scouting tool on side lanes but ALWAYS try to put at least one in a likely retreat point or by a VP. They'll wreck that capping IST.

Rhinos aren't as big of a deal with this setup because you can hammer out so much ranged dps that the rhino won't be able to stay in the fight for long and will take up an IST's time by requiring repairs.

At t2, orgyns can handle a vanilla dread but you need to be careful about the GK Libby and Purifiers. You should already have a good amount of melee control on the field but the ogryns need support if they plan to go against a melee GK.

The HWT is there to provide your forces with support where they need. If GK is going heavy on melee infantry (noted Libby+Puris) you can consider keeping it in bolter form but BE CAREFUL of the GK Teleporter. If you're not looking it can do a lot of damage and Puris can chase amazingly well.

In the event the rhino is alive and now in vehicle armor or you're facing a dread you should get the lascannon. Plasma dreads in particular are very scary to an IG blob and your ogryns might not necessarily be able to get in there without getting forced off.

You could get the autocannon if you just need MOAR DPS in general but I personally don't get the autocannon too much. It's good, but it's just a playstyle choice of mine.

Anyway, from there adapt and destroy. I didn't mention any specific hero tactics but all three of them can add a dimension to your attack. Or I guess they could just cap all game

Hope that helps!