The Chaos Sorcerer

[Roey]

Hi again folks,

I'd post this in general discussion, but I feel as though its more of a strategy thread too.

Just to sum it up (wrote a page out before realising it was a load of rubbish EDIT, still wrote a page out, still rubbish haha):

I play a good CL.
I play an average Sorc, if I can get to tier two without making mistakes
How can I improve? What does everyone else do?

So, ive heard of two tics, one tac for the sorc, yet Ive never seen the use for two tics, can anyone explain that one? I find it hard to compare the grenade tic to a MoT csm squad.. Which brings me on to my usual: One tic, two tacs, (eternal war asap, gens, third choice depends on opponent, no sorc wargear at all for tier one).

Should I be investing in tier one wargear for the sorc? Weapon wise, I used to have success using the good old warp and flaming body with sword combo, but now I skip that all together, but im not sure why... probably to tech faster.

Is the staff worth it over the sword? Warpfire I feel is a bit 'meh' compared to the swords ability, and the codex says that it has more melee damage than ranged, yet the sorc always switches to ranged (?). Because of indecisiveness, I usually end up using the power on buying a t2 unit. Should I invest in him instead?

I don't really use the armours as much as I should do, although I find it useful using the chains of torment ability on shees or anything else I can gun down with my 2x MoT.. Tome of subjugation I read an interesting tactic on earlier (running them into death traps and using their ability prematurely) yet I never find it as fun as the MoT for the sorc, which is devastating to everything with a squad number higher than four in. Should I be choosing other wargears?

Again, I usually only purchase wargear for the Sorc when the main chunk of my army has been established, definitely side-lining him and prioritising other units, where as the CL I find myself investing in as soon as I can get he upgrades I want.

What do you guys do/think?

[Ven]

ok well first im going to point out ways you can improve your chaos play in general rather than just your sorc play.

General Tips

first things first, never buy eternal war first.

spending your first power on eternal war is usually not a good idea. thats 30 power for 2 squads, which means that if your opponent is producing the same ammount of power, they could get a setup team on the field and completely shut down your CSM. your first power purchase should almost always be a squad, sometimes you might want a tic AC first though if you're vs a sneaky git like the KN or LA. there might be times where you might want wargear first, but 99% of the time you will want a new squad. so lesson one NEVER, EVER get eternal war first. get it after your T1.5 unit or just before going in to T2.

MoT Marines aren't recommended in a lot of cases. the MoT upgrade is very expensive. you should only really purchase it vs heavy and super heavy infantry, so vs SM/GK/chaos its almost a blind purchase. vs things like IG you'll want to wait for ohryns before spending on it etc, you get the idea.

and last but not least. double CSM is usually an "okay" build order, but it's expensive. it usually means you wont have the req to buy any gens. and if you do, you're likely overspending on T1. learning how to use double tics is the key to getting better at chaos, especially in 1v1s. default and AC tics are very strong early on provided you can get them in range to doomblast. GL tics do very good damage to blobs in T1, and their grenade barrage ability is awesome. one of the reasons why you got double tics as CL or sorc is so that one can fight and one can worship. using tics to worship to make the other ones charge faster in to enemy lines with khorne worship is kind of a no brainer, also allows your CL to get in to combat quicker. double tics for sorc is relatively self explanatory, one tic worshiping gives inflitration/damage resistance buff. but double worship means the tics themselves are infiltrated aswell, so only the sound of worship will give your army away (or detectors ofcource).

Now on to Sorcerer.

Sword of flame

the Sword of flame is a very nice melee weapon that does dot damage, HOWEVER it is only normal melee, keep that in mind. the ability synergises well with tics or raptors in T1, jumping or running in to an IG blob and then melting them with flames is a lot of fun, its also decent at protecting setup teams sometimes.

Rod of Warfire

Gives him a really nice ranged attack, basically making him in to a ranged commander. he however retains his melee special attack and still does a lot of melee damage. the warfire ability does Weapon_Knockback (i think?) so its awesome for knocking back ranged blobs at ranged, not much to argue against there.

Vestments of the warp

Gives him a teleport in T1, very nice for countering setup teams or being annoying.

Robes of Torment

large aoe snare. whats not to love? combine this with an AOE like a blastmaster or GL tics and you have a party.

Daemon armour

ability Protects against ranged damage, pretty simple, works nice if you or your allies have a large ranged blob that needs protecting.

Sigil of the rift

Can be used to teleport your or your enemies units too and from your sorcs side. its an awesome setup team counter and can be used to basically teleport your heretics behind the enemy ranged blob for example. it takes a little bit of getting used to though.

Icon of Tzzentch

you already know what this does, enemies explode on death, pretty self explanatory.

Tome of Subjication

can be used as a hard counter to terminators, nobz, seer council, basically all the big killy infantry units in T3. very useful.

Hope this helped. i might add to this in a bit, but i need to go to bed.

[hiveminion]

The Rod of Warpfire's ability is ridiculously powerful and nabs you retreat kills really easily, especially combined with the Vestments to get in range.

Thing about the Sorceror is he has so many excellent abilities so you should invest in his wargear from the get-go, Sigil or Vestments is an easy T1 purchase that exponentially improves his use. GL Tics work extremely well with the Sorceror with their ranged knockback into Doombolts/Dark Flames, they can feed him energy as well.

[Nurland]

Melee tics also work excellently. Doomblast into doombolts and/or coruscating flames. Sorc is imho the overall strongest Chaos hero. He is the hardest to play too.

Anyway as sorc you can invest a lot in your hero and keep switching wargears.

[Roey]

Firstly, sorry it took me so long to reply, I had read our comments, but haven't found time to properly construct a reply.

Anywho,

Is there not a point to argue about buying Eternal War first, compared to a unit, or is it something everyone is in agreement on? I suppose I do it to be a little different than most of the standard build orders and it seems to have always helped me win my T1 engagements. Having said that, there's a load of variables to take into account before completely summarising that it has always worked for me.

I must admit though, perhaps instead of buying wargear instad of eternal war might be useful, putting coruscating flame on my tics would be an interesting alternative. Whats the argument for putting a AC on my tics first instead of buying a unit? What would this work best against?

- 2x MoT marines seems to always work for me, regardless of opponent, be it squishy, or as the damage type intended. Perhaps Im not good at microing melee units to get into the fray without being torn up first (vs an IG blob for example), but 2x MoT is a staple of my chaos, providing mostly, if not all, my range dps well into tier three. Could this be replaced with anything? Ive been tempted in the past to leave the dread with the autocannon and see how that works out. Any advice on this?

Double tic worship also looks like something to try. Ive had it done against me before, but any suggestions on what to use here? I imagine MoK marines work nicely for setting up traps. Infact I'm really excited about trying this haha. What stumps it? Scouts with Sargent? Dire Avenger warlock?

So Ven, are you saying that the 35range dps is good for a commander? It seems a bit crap to me compared to the much higher 50 melee dps he could be doing. I still don't see a proper argument for warpfire over coruscating flame, apart from its advantages against set up teams, but a teleporting burning sorc also does this trick and has other useful attributes too..

Robes of torment and the other equipment I know about and I'm eager to invest more in, my main question was when I should be buying them or if that's too vague, a comparison between say robes of torment vs a dev squad for dealing with banshees/orgryns?

Thanks for the imput guys. I also have a question about the Chaos lord too:

Whats more tanky? A shield with enrgy regenerating lighting claws
or
Health regen, other armor, claws?

[Ven]

sorc is a commander that relies on good micro and ability usage, pretty much all of his weapon choices are almost exclusively for the ability it gives, he is not a straight forward commander like CL that is supposed to do damage. 35dps is by no means good for a commander, but its still pretty good, the sorc is very squishy and come late T2 and T3, by the time he gets in to melee, hes dead. the rod of warpfire gives him the ability to do some damage from range without having to run in to melee and dying before he can do anything. warpfire is a knockback FROM RANGE which is the important part, flame is for countering melee, and thus not useful vs IG for example.

AC for tics increases the squads health by 20%, it makes them more than a match for a lot of T1 melee squads because of this. vs IG blobs you want GL tics for the knockback of the blobs, you wont get your tics in to melee before they're forced off, and if they can get in there then they're going to get stomped from the sentinel.

like i said MoT marines are expensive, very much so. by the time you have both, assuming its your first T2 power purchase, your oponent will have a vehicle and you will have no AV. it sounds very much like you're over-investing on your CSM. double CSM is very easly countered and spending 45 power per squad for 90 in total, is a massive mistake if you cant make it pay off by melting tac squads for example. some players dont even get eternal war until T2. vs IG or eldar you dont want a mark until you see wraithguard/ogryns. dont forget that the AC for the CSM gives an ability to the squad when the squad does not have a mark. i would recommend one of those atleast when going in to T2 if you think you can have AV readily available when a vehicle hits the field for your opponent.

now for your CL question. right now the combo of Lighting claws, Harness of Rage and Dark Halo makes him very tanky. i would only reccomend this build vs SM/GK/CSM though as its VERY expensive. the icon of khorne isnt an amazing health regen, i personally dont think its worth it.
combi flamer gives the CL an awesome ranged weapon, i would high reccomend it vs IG. vs orks, nids and eldar i would suggest the blood maul to counter melee, and lighting claws for shredding marines.
armour of hate is good for controlling single entities so its perfect for stopping a commander that is giving you a lot of trouble like a merciles witchblade warlock. armour of the inferno is perfect for countering ranged blobs. deamonic visage is a pretty straight forward accessory that reduces the damage of enemies when the CL is in melee.

[Torpid]

Is there not a point to argue about buying Eternal War first, compared to a unit, or is it something everyone is in agreement on? I suppose I do it to be a little different than most of the standard build orders and it seems to have always helped me win my T1 engagements. Having said that, there's a load of variables to take into account before completely summarising that it has always worked for me.

It is pretty much a finished topic. I mean, realistically a 15% increase in damage is just massively negligible compared to the change in combat/capping prowess that an additional squad grants. It's not even like other upgrades such as battle-equipment or scout shotguns in that it will never change an engagement whereas the others really do. Eternal war is a fairly small buff and if a 20% increase in the damage of just one of you squads makes you go from losing to winning and engagement then you're doing wrong - you should not even be taking such a risk. Just wait that engagement out and then get your t1.5 out ASAP. Once you have that out your combat prowess would far outweigh that of 2 EW CSM but no T1.5 unit and use that as a multiplier to cause bleed on your foes, gain map control and bash gens.

Generally specialisation should take precedence over general buffs anyway because in order for specialisation to be balanced it must be superior at the job at hand than a general buff else you would never get the specialisation.

The other thing that balances the cost of EW and makes it artificially higher in cost than it would be if it only affected the 3 csm bolter models is that it also affects the AC you get in T2 and the damage of MoK or MoT CSM and so it has to be toned down a bit so that it isn't OP in T2 when you get those upgrades.

[Ven]

this is a decent video that you could watch by maestro, its specifically about the sigil of the rift but still useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dKfZ4UHelg

[Toilailee]

You pretty much always want 2tic 1csm as sorc.

Yes you should be investing on wargear for sorc. But that doesn't mean you should buy wargear just for the hell of it, buy wargear that you need for the specific game/situation or wargear that you think you can make good use of in that particular game.

Staff fills a different role than the sword. The melee dps of it is largely irrelevant since sorc is too frail to use in melee come t2 without teleport, which comboes much better with the sword (that doesn't mean staff + tele is a bad idea, it just means you're using teleport for reasons other than to get into melee). Warpfire is more for the instant knockback than the damage, altho the damage isn't bad either.

Again, his armours fill different roles. Chains is very good vs scary melee units and teleport can be good in the early game when comboed with the sword to retreat rape everything and tie up range units easily, or in the later game to move sorc around the map faster to get to where he is needed or just to stay out trouble.
I can't for the life of me remember what the third armor does... I know it's been buffed in elite but it was useless for so long that no1 ever used it.

It's not wrong to prioritise spending on your army over your hero, depends on the situation and your playstyle. And sorc is good through t1 and early t2 just by spamming doombolts so it's not like you have to get him wargear until the situation calls for it. Again it depends on the situation, everything does.

http://www.filedropper.com/doombolts
There's a replay you might find useful. It's a 3v3 so it's not ideal example, but my t1 play in the game is a still a good example of how to use sorc effectively in t1 without wargear. :]
After the first 6 or 7 minutes the replay is not so relevant tho, I was fooling around playing recklessly and fast teching.

[Protagonist]

Daemon armor is super good against ranged armies thanks to the damage reduction shield. The extra energy/energy regen is also really nice for spamming spells. It's probably my favorite armor for the CS Since it allows you to easily fire off doombolts/warpfire without ever needing to use your human batteries except in dire situations.

[Surprise Attack!]

I'm not a very good player but I've been maining sorc when I have time to play. Vs. IG Daemon armor basically nullifies IG ranged firepower and forces the IG player to invest in other things if they want to do damage to your ranged blob.

Plague marines or TCSM under the shield are hilarious(Plague marines are hilarious vs GMs in general). Of course the downside is that the shield promotes blobbing, which honestly is never a good thing.

Esp vs IG.



And yes I learned the hard way.

[Roey]

Hey guys,

Just a closing statement. Thank you all so far for your feedback. I know it must get tiresome repeating the same stuff over and over haha. Anyway, I have vastly improved my sorc play as a result of this thread. Vastly.

I'm loving utilising the sorcs equipment, and trying different combinations, and I am now a devote warpfire-user, that thing is brilliant. Just got to practice my micro now.

Thanks again,

Roey

(next topic, noise marines and how awesome they are)

[Atlas]

Wait you ppl keep talking! I still have some space to take notes

[Roey]

Haha Atlas,

Wargear wise, I think I prefer the staff to sword, mainly because the ability is more diverse, and helpful in many ways. The armor I buy depends on the enemy, both abilities are extremely useful. Ive learnt tome of subjugation is excellent:

Terminators spawned behind me or in my formation? Take control and teleport them behind theirs (mess up range blobs, attack tanks)

Vanguards running past my sorc plus tics to jump my devs? Take control and waste the jump them into their units.

2x Mok coming for my melee-less army? Control, rinse, repeat.

The opportunities are endless haha. Im still working on using two tics well, but it seems to be better than 2 tacs.

[Surprise Attack!]

Haha Atlas,

Wargear wise, I think I prefer the staff to sword, mainly because the ability is more diverse, and helpful in many ways. The armor I buy depends on the enemy, both abilities are extremely useful. Ive learnt tome of subjugation is excellent:

Terminators spawned behind me or in my formation? Take control and teleport them behind theirs (mess up range blobs, attack tanks)

Vanguards running past my sorc plus tics to jump my devs? Take control and waste the jump them into their units.

2x Mok coming for my melee-less army? Control, rinse, repeat.

The opportunities are endless haha. Im still working on using two tics well, but it seems to be better than 2 tacs.

Sigil is better

Try putting it under someone trying to cap

[Maestro Cretella]

I think first you should specify whether you're playing more 1v1 or team games. I'm guessing team games, since that's what most people play, but I don't know.

2 tics

I go 2 tics, 1 csm, 1 havoc by default. This is my go-to Sorcerer build, and it's a very common build for him across other players as well. It doesn't mean I always get it, as you should never use just one build all the time, but if I don't have a plan to build something else, this is what I will build.

There are several purposes and functions for getting a 2 tic build:

1. To overlap their worshiping effects, so that the worshiping heretics are infiltrated along with the rest of your units. A single squad of worshiping heretics will remain un-infiltrated.
2. To allow the Sorcerer to more freely consume heretics for energy, so that he can continue to cast spells, maximizing his effectiveness, while retaining the combat and field presence of the heretics.
3. They are the primary counter-initiation tool against melee units, especially for melee units like banshees, which are too risky for the Sorcerer to take on himself, and which CSM are virtually defenseless against.
4. They are integral to a sorcerer defensive formation which includes two worshiping heretics, an infiltrated havoc and an infiltrated sorcerer. The havoc suppresses unsuspecting squads and the sorcerer shoots doombolts at suppressed squads because they are incapable of dodging. The sorcerer consumes heretics to repeat this process. The heretics unworship and doomblast if this defensive formation is breached.

2 CSM

2 CSM builds are generally more team-game oriented builds, and they generally work out better with the other commanders than with the Sorcerer. They synergize better with the Plague Champion because combined with his ranged damage, they create a durable wall of ranged fire, especially when backed by heal worship. They synergize better with Chaos Lord because the Chaos Lord can charge in and draw the attention of enemy units, letting CSM fire unanswered. Although CSM scale well into the mid and late game with mark upgrades, their tier 1 performance is not exceptional. A 2 CSM build also generally leaves you more vulnerable to melee units early on, especially jump units.

Sword of Flame vs. Rod of Warpfire

This issue is a little more complicated than it seems. In the long run, the Rod of Warpfire is definitely better overall and scales better into the mid and late game. However, the Sword of Flame has the advantage of being a tier 1 weapon. You can get it long before you ever have the chance to get the Rod of Warpfire, and it will dramatically improve his combat performance throughout tier 1. He will kill more, so consequently he will level a lot more. It is the best way to level the Sorcerer early on. The Rod of Warpfire puts him in ranged stance by default, but you can always toggle this or have him force melee.

Wargears

It is not uncommon to go through tier 1 without getting any wargears at all. This saves your resources, which will let you tech faster or get more squads out on the field, and the Sorcerer can still be very effective simply by repeatedly shooting doombolts (which is why you want 2 tics again). Especially if I've suffered an early squad loss or if I sense that my team or I are behind in tech, I will minimize early wargear purchases or not get any wargear at all in tier 1, so that I can keep up in tech. Usually, if I see a setup team, I will immediately go for the Sigil of the Rift. It is at least relatively cheap, and it will make a huge difference in dealing with setup teams. Come tier 2, you should usually prioritize getting a tier 2 unit, or using your resources to react to an opponent vehicle purchase, before investing further in the Sorcerer.

The three accessories wargears for the Sorcerer (Sigil of the Rift, Curse of Tzeentch, Tome of Subjugation) are all fairly situational wargears, so you pick one in response to your situation. Between the three, the Sigil of the Rift definitely has the most overall utility, as it has use beyond simply countering setup teams. The Curse of Tzeentch is the most optional, and in 1v1 it's mostly a luxury upgrade given how expensive it is.

[Roey]

Apologoes, I did indeed mean team games, and thanks for the guide.

To save starting a new thread, whats your suggestion for t3 tics? Im enjoying a moderate success at using two melee tics at the moment (people who have faced me,what do you think?), yet if by the graces of the dark gods they survive to tier 3, what do I do with them? I know 2x tics tzneetch worship is usefull for infiltrating everything, sure, but by t3, theres bound to be some sort of detector on the field (other aspiring champions for example). Not as easily useful as Khorne or Nurgle worship.

So, my question is, how do you scale tzneetch tics? Wack grenade launchers on em and risk loosing them to t3 aoe? Or replace them and decide their upkeep was too much?

Ta,

Roey

[Torpid]

Detectors don't counter tzeentch worship as the combination of the radius of tzeentch worship + the sight range of your units will be far greater than the detection range of their detector so you can focus fire their detector with everything from out of nowhere before they detect your units. At best ordinary detectors weaken tzeentch worship but they certainly don't nullify it.

Only infiltrated detectors counter tzeentch worship and they're expensive and likely to not even still be around in T3.

Regardless, suppression from doomblast is still useful in T3 as is the repair support they offer and the healing support to daemons while they worship.

[Cheekie Monkie]

@ Maestro

Dat strategy guide, very good stuff.

[Nurland]

Detectors don't counter tzeentch worship as the combination of the radius of tzeentch worship + the sight range of your units will be far greater than the detection range of their detector so you can focus fire their detector with everything from out of nowhere before they detect your units. At best ordinary detectors weaken tzeentch worship but they certainly don't nullify it.

+1

leading with my squishy detectors is hardly the thing I usually want to do when I know there is an infiltrated army lurkimg somewhere.

[Roey]

Hmm, I suppose this is true. I reckon its just too much micro for me to keep an entire army under infiltration and fire at a charging army before being detected or swarmed. Maybe if I only infiltrated melee units?