GK Dread Melee.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Is there a particular reason why GKCD is doing the same 150 dph 100 dps as a default SM dread now!?? Not only is it more expensive then an SM dread, 410/120 + 100/30 and it does the same amount of damage as its SM counterpart . Its quite costly/overpriced imo, its not worth the price of admission . At least SM/Vend dreads gets Dark-Age tech in T3 to boast its survivability,GKCD doesn't . Now Inferno/plasma cannon purchase are performing infinitely better then its Melee sponsor upgrade,i feel like the minor GL upgrade is just a necessity there .

Back then the boon of its singular target damage 200dps/300 dph(lol) is capable of trolling a PF FC , eliminating him out of the equation immediately with a couple hits or EF stun/Maelstrom before he could even response with flesh over steel literally at all. Now it seems like an awful joke smacking another Walker . It should be a slight nerf preferably around Venerable Dread 175 dph/dps or higher ,else it given the similar treatment of Dark Age-tech as should all Loyalist dread variants,there should be a beneficial advantage for GKCD ... Thoughts?

[Cheah18]

Can't add too much specifically, but its important to note that, hypothetically, in order to facilitate balance the same unit on two different rosters could (and in most cases should) cost different amounts. Also, the GK melee dread has an additional ability, one that is very good at that.

Getting the GK dread gives you an anti-infantry/HI weapon when it comes out, and you upgrade to melee. This is practically just flipped for SM, where you upgrade to Assault cannon. So its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other in that respect. I think its because the Melee dread is more niche to GK whereas the Asscan dread is more niche to SM builds. Similarly the TLHB dread is more of a core unit to gk than the melee variant, and the melee dread is more core to sm than asscan dread.

So all in all what I'm trying to say is its difficult to compare the two units in isolation, and balance takes into account external factors such as the roster. Hopefully a pr0 can second me on this one.

[lolzarz]

The Grey Knight Dreadnought, while costing 510/150 (with claws) compared to the Space Marine Dreadnought (450/120), has Maelstrom as well as Emperor's Fist. It should be noted that Maelstrom is now exclusive to melee Grey Knight Dreadnoughts, which makes it more survivable against melee infantry than those with ranged weapons, as well as compared to the Space Marine Dreadnought. The Grey Knight Dreadnought also has 100 more health at level 1 than the Space Marine Dreadnought.

Also, inferno isn't that good.

[Surprise Attack!]

Is there a particular reason why GKCD is doing the same 150 dph 100 dps as a default SM dread now!?? Not only is it more expensive then an SM dread, 410/120 + 100/30 and it does the same amount of damage as its SM counterpart . Its quite costly/overpriced imo, its not worth the price of admission . At least SM/Vend dreads gets Dark-Age tech in T3 to boast its survivability,GKCD doesn't . Now Inferno/plasma cannon purchase are performing infinitely better then its Melee sponsor upgrade,i feel like the minor GL upgrade is just a necessity there .

Back then the boon of its singular target damage 200dps/300 dph(lol) is capable of trolling a PF FC , eliminating him out of the equation immediately with a couple hits or EF stun/Maelstrom before he could even response with flesh over steel literally at all. Now it seems like an awful joke smacking another Walker . It should be a slight nerf preferably around Venerable Dread 175 dph/dps or higher ,else it given the similar treatment of Dark Age-tech as should all Loyalist dread variants,there should be a beneficial advantage for GKCD ... Thoughts?

Well, considering that the Chaos kdread is also 510/150, has the same DPS(unless you activate Blood Rage), and at level 4 has around the same HP as the GK Dread at level 1...

I'm not sure if we should buff the melee GK dread to 200 dps just because it costs 510/150.

[Dark Riku]

...

Seconded!

Also agree with "Surprise Attack!" and "lolzarz" (minus the inferno part cuz I dunno what you are talking about here )

[Deaf Board]

Regarding this matter, I'd intended to address it myself in the near future, though seems someone beat me to it.

My concerns with the current state of the Grey Knight Claw Dreadnought lie primarily with the amount of commonalities it possesses with a default Space Marine Dreadnought. Looking at the GKCD and SM Dread, you will find they both inspire upon landing melee killing blows, and this inspiration does in no way differ from the other, just +20% damage, -20% courage damage received and the restoration of 100 courage, same radius and duration. They both possess 'Emperor's Fist' as an ability to counteract melee opposition and both deal the same amount of damage.

The claw damage values finally being resolved was a reasonable and needed implementation as no single entity should be able to dish out that much damage (some odd 439 heavy melee dph at level 4, splash included) of that there's no doubt, but this isn't about the past; this is about it's current state. Be honest, take away Maelstrom and the 100hp a GKD begins with and you'd just have a plain SM Dreadnought with a different model, and no heavy flamer fitted beneath the claw.

So the difference in costs between the two is 60/30. This difference for 100 hp and Maelstrom. The question being, is it really worth it?

Briefly taking a look over what Maelstrom actually does, one can see it's not much unlike EF, just without the stun, a difference in radius of effect of 5, and the overall damage of 35 (just as EF is also 35) delivered over the span of 7 seconds and as psychic rather than melee meaning it will deal more to HI/SHI (though not much, overall of 53 which is just over a seventh of most HI hp pools) and melee damage can of course be used to deal greater damage to units lacking melee resistance and those within the retreat state. The force of the Maelstrom knock back effect is seemingly half of that of EF (that is to say; the distance knocked away from the source) and one could argue that it has its -60% movement speed as recompense for this.

To exemplify; take a particularly slow unit that could potentially present itself as a melee spec AV threat to the GKCD. Hive Tyrant, same speed, crushing claws, and somewhat durable. GKCD have 4.5 speed, HT have 4.5 speed. HT is also unshakable, or rather is one of those units that cannot be affected by weapon knock back, which is the knock back category Maelstrom and EF use. Quick calculation, and you get a HT moving at 2.7 speed. Brilliant, but then there's melee charge which in its standard form is triggered within a radius of 12. The Maelstrom radius is 15. Anyone who has actually used a GKCD extensively should well-know that upon using Maelstrom the GKCD becomes temporarily immobile for about 3 seconds (unsurprisingly, same time EF makes a Dreadnought immobile) making it easy for a slow pursuer such as HT to make up the distance to trigger melee charge, that seemingly increases speed by +2 once triggered, thus allowing the HT to actually continue attacking even if the GKCD was pulled back right after using this ability.

So how about units that aren't unshakable? Those such as Genestealers, Nobs, Ogryns and so on, while they can be knocked back by Maelstrom always seem to be able to be able to get back within melee charge range upon regaining composure. The issue is, Maelstrom at the moment gives me the impression it's an ability intended to help the GKCD survive, or escape a warfront tarnished with misplaced judgements. Can it be used offensively? Well given the state of what GK currently have as ranged specialists, I highly doubt it.

Let's look at the ranged forms of damage a GKCD has. None... unless you'd like to spend 75/25 on a mounted grenade launcher. Well, glancing over the stats you will see, a whopping 50 damage per hit... BUT, it can fire while moving. Yeah, no... ordinary GL (those of heretics, IST and LG) deal 40 per hit, same AoE radius and usually cost less than this one, unless it's the LG whom also receives an ability with it.
SM Dreadnoughts get a heavy flamer, good at dealing enough damage to assist to pick off weaker units in less swings; units like DA, GM, Gants/Gaunts and so forth for a potential to get immediate inspiration upon landing the first swing, though can also be used to aid in burning light structures such as generators/nodes, turrets and relays. Khorne Dreadnought, has two torso-mounted storm bolters that can deal substantial damage (22.70 dps combined, almost like having two additional CSM firing while moving, except with 100% accuracy) which can at times be a game changer, just needing that little bit more to fully obliterate an enemy squad or unit if they fall back or retreat from it.

TL;DR ?

v

To summarise:

GKCD is just far too similar to default SM Dreadnoughts at the moment, so they don't really feel unique to GK, and I say this knowingly, using both factions quite frequently, the only outstanding difference to me is the weapon upgrade choices and the model itself.

Maelstrom currently is, or at least from my perspective unable to assist the GKCD in averting most forms of melee AV that comes from infantry units and its potency being used as an offensive ability is negligible at best.

A distinct difference between the three currently implemented variants of melee specialised Dreadnoughts, being the only one that does not have a ranged weapon to begin with.

My suggestions:

Increase the Maelstrom radius of effect by 5, or find a way to shorten or remove the immobilisation when used.

Alternatively Maelstrom could be re-worked entirely, so it can be used more as a destructive or disruptive ability, rather than what appears to be a cheaply appropriated secondary EF.

For a default ranged weapon, an in-built storm bolter as most GKD dedicated to close-combat would have within their nemesis doomfists, though if that seems too difficult to implement torso/wrist-mounted would also work.

As for the grenade launcher option. Grenade launchers are already available to GK through IST, however I don't think it's an ill idea, but as it currently stands I don't know anyone who would ever consider spending 75/25 for it, unless they were in a large-scale match type such a TFFA, 3 v 3 or FFA and had more resources than they know what to do with, or just to try it out of curiosity.

So as a work-around, there are two things I can think of. It could be like the Kasrkin grenade launchers currently are and have a knock back effect, or it can be used to assist the melee forces of GK by being a Smoke Launcher as it would be in better accordance to lore, working similarly to how Catachan Smoke Grenades currently function.

As for inspiration, it's not as much of an issue, but the GKCD inspiration being exactly the same as SM Dreads just seems a little redundant. I suppose it is a big ask, to even consider changing it at this point, but perhaps it could be a thought? I'd say rather than inspiration per melee kill, maybe just make it a passive aura that buffs their ranged damage mitigation by 10%, with limited range (something like 20, just so infantry doesn't crash into pathing priorities of the GKCD so frequently), or if that sounds too absurd, maybe just make the inspiration buff their damage mitigation by some 5% per melee kill for 15s (not 20s like SM and only stacking up to 5 times, such as the de-buff for Chaos Terminators), or 15% on melee kill for 15s so it won't stack like the SM variant, in case someone out there thinks a GKCD could somehow get enough melee kills to make GK go into a temporal 'god-mode' within that time span. This is in better standing to how they act lore-wise, as they are able to bolster their Battle-brothers psychic defensive capabilities which is only possible due to psyber-circuitry implemented within GKDs.

Please try not to bring up anything about the various ranged upgrades unless you find it necessary to establish a point or some kind of suggestion, as this is mostly about the current state of the melee specialised Dreadnoughts in t2, and how GKCD compares to them at this point in time.

Why do I have next to no posts?
Because I was reluctant to bother with balance issues until now.

Is this topic out of my depth?
Not really since I main GK, and I have used them in various game modes, though some more than others.

Feel free to expand on any suggestions that I've already made as well if you rather.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

To summarise:

GKCD is just far too similar to default SM Dreadnoughts at the moment, so they don't really feel unique to GK, and I say this knowingly, using both factions quite frequently, the only outstanding difference to me is the weapon upgrade choices and the model itself.

Maelstrom currently is, or at least from my perspective unable to assist the GKCD in averting most forms of melee AV that comes from infantry units and its potency being used as an offensive ability is negligible at best.

My suggestions:

Increase the Maelstrom radius of effect by 5, or find a way to shorten or remove the immobilisation when used.

Alternatively Maelstrom could be re-worked entirely, so it can be used more as a destructive or disruptive ability, rather than what appears to be a cheaply appropriated secondary EF.

For a default ranged weapon, an in-built storm bolter as most GKD dedicated to close-combat would have within their nemesis doomfists, though if that seems too difficult to implement torso/wrist-mounted would also work.

So as a work-around, there are two things I can think of. It could be like the Kasrkin grenade launchers currently are and have a knock back effect, or it can be used to assist the melee forces of GK by being a Smoke Launcher as it would be in better accordance to lore, working similarly to how Catachan Smoke Grenades currently function.

As for inspiration, it's not as much of an issue, but the GKCD inspiration being exactly the same as SM Dreads just seems a little redundant. I suppose it is a big ask, to even consider changing it at this point, but perhaps it could be a thought? I'd say rather than inspiration per melee kill, maybe just make it a passive aura that buffs their ranged damage mitigation by 10%, with limited range (something like 20, just so infantry doesn't crash into pathing priorities of the GKCD so frequently), or if that sounds too absurd, maybe just make the inspiration buff their damage mitigation by some 5% per melee kill for 15s (not 20s like SM and only stacking up to 5 times, such as the de-buff for Chaos Terminators), or 15% on melee kill for 15s so it won't stack like the SM variant, in case someone out there thinks a GKCD could somehow get enough melee kills to make GK go into a temporal 'god-mode' within that time span. This is in better standing to how they act lore-wise, as they are able to bolster their Battle-brothers psychic defensive capabilities which is only possible due to psyber-circuitry implemented within GKDs.

Finally you commented on the frigging forums, yes the insp buff & i like to see the usefulness of the GL attachment upgrade bought for gud measure,GK dread needs some beneficial advantages. Afterall not many players main GK or understand their playstyle/roasters.

[Surprise Attack!]

My concerns with the current state of the Grey Knight Claw Dreadnought lie primarily with the amount of commonalities it possesses with a default Space Marine Dreadnought.

...

So the difference in costs between the two is 60/30. This difference for 100 hp and Maelstrom. The question being, is it really worth it?

I apologize in advance if I have misinterpreted your intent, but for the purpose of clarity(I did read your post a couple of times, but your TL;DR version was rather long itself), am I correct in understanding that your main point is that the GKCD and the standard SM Dread are too similar for the increased cost of the GKCD?

And therefore either the GKCD requires a further reduction in cost or some kind of buff to make it "different", as in more powerful, than the standard SM dread due to the net increased cost of 60/30(without factoring the lack of a ranged weapon)?

If so, I'm not sure if I agree, because I feel that simply comparing two units from two armies and debating about the virtues or vices of either unit does not truly constitute balance. In addition, this seems to be a situation where we've decided to compare only the melee versions of these two dreadnoughts as if they were the only versions that matter. Of course, if we are operating under the implication that there is no reason to get any other upgrades for the GK dread other than the melee claw, this would be a different discussion.

While I agree that a cursory analysis of costs will reveal unfairness in the sense that the GKCD is basically the default SM dreadnought, the GK dread and the SM dread are two very different machines with different capabilities. And in my amateur, non-professional opinion, I find those differences adequate to justify the costs. As it stands, the claw is a nice upgrade to the GK dread that allows it to go full-melee when the situation arises. The plasma cannon is the only walker mounted artillery piece, and the Inferno melts things. This is far more flexibility than the SM dread, which at best can transition into ranged AI or AV should the need arise.

I understand that this is a balance mod first and foremost, and I don't think that we should give units things simply because we can.

This being said, I don't think it would be a huge deal if we lowered/struck off the power cost for the grenade launcher on the GK dread.

Well, considering that the Chaos kdread is also 510/150, has the same DPS(unless you activate Blood Rage), and at level 4 has around the same HP as the GK Dread at level 1...

I'm not sure if we should buff the melee GK dread to 200 dps just because it costs 510/150.

Also I made a mistake here: the kdread gets an additional 200hp after the mark is applied, but my point(a reply to OP's remark about lowered DPS) more or less stands - the Chaos variant is just as expensive, but has no such dps upgrades. Certainly Blood Rage helps, but this ability also does fun things to certain Chaos Sorcerers.

[Deaf Board]

I apologize in advance if I have misinterpreted your intent, but for the purpose of clarity(I did read your post a couple of times, but your TL;DR version was rather long itself), am I correct in understanding that your main point is that the GKCD and the standard SM Dread are too similar for the increased cost of the GKCD?

And therefore either the GKCD requires a further reduction in cost or some kind of buff to make it "different", as in more powerful, than the standard SM dread due to the net increased cost of 60/30(without factoring the lack of a ranged weapon)?

Yes, it appears you seem to have misinterpreted it quite a bit actually, which is somewhat understandable as it's a rather lengthy response. Allow me to attempt to clarify; at no point did I ever say the GKCD should receive any cost reduction, and at no point did I ever say it required a 'buff' to make it differ from the other two. What I was implying when I made the suggestions in my last post, was basically take what the GKCD already had, and make it more suited to GK army compositions. If you're uncertain as to why, it is not only to distinguish them from SM, but since both in lore, and evidently the Elite Mod take on this they excel at melee combat (having the lowest amount of ranged specialised infantry in the mod at the moment, just beneath Tyranids). If you would like me to elaborate on one of the suggestions I'd put forth in the previous response as to why the GKCD should have it implemented in exchange for what it currently possesses then I will do so, but all I ask is you consider my words before presuming that I'm requesting for them to be buffed. I fail to see how 'different' translates into 'more powerful'. If I'd want to suggest an outright buff for the GKCD, what reason would I have to masque that? The only point I'd explicitly suggested buffing the GKCD, had been when I was describing my current perspective on the ability Maelstrom, and how it just appears quite lackluster as it currently stands and I provided reason as to why this is apparent.

If so, I'm not sure if I agree, because I feel that simply comparing two units from two armies and debating about the virtues or vices of either unit does not truly constitute balance. In addition, this seems to be a situation where we've decided to compare only the melee versions of these two dreadnoughts as if they were the only versions that matter. Of course, if we are operating under the implication that there is no reason to get any other upgrades for the GK dread other than the melee claw, this would be a different discussion.

I wrote this full-knowing that these variants are not the only option, and I completely acknowledge the fact that they cannot always be used to great effect in every instance, hence why ranged variants exist as you seemingly delve into when I'd advised it'd just be better if we kept the discussion based around the second-tier melee variants of Dreadnoughts. If you're not sure why, this is the reason; all three variants are available in T2, and have very similar costs, combat traits and are usually purchased to serve an often like purpose, whether that be to serve to distract and disrupt enemy forces and provide openings for the forces to engage the opposing, or to counteract a melee-oriented army.

While I agree that a cursory analysis of costs will reveal unfairness in the sense that the GKCD is basically the default SM dreadnought, the GK dread and the SM dread are two very different machines with different capabilities. And in my amateur, non-professional opinion, I find those differences adequate to justify the costs. As it stands, the claw is a nice upgrade to the GK dread that allows it to go full-melee when the situation arises. The plasma cannon is the only walker mounted artillery piece, and the Inferno melts things. This is far more flexibility than the SM dread, which at best can transition into ranged AI or AV should the need arise.

Yes, you are bringing this discussion toward the unit GKD overall. Personally I wouldn't really mind delineating for you why it has the particular ranged upgrades it does, and how they do in no way possess "far more flexibility" which to me; making such a statement just seems a little presumptuous and out of place in this thread.

I understand that this is a balance mod first and foremost, and I don't think that we should give units things simply because we can.

Not really too sure what you mean here. If you'd care to clarify I'd appreciate it, but for now I'm just going to assume you're saying this because of the initial misinterpretation and the seemingly mistaken inference you'd made, of that I'd implied to buff the GKCD, rather than just alter or rework the current ability and trait.

[Torpid]

Cheah already addressed your points Board.

You are not solely paying for the 100hp and maelstrom when getting the GK melee dread.

For a start you are paying for the privilege of having your walker come out very versatile as ranged unit by default - granted it was more versatile and just better when it came out with the melta, but a ranged walker is always more versatile than a melee one. This is privilege that costs you as a GK player.

Secondly IST are more prevalent than scouts in GK build orders as well as being more combat capable too. I think this privilege warrants

Also, the BC is one of the best set-up team counters in the entire game. Between his teleport, his psychic lash, both WATH variants and his mega high power melee dps this guy slaughters set-up teams and guess what are the best counters to melee walkers? Set-up teams. SM doesn't get this privilege. ASM don't get to jump as much as canticle GKI do. The FC is nowhere near as durable as the BC nor does he do as much damage. You pay for this privilege.

And so on and so on.

To look at the balance of units in isolation as was done was originally is fallacious and Cheah pointing this out on the very first post of the thread other than the OPs.

Surprise Attack's point that the GK dreadnought has a variety of ranged weapons that the SM dreadnought lacks is very apt to a discussion about the nature of the melee GK dreadnought.

Another point to make is that just because "it would be nice" to change something is not a reason to change it. Change should bring us closer to "perfect balance". While such a thing may be impossible to achieve surely nobody would doubt that we have gotten closer to it over time, or at the very least COULD HAVE done so. So, changing the GK dreadnought's mechanics in melee just to make it distinct from the SM dreadnought is a moot point unless doing so would bring us closer to "perfect balance".

[Cheah18]

Having read the thread, I disagree with the need for any change. Following on from what I and Torpid said a melee dread in a GK army plays very differently to one in an SM army so cost differences are to be expected. In addition, I find myself utilising the GK dread in the different ways it is meant to be used (ie. I choose different weapon upgrades/no upgrade) in reasonable proportions to counter different opposition, except the inferno cannon cos it is pretty bad....

[Ven]

+1 to everything torpid said

board was comparing the SM and GK dread in a 1-1 situation. without considering army compositions.

yea sure mealstrom + EF wont stop a melee chrage forever, if its alone its dead. Dreads ARE NOT SOLO UNITS. they need to be supported. usually mealstrom+EF combined its a 6-10 second hard counter to most melee other than perhaps terminators (termies will still be stunned; so still 5 seconds stun). meanwhile your army is forcing off said heavy melee genestealers while they're stunned/snared.

i consider the GK melee dread to be the best melee dread vs infantry right now just becuase it has an extra ability, however melee dreads are rarely a counter to other walkers unless you know your dps/health is higher, for example melee dread vs deff dread. thats a counter. so basically what im saying is that GK is the best melee dread in the game, that extra ability could mean EVERYTHING in a game. dont undervalue it.

[Cheah18]

+1 to everything torpid said

Torpid expressed his support of what I said so can I claim an indirect +1 on that one?

[Surprise Attack!]

I fail to see how 'different' translates into 'more powerful'. If I'd want to suggest an outright buff for the GKCD, what reason would I have to masque that? The only point I'd explicitly suggested buffing the GKCD, had been when I was describing my current perspective on the ability Maelstrom, and how it just appears quite lackluster as it currently stands and I provided reason as to why this is apparent.

Why would I interpret that as "buffing?" Well, quite frankly, that's what OP's thread is about, and your post was written as a reply to this thread.

Also because you talk about buffing the GK Dread:

My suggestions:

Increase the Maelstrom radius of effect by 5, or find a way to shorten or remove the immobilisation when used.

Alternatively Maelstrom could be re-worked entirely, so it can be used more as a destructive or disruptive ability, rather than what appears to be a cheaply appropriated secondary EF.

For a default ranged weapon, an in-built storm bolter as most GKD dedicated to close-combat would have within their nemesis doomfists, though if that seems too difficult to implement torso/wrist-mounted would also work.

As for the grenade launcher option. Grenade launchers are already available to GK through IST, however I don't think it's an ill idea, but as it currently stands I don't know anyone who would ever consider spending 75/25 for it, unless they were in a large-scale match type such a TFFA, 3 v 3 or FFA and had more resources than they know what to do with, or just to try it out of curiosity.

Those are all buffs you've suggested - not just the Maelstrom part, but also the the ranged damage and the grenade launcher's cost.

Giving something ranged damage is a buff over its existing state. Cheaper options are a buff. More wargear/accessories/upgrades are buffs. And finally, I'm not really sure why you would expect me to feel those aren't outright buffs.

In response to the fact that you did not like me talking about the ranged variants, I'm not sure why we can have a balance discussion about dreadnoughts without talking about all the options of the dreadnoughts.

I understand that this is a balance mod first and foremost, and I don't think that we should give units things simply because we can.

Not really too sure what you mean here. If you'd care to clarify I'd appreciate it, but for now I'm just going to assume you're saying this because of the initial misinterpretation and the seemingly mistaken inference you'd made, of that I'd implied to buff the GKCD, rather than just alter or rework the current ability and trait.

Torpid puts it rather nicely:

Another point to make is that just because "it would be nice" to change something is not a reason to change it. Change should bring us closer to "perfect balance". While such a thing may be impossible to achieve surely nobody would doubt that we have gotten closer to it over time, or at the very least COULD HAVE done so. So, changing the GK dreadnought's mechanics in melee just to make it distinct from the SM dreadnought is a moot point unless doing so would bring us closer to "perfect balance".

[Deaf Board]

You are not solely paying for the 100hp and maelstrom when getting the GK melee dread.

A sound point. Though what I tried to educe in that statement was that this the end-result you are left with after such an investment.


I suppose bringing up the ranged variants was inevitable, and probably even more so when I made the side-by-side comparisons of the melee Dreadnoughts, I see that now.

So as it currently stands, the second-tier Dreadnought variants mostly seem to have abilities to compensate for their weaknesses.

The default ranged variants have none, and I'd imagine this is because, just as Torpid had stated, ranged variants of Dreadnoughts tend to be more versatile. The two variants that don't start with an ability cost less than the one that does, that being the SM Dread, which makes sense as it begins as a less versatile variant, and has a slightly higher cost. Upon purchasing an upgrade, depending on what its functions are, it may grant the Dreadnought an ability as recompense to something it may lack after the purchase is made. Take the Assault Cannon for an SM Dread for example, is granted a barrage so it may continue to disrupt infantry while maintaining some distance. A Khorne Dreadnought, without Blood Rage would not be able to endure much, even with its additional 200 hps, and against snares it would suffer tremendously, but fortunately the ability vastly increases its speed as well as halves incoming damage and significantly increases damage output; the downside of course being for the duration it is AI controlled and pursues the closest target within it's melee charge range, leaving this as a sometimes hefty gamble depending on the circumstances.

My point is, they each receive an ability unique to them and that serve an end to which they cannot fulfill with just their equipped weapon and stats. Yes, it's true a GKCD has BOTH Maelstrom and EF, meaning it can probably keep heavy melee infantry that are not unshakable off of it for just a while longer, but this extra 3 seconds of inactivity from melee attackers isn't going to be making that much of a difference.

Secondly IST are more prevalent than scouts in GK build orders as well as being more combat capable too. I think this privilege warrants

The only times I see an abundant amount of IST squads from people are usually in team games. Going for more than 2 IST squads in a face-to-face match type is usually ill-advised, as they tend to bleed you through t1 (each having the same hp value per model as a standard gaurdsman), and if you decide to get anything else on top of them, you'd be breaching the upkeep threshold which will just add to the dry-out of requisition. While it is true that initially Scouts are less capable at delivering damage, they are quite a bit faster than IST and have quite a few hit points per model, meaning that there is a lesser chance a model will drop, thus reducing the chances of having to reinforce and also maintaining their max dps output for a longer time.

Now that you bring this up, might as well also point out the fact GK are the only faction that currently do not possess any alternate methods to increasing the survivability of their vehicles.
Chaos, Plague Champion can act as an extra repair unit, and Nurgle Worship can slowly recover the hp of vehicles within the radius. Chaos Sorcerer can also assist in increasing the survivability of vehicles through use of his Warp global. Then there's TM for SM, Eldar Wraithbone on WL, shield on Falcons, IG have two units that can repair and the bunker. Is this because they are one of the two factions that only hold three vehicles in their roster? I can't say for sure, but I definitely think it makes getting a fairly priced vehicle a lot less appealing, of course unless the situation seems to beg it.

guess what are the best counters to melee walkers? Set-up teams.

I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. While I acknowledge set-up teams are an exceptional way to deal with the majority of melee-oriented walkers, I would say the most crucial thing to dealing with them is a kind of snare. Yes, I'm aware Havocs and SM Dev teams when using lascannons snare the target (unless infantry of course) per successful shot, and I'm not saying that raw AV dps alone won't be enough to do the job (dependent on circumstances), but when you go and say 'set-up teams' I'd naturally assume you include Brightlance GP, D-Cannon GP, Plasma Devs, Beamy Lootas and so forth. Reason why I reckon anything that is able to snare it would be better, is due to the fact it will vastly improve the chances of the unit being eliminated in that single engagement, given you have the sufficient AV to do so, it won't be able to pull off as many melee swings (which in case you're unaware, reduce ranged damage received by 50% while in the motion) and on the off-chance you rather ignore the walker and focus infantry instead, either because you don't have sufficient AV or because you'd like to try and isolate the walker by forcing off surrounding infantry forces.

The FC is nowhere near as durable as the BC nor does he do as much damage. You pay for this privilege.

Yes he isn't... if you want a durable FC, you'd get the IH which is around the same cost as the BC's UP. The difference of 180 hps initially is not what I'd call "nowhere near as durable". No, what I would say is nowhere near as durable is a difference around 300 hps or more, as the Warlock, Apothecary, LA and so on possess. Now, when you say the FC doesn't deal as much damage, I'm not too sure I can ascertain how you conceived this as he DOES in fact deal more damage. In overall performance he is able to. I hope you write this knowing BC is also the slowest commander out there (clocking in at an extraordinary speed of 4, which is how fast Tactical Dreadnoughts in this mod currently move for those that aren't sure how fast that is), not to mention the difference in rotation rate. All of the FC's weaponry deals more damage than the BC's. The only exclusion is the Daemon Hammer. Just impertinent to conduct a comparative between only their DPS. DPS for melee just gives you a rate, the damage divided by the swing speed and assumes that whatever is being attacked is not moving at all and does not factor in the potential of special attacks, of which most the FC possesses are devastating in comparison to the BC's.

just because "it would be nice" to change something is not a reason to change it. Change should bring us closer to "perfect balance".

"Perfect balance"? I assume you mean a point where a large majority of the player base is congruent and content with how each faction or just MP aspect differs from the others respectively. Otherwise, I'm not sure, there are other titles out there under a similar genre that have much larger player bases, and people still will complain about the balance. Reason is flawed by opinion, that will never change I fear, and my opinion on the GKCD at the moment remains the same. Currently some parts of the GK faction to me just seem to be a carbon copy of the SM variant, with a few tweaks, different upgrade choices and statistical differences just to separate the two. I would say which but I think I've digressed far enough thus far, so I'd rather not.

Dreads ARE NOT SOLO UNITS.

I know that... I was merely exemplifying how even under the influence of Maelstrom, a rather slow and dedicated melee AV unit can still reach it, to support why I don't really think Its intended to ever be used as an escape/save function. The only time I've witnessed it successfully working in that manner is when you time it just right, after you've gained enough distance from something that has a particularly slow swing speed, as the Warboss with Klaw or FC with PF (unless he has AoA or Teleporter, which will allow him to easily get back within melee charge range) just as they finish a swing.

meanwhile your army is forcing off said heavy melee genestealers while they're stunned/snared.

I honestly don't know what you're on about here. There is no scenario I'd ever imagine GSB with Rending Claws assaulting a full hp GKCD, even if both players had a reasonable army to match the others. When I referred to GSB in my first reply to the thread, I was implying they have the potential to keep up with the GKCD, right after being affected by Maelstrom, nothing more.

basically what im saying is that GK is the best melee dread in the game, that extra ability could mean EVERYTHING in a game. dont undervalue it.

The day I witness that ability salvaging a match of any kind in its current state will be the day the Astra Militarum runs out of conscripts to expend... and yeah, that's your opinion, I would say the most cost-effective melee walker currently is the SM Dread, since it can be upgraded to inspire almost twice as much per kill with DA and the extra durability, there may be some initiative to keep it melee until t3, depending on the foe/s of course.



Anyway, came up with another suggestion, since the radius increase could be a bit much.

Get rid of EF from GKCD, and just make Maelstrom more potent.

I'm thinking something like either instant 50 psychic damage, and ability knock back so that it doesn't get absolutely wrecked by Tactical Dreadnoughts, since EF was the only counter it had for them. Maybe make the knock back force around the same as an EF, or leave it is as is... whatever sounds less ridiculous. Radius would stay at 15. It would still retain the 60% slowdown for the 7 seconds. No chain/domino effect on knock back.

Alternatively the damage could be a DoT of 60 psychic delivered over the 7 second duration or a reasonably adjusted rate.

[Nurland]

Just want to say that BC counters most inf. based AV harder than FC imho. He is so much harder to force off or control + halberd/hammer are insane dps weapons compared to FC weapons.

Not a GK expert but (again imo) GK melee dread performance/cost seems pretty good to me.

[Cheah18]

I concur with the previous post.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Well, considering that the Chaos kdread is also 510/150, has the same DPS(unless you activate Blood Rage), and at level 4 has around the same HP as the GK Dread at level 1...

I'm not sure if we should buff the melee GK dread to 200 dps just because it costs 510/150.

Bloodrage beats GK dread now & outdamages it ,it has gud synergy with CS/Tzeetch/Khorne worship,etc . GKCD doesn't have that privilege .

[Ven]

Well, considering that the Chaos kdread is also 510/150, has the same DPS(unless you activate Blood Rage), and at level 4 has around the same HP as the GK Dread at level 1...

I'm not sure if we should buff the melee GK dread to 200 dps just because it costs 510/150.

Bloodrage beats GK dread now & outdamages it ,it has gud synergy with CS/Tzeetch/Khorne worship,etc . GKCD doesn't have that privilege .

but you dont get a melee dread to counter a melee dread. if a GK sees a Kdread first, they'll get a vindicare assasin, if the chaos player sees the GK dread first, they'll get a Tdread.

[Nurland]

Yeah... Kdread beats a GK dread 1v1 but then again GK dread has an 2 abilities that are not exactly risky to use. Kdread has more damage but less crowd control. I would gladly take GK melee dread over Kdread in most situations

[Surprise Attack!]

Well, considering that the Chaos kdread is also 510/150, has the same DPS(unless you activate Blood Rage), and at level 4 has around the same HP as the GK Dread at level 1...

I'm not sure if we should buff the melee GK dread to 200 dps just because it costs 510/150.

Bloodrage beats GK dread now & outdamages it ,it has gud synergy with CS/Tzeetch/Khorne worship,etc . GKCD doesn't have that privilege .

I've never tested it before, but ok, bloodrage beats GK claw dread in a 1v1 situation. But the game we're playing isn't Warhammer Dreadnought Fighting Championship, and you guys seem intent on focusing the comparison solely on this aspect.

You can't base balance on a dread vs dread vs dread moshpit situation. You have to take into consideration all kinds of different things, such as the composition of the army of the specific dreadnought, how well that dreadnought is countered by other armies, how well the dread's army can respond to these counters, and what other options the dread you're talking about has.

Not to mention the fact that every unit has downsides. GKCD has great control abilities for its price in addition to naturally high HP. It's downside? It's not remarkable in melee versus similar dreadnoughts. Kdread is unremarkable without bloodrage, during which it can do funny things, such as abandon pursuit of scouts and murder the nearby chaos sorcerer. Or, moments before engaging in combat with the Ork Warboss, abandon the engagement to pursue fleeing guardians into the enemy base only to be killed by buttloads of AV.

[Cheah18]

You can't base balance on a dread vs dread vs dread moshpit situation.

Yeh! Obviously the dread with the highest sneaky rating is going to win this one while the stronger ones are going at it.~

Edit: ...and that's CLEARLY Plasma dread