Grenade Launchers for Imperial Guardsmen/Storm Troopers?

[Oddnerd]

I've been playing Elite for a couple months now and have been primarily playing IG - and there seems to be one weakness they possess that I have had a hard time compensating for. IG are the only race with no jump troops - which would seem to mean they don't have a true hard counter to suppression weapons. Eldar also don't have T1 jump troops (minus WSE), but they can at least outshoot the suppression weapons in a firefight by attacking them from a distance (and therefore forcing the enemy to make the next move and counter the rangers). IG do not have a T1 sniper, and while catachans can shoot their grenades, they are still what I consider a soft counter, because after the initial knockback, the catachans are not engaged in CC in the way ASM, stormboyz, raveners, and raptors are. This means the IG player has an amount of time equal to the setup time of the weapons team to either win the fight and force a retreat by ranged damage alone, or engage in CC with one of their units (otherwise the suppresison attack begins again). In the early tier, this means the IG pretty much has to be fighting on the enemies terms one way or another, because early tier IG really should not (assuming equal skill level) have the edge in CC against any other race, nor can they have the final one-up in a ranged fight.

I am curious to know what everyone thinks about allowing guardsmen (and later on storm troopers) to have grenade launchers as an upgrade. They would not do obscene amounts of damage, but would be a way of out-ranging suppression weapons, and therefore force the enemy with suppression weapons to do more than just sit there and let suppression win the fight. My concern is that because IG do not have jump troops or a T1 long-range weapon, they have no clean method of dealing with suppression, while every other race does. I know the lord general has nade launchers, but the purpose of a commander should not be to fill in for a major weakness of a race, the strengths and weaknesses of a race should not be based on the assumption that one specific commander is taken, otherwise there will always be one good commander and two crap ones.

Thoughts?

[krimson]

In my mind IG has few main weaknesses -

1. lack of hard counter to suppression
2. Lack of walker kind of vehicle
3. AOE vulnerability
4. Mass range with suppression and artillery
5. Need to blob ur army

Now 3,4 and 5 are ok as each race has some weakness. But using artillery spotters is not really that useful as they can be countered very easily by variety of compositions - involving jump troops/melee.

Guardsmen with grenade launchers would allow some fightback ability. Low/No damage but more disruption is probably required to balance.

[krimson]

Which makes me think they will make artillery spotters obsolete...but they can be more high damage squad.
whereas guardsman are mobile and has less cooldown on the grenades.

[Surprise Attack!]

This is IG, so Torpid or someone else will have the final word on this. I'm not an expert with IG, but I see a few problems with this list:

In my mind IG has few main weaknesses -

1. lack of hard counter to suppression

Spotters? Smoke completely shuts down setup teams and mortar shell slightly behind knocks setup teams into range of GM wall of flashlights.

Smoke also shuts down AWD, but it might be hard to predict when AWD get triggered, someone familiar with Orks can clarify this.

Catachans also do a number on setup teams with Ol' Reliable.

2. Lack of walker kind of vehicle

Sent, technically. I know you're thinking walker as in Dreads or WL, but the Sent comes very early to make up for its "weaknesses" and has a few strengths of its own, namely its incredible speed.

Properly micro'd sent stomp counters setup teams as well - stomp it into GM flashlights, but only do this when you don't need the stomp to force off melee.

3. AOE vulnerability

Until a Chimera, GMs are definitely. But any high model count squad suffers from this, except maybe Eldar due to high mobility.

4. Mass range with suppression and artillery

Not sure what you meant by this one. Manticore is arguably the best arty in the game and IG ranged firepower is a force to be reckoned with, especially when under LG/LC buffs. LG also has some damn sick off-map arty as well, and the LC's flare is a like a second smoke round from Spotters. Rocket run is probably the best nuke in the game.

5. Need to blob ur army

Agree with this one, but again, many factions have this weakness.

Now 3,4 and 5 are ok as each race has some weakness. But using artillery spotters is not really that useful as they can be countered very easily by variety of compositions - involving jump troops/melee.

But Spotters really shouldn't be anywhere near the front lines where they can be countered. And so what if they get jumped? Their abilities don't exactly require channeling, so they can just retreat off. Besides, unless it's a giant map or there are two squads of tics in retreat path, Spotters would be better off in base while their abilities are on cooldown.

Guardsmen with grenade launchers would allow some fightback ability. Low/No damage but more disruption is probably required to balance.

I know very little about balance and how this would change balance, but I feel like this might make GMs too powerful against similar high-model count squads such as 'tics or Shootas.

What the IG do have a weakness against is jump troops. Of course, though, that's why the Sent and Catachans exist, and later on, Ogryns. Chimera can also help if you pop your guys in immediately to protect them from on-land effects like kb or suppression or stun(ass marines/raptors/stormboyz, respectively).

The problem, however, is that due to the lack of dedicated melee, a Raptor can still jump in, suppress everything, get shotgun blasted by Cata's, then simply retreat without losing too much while the rest of the chaos army bum rushes the IG blob. This problem cannot be solved by GLs, and I'm not really sure if it should be solved, as all factions have inherent weaknesses that make them unique and challenging in their own ways.

Hope this helps

[Kithrixx]

Catachans are the infantry you're looking for because they already have access to grenade launchers. The Catachan tradeoff is that while they don't continue disrupting once disruption has been dealt (aka they do not remain in the area and tie up the suppression in melee), they're not stuck there either because their "assault jump" was a bunch of ranged projectiles. Giving Guardsmen grenade launchers will just make Catachans less important, and I'm not sure that's the best course of action. If the decision was mine, I would consider giving Catachans an upgrade that brought in a second grenade launcher that either upgraded the initial barrage with a delayed second wave or just gave the Catachans an identical secondary barrage ability not linked to the cooldown of the first one to use at the IG players' leisure.

On a side note, the Imperial Guard do not lack "walker vehicles" because they have Ogryns, who like many IG units have a wacky tradeoff. Their tradeoff is that they are a reinforcable squad of super heavy infantry, making them subject to the IG's substantial infantry buffs and making them less vulnerable to hard AV but leaving them very vulnerable to stuff like plasma and knockback. When examining the Imperial Guard faction design, you have to consider that they were made with the intention of providing an army that put a twist on most of DOWII's mainstay elements (another example can be found in the Lord General's retinue).

[Dark Riku]

@Oddnerd

This is more of an "IG vs suppression teams" thread than a suggestion of wargear, wargear that won't be a good addition.
IG indeed does not have a jump unit but they certainly have plenty of counters for suppression teams.
At the same time IG also does not have the drawbacks of jump units being expensive, prone to bleed and risky in use.

As Suprise Attack already mentioned (and I agree with most of his post), spotters shut down suppression teams while also being useful versus melee charges and all ranged units.

About your examples, Catachans can move in after the barrage and tie up the suppression team, you even have enough energy for a shotgun blast if you want to play safe. You can also just throw a Catachan smoke grenade on your blob, reducing received ranged damage by 50% and lowering received suppression by 100%! (something many people just seem to forget)

IG can definitely have the edge versus/in close combat and in ranged fire fights in T1 with equally skilled players!
I don't know why you would think otherwise.

[ChrisNihilus]

If you want Grenade Launchers to add a little more impact on Suppression Team but don't want to replace Spotters... give Grenade Launchers to the Spotters.

Now they have some soft anti-suppression utility when their abilities are on countdown.

[Torpid]

Spotters ARE a hard counter insofar as for their cost they make set-up teams redundant against your composition. Yes, they can't solo set-up teams, but tankbustas can't solo walkers/tanks either. It isn't about soloing, hard countering is about being very very effective for the cost against a particular type of unit. Spotters are that.

All the IG heroes get suppression counters in T1 too. The inquisitor can move forward at the opposite side of the engagement to the sentinel - if the sentinel draws the suppression fire the inquistor HOTWs it, if the IQ draws fire the sentinel stomps the set-up team. You can combine either of those two things with an ol reliable to hard counter one set-up team. She can also infiltrate herself or catachans with silently.

The Lord Commissar can flank around rather easily using his power sword's lad by example ability which lets him move at speed 8.5 for a short while. You can combine that with ol reliable to tie up set-up teams quite easily. He also has his flare, but that's not really a 'counter' since it is so unreliable. He can also get the carapace armour so that he becomes suppression immune himself after executing any unit. Combine that with his lead by example ability and you can easily tie up suppression.

The Lord General has his grenade launchers to inflict really good damage vs set-up teams hiding in cover and to abuse line of sight blockers. He can also use move move move to allow catachans to close the distance after ol reliabling a set-up team much faster, this guarantees that they can shotgun blast the set-up team straight after. He can also get the carapace armour to literally make his units suppression immune.


Sentinels soft counter set-up teams too. Especially if the set-up team is outside of cover. Just keep the sentinel at max range and under double repairs and slowly it will peel models off the set-up team and force it off, you lose time but nothing else.

One other often overlooked set-up team counter which is very effective vs chaos who don't get noise marines as well as orks is the las-turret! It isn't affected by suppression so it will easily outshoot enemy suppression teams even when not being repaired and under repairs it takes no damage at all.

While IG overall do suffer vs set-up teams far more than other races like eldar, chaos or SM they make up for it by being extremely powerful vs melee in T1 and having the most cost effective generic ranged combatant unit in the game throughout all tiers - guardsmen.

The lack of a walker is a bad thing sometimes as you can't as easily force the foe to build loads of AV as IG. But then again they also get access to T2 SHI and that can be game changing. Vs some BOs of chaos (1 csm, too many tics and PMs + dread/BC for example) or eldars who get way too many shurikens/avengers or orks who go for a shoota spam/loota spam and fail to get a weirdboy or T2 ogryns and their SHI are basically game-enders as none of those compositions can even dent them. Not to mention T2 guardsmen are just insanely good, if IG wasn't so weak to artillery and could get a walker then T2 guardsmen would definitely need a nerf, nothing can compete with them in T2 except for artillery/suppression.

[Cheah18]

On that walker note: Sometimes I find the Ogryns in lieu of a walker to be an advantage.

The SHI armour acts -similarly- against piercing and the melee/disruption/chase capabilities and mobility of ogryns can be indispensable. Though they bleed, they can escape much more reliably whereas misplacing a walker is frequently tantamount to its demise.

Because Grenade Launchers are so iconic to imperial guard, it disappoints me that (as far as I can see) there is very little a case to make for their addition to IG. More importantly, there is a potentially strong case AGAINST such an addition.

[Oddnerd]

If you want Grenade Launchers to add a little more impact on Suppression Team but don't want to replace Spotters... give Grenade Launchers to the Spotters.

Now they have some soft anti-suppression utility when their abilities are on countdown.

The exact same thought had actually crossed my mind, thanks for mentioning this. At the moment the cooldown of the mortar means that it is a once-per-engagement ordeal. I think it would really make the spotters an all-around ranged support unit.

[Surprise Attack!]

If you want Grenade Launchers to add a little more impact on Suppression Team but don't want to replace Spotters... give Grenade Launchers to the Spotters.

Now they have some soft anti-suppression utility when their abilities are on countdown.

The exact same thought had actually crossed my mind, thanks for mentioning this. At the moment the cooldown of the mortar means that it is a once-per-engagement ordeal. I think it would really make the spotters an all-around ranged support unit.

I'm still not sure about this to be honest.

Again, not an IG expert by any means, but unless you're considering this from a purely team-game perspective, the spotters should really be good for that one engagement. The thing about spotters is this: You get a smoke shell and a mortar shell on different cooldowns, and either of them will shut down the suppression team in question, with the exception of maybe a purgation squad or shootas' AWD. Basically you get two shots at getting the suppression team with the spotter before it, as you say, runs out of usefulness.

On top of that, there is literally no risk involved at all with using a spotter, unlike say, raptors. If I jump in a raptor into a blob of stuff, I'm potentially jumping into a really bad situation I don't know about, whereas the spotter squad just needs to lob a shell at it and call it a day.

Spotters ARE a hard counter insofar as for their cost they make set-up teams redundant against your composition. Yes, they can't solo set-up teams, but tankbustas can't solo walkers/tanks either. It isn't about soloing, hard countering is about being very very effective for the cost against a particular type of unit. Spotters are that.

I think Torpid says it great here: I mean, there are tradeoffs involved here, and as a result I think that if you gave spotters nade launchers powerful enough that make them soft suppression counters, it'd be a little too overwhelming. I mean, as it stands, versus a Chaos Havoc, for instance, spotters are probably preferable to jump troops due to the melee resistance aura Havocs now get. Sure, if you miss both shells, you're kinda screwed, but the upside is that you're still doing it from relative safety instead of potentially jumping into a bunch of cloaked coruscating flames ac tics.

Then there's the fact that IG have quite a bit of soft anti-setup already. I mean, I've seen people get by versus suppression squads with just catachans. Knock the team over, and focus fire it down then swap to another target. Sentinel missile launcher also does very well against some setup teams, and I believe you can set it to attack ground in fow if you know where the team is.

[Kithrixx]

If you want Grenade Launchers to add a little more impact on Suppression Team but don't want to replace Spotters... give Grenade Launchers to the Spotters.

Now they have some soft anti-suppression utility when their abilities are on countdown.

The Spotter already has a "backup" - if you mess up disabling with the smoke shell, you hit them with the mortar (and vice versa). On top of that, they can get an Incendiary Shell as well, meaning they have a whopping three different ways to completely screw over a setup team without any real risk to themselves. Spotters don't need a fourth option, especially not when all of the IG heroes have ways of countering setup teams and when Catchans exist.

If for some reason balance and/or faction design doesn't get your gab, giving the Spotter a weapon upgrade of any kind wouldn't really make any kind of logical sense because a Spotter's job is to be a forward scout that directs artillery barrages, not to actually get into combat. While they are soldiers, artillery spotters typically have weapons as an afterthought or a courtesy rather than any expectation for them to contribute to a fight directly because their job is to use their binoculars and big-ass radio to tell the guys several miles away what to blow up.

[Cheah18]

Incendiary and Explosive shells share a cooldown so really the two of them should only count as one way

[Kithrixx]

Incendiary and Explosive shells share a cooldown so really the two of them should only count as one way

The Incendiary shell being available gives the Spotter area denial which has a different strategic application from damage and knockback. They do share a cooldown, but they don't accomplish the same task, so they are separate ways to deal with a problem.

[Cheah18]

It sounded like you were using the two examples to show how many counters to set-up teams IG has... Really Incendiary and normal shells is just one.

And Incendiary is tier 2 anyway by which time you have way more set up counters.