Average Joe's tournament?

[Cheekie Monkie]

I know that this has been discussed before, but now that the beginner's tournament have been dusted off...is there a possibility of hosting an average level tournament?

No hour cap requirements, but one which allows casual players to participate and duke it out without getting matched with a top tier player in the monthly rumbles. I know you might say, "just take part in the monthly rumbles! You might get curb stomped, but at least you'll learn something!"

But the thing is getting curb stomped isn't pleasant. I don't know about other players, but it does put me signing up. I'd like the opportunity to play in a competitively casual playerbase who know they aren't beginners.

I admit that it does take effort - referees, casters etc and you might think "do we need three tournament tiers in such a small game?", but I think the idea warrants a one off experimental test at the very least. People who do well might gain the confidence to participate in monthly rumbles. People who don't do so well might be encouraged to improve in the beginners tourney.

[Torpid]

That's what the MRTs are for.

Do you think we were all born with pro micro and understanding of the game?

I'm pretty sure competitive casual is an oxymoron or at least a good description of everyone because in the few years I've played DOW I certainly haven't earned more than a few hundred euros haha, so that's casual.

If only more people bothered to be competitive and joined this tournaments at a mid level then there would be a good chance someone like you Monkie would be able to enter and not meet a "pro" in the first round, it's the fact that they don't that makes the MRTs look like... I don't know the FIFA world cup, tennis grand slams, I'm not good at sports analogies.

I am in total opposition to this. It segregates the community even for and for no good reason other than mid-level players don't want to put in the time or effort to get better but want the pride of "winning" (if not then what else?). It's terrible for the longevity of the game and the more this behaviour goes on inevitably the worse the skill-base of DOW will become as the game dies and dies. Competitive play is one of the things that will keep this game alive, segregation will kill it sooner.

[Cheah18]

I dunno Torpid... I get your point but beginner - intermediate - advanced seems like a natural way to group participants in, well, anything, and I think its pretty tried and tested.

Don't get me wrong I was probably going to try to participate in the next big tournaments. But there is a large no-mans land between beginner and, frankly, the average player in those tournaments? Correct me if I'm wrong there.

[Torpid]

Maybe I don't think there should be "noob tournaments" either?

[Cheah18]

That doesn't mean your position on intermediate tournaments has to be the same GIVEN beginner ones exist as it would be were they to not.

[Cheekie Monkie]

That's what the MRTs are for.

Do you think we were all born with pro micro and understanding of the game?

I'm pretty sure competitive casual is an oxymoron or at least a good description of everyone because in the few years I've played DOW I certainly haven't earned more than a few hundred euros haha, so that's casual.

If only more people bothered to be competitive and joined this tournaments at a mid level then there would be a good chance someone like you Monkie would be able to enter and not meet a "pro" in the first round, it's the fact that they don't that makes the MRTs look like... I don't know the FIFA world cup, tennis grand slams, I'm not good at sports analogies.

I am in total opposition to this. It segregates the community even for and for no good reason other than mid-level players don't want to put in the time or effort to get better but want the pride of "winning" (if not then what else?). It's terrible for the longevity of the game and the more this behaviour goes on inevitably the worse the skill-base of DOW will become as the game dies and dies. Competitive play is one of the things that will keep this game alive, segregation will kill it sooner.

Well yes, the ideal is that people from far and wide participates in the MRT's, but the reality is that mostly top tier players participate in them. There might be a few plucky David's standing up against the Goliaths, but it's undeniable that a lot of people are put off just looking at some of the names on that list.

I do agree that there are risks in segregating a small community, which is why I suggested a trial run. Winning does feel good, I won't deny that. Failing that, close matches of 2-1 are preferable to crushing 2-0 defeats with 500-0 VP's, both as a motivator and as a learning tool. Sometimes all you learn from getting your ass kicked is that you just got your ass kicked, which is a poor motivator to learning more about the game.

The objective of such a tournament is to allow a format that allows intermediate players to push themselves to the limit without the demotivation of getting completely and utterly steamrolled. Like I said, a healthy side benefit may be that players who do well would be encouraged to take the next step in coming to the MRT's.

Personal development and competitiveness develops over time. You don't start playing at the World Cup level, you start off with local teams and work yourself up from there. Like Cheah said, there's a no man's land gap between a beginner's tournament level to top tier play which MRT's draw.

[Torpid]

Elite mod Championship = pros, best of the best.

MRTs = Free for all

Noob tournaments = ?????

[Cheah18]

I think its fun and beneficial to a player (or athletes etc) to be able to compete at a level that is similar to theirs. Its exhilarating for players who will enter an MRT with no hope of doing well never mind winning to compete with a chance to succeed. And it is in that state of mind where you can really unlock potential and develop your skills, far more so than playing with no hope. Ofcourse, playing with the big boys is a great way to learn in itself, via having your weaknesses getting crushed, but its hard to see what works for your game too and develop it too. You need to draw experience through all types of games, its a holistic thing. I think beginner competition is a significant contributor to this experience gaining and is very healthy for those involved.

[cakeauxcoings]

I was thinking of some sort of tourney like that recently and I totally agree with Cheah and Cheekie. There's such a skill gap between the two kind of tournament we got.

[Atlas]

Now that I've been kicked out by the organizers I was planning on just hitting the next MRT really. I don't even think we get a full bracket all the time so I don't really see the point of more splitting.

If I have to 2-0 another scrublord in Ro16 to advance then oh well, but I don't think we need to add a mid-level tournament just so players like Forest can win a game

[Swift]

It's a hard one to justify or get right both at the same time, there are people out there who don't feel ready for MRT level because they see the best of the best flock to it, but at the same time how can you mark an intermediate? At that point we all play at different levels in different ways. I have over 700 hours in the game and I can beat someone with a couple hundred more than me but get beaten by different people who would be classed as "beginners".

My view on this is, whilst it is a nice idea for people are are afraid of who they will face some pro in an MRT, ultimately the kind of people who would play in an average tournament just need a kick up the arse to join an MRT. I have played in a couple MRTs and the EMC group stages, I was no good at all but doesn't mean it cannot be done. Get some confidence and be productive, use what Eerie sets up and if enough "averages" join you can probably get somewhere. My opinion on what Torpid says about beginners tournaments is not favourable either, they exist to include the beginners in the tournament and community scene to encourage more play from the lower levels and make sure they are ready to compete in MRTs.

Though I imagine most people who saw this thought TL:DR.

but I don't think we need to add a mid-level tournament just so players like Forest can win a game

No comment

[Batpimp]

That's what the MRTs are for.

Do you think we were all born with pro micro and understanding of the game?

I'm pretty sure competitive casual is an oxymoron or at least a good description of everyone because in the few years I've played DOW I certainly haven't earned more than a few hundred euros haha, so that's casual.

If only more people bothered to be competitive and joined this tournaments at a mid level then there would be a good chance someone like you Monkie would be able to enter and not meet a "pro" in the first round, it's the fact that they don't that makes the MRTs look like... I don't know the FIFA world cup, tennis grand slams, I'm not good at sports analogies.

I am in total opposition to this. It segregates the community even for and for no good reason other than mid-level players don't want to put in the time or effort to get better but want the pride of "winning" (if not then what else?). It's terrible for the longevity of the game and the more this behaviour goes on inevitably the worse the skill-base of DOW will become as the game dies and dies. Competitive play is one of the things that will keep this game alive, segregation will kill it sooner.

you make it seem as if its just some small step. I am no noob but I wouldn't win single match vs all the last few MRT players in 1v1. Why even bother to try to play then? There is 40-50 guys in my category at least I have a chance in winning vs winning ZERO matches for current and previous MRT players.

Scenario: Alright im ready for Saturday, im first up lets do this XYZ player..both matches over in 10 minutes..meanwhile the tourney is still 5, 6, 7 hours long and I would have played 20min max? Shit I might as well play 3v3 or 2v2 and have fun.

THATS the issue.

[Vapor]

The better solution IMO is to have someone run a stream on the weekend for intermediate exhibition matches - the idea being that having people watch you play on twitch makes the game more exciting. Players would rotate in and out after each match (maybe king of the hill style, with a max of 3 games in a row?).

The problem with an intermediate "tourney" is there's no clear skill cutoff...

[Torpid]

Scenario: Alright im ready for Saturday, im first up lets do this XYZ player..both matches over in 10 minutes..meanwhile the tourney is still 5, 6, 7 hours long and I would have played 20min max? Shit I might as well play 3v3 or 2v2 and have fun.

THATS the issue.

But the more people think this the greater the issue becomes and the less people think this the less of an issue this becomes. It isn't an issue. More intermediate level players should enter the MRTs, they are open to all.

[Batpimp]

Scenario: Alright im ready for Saturday, im first up lets do this XYZ player..both matches over in 10 minutes..meanwhile the tourney is still 5, 6, 7 hours long and I would have played 20min max? Shit I might as well play 3v3 or 2v2 and have fun.

THATS the issue.

But the more people think this the greater the issue becomes and the less people think this the less of an issue this becomes. It isn't an issue. More intermediate level players should enter the MRTs, they are open to all.

that is unfortunate I agree. That glass ceiling might clear but its FUCKING THICK!

[Torpid]

Scenario: Alright im ready for Saturday, im first up lets do this XYZ player..both matches over in 10 minutes..meanwhile the tourney is still 5, 6, 7 hours long and I would have played 20min max? Shit I might as well play 3v3 or 2v2 and have fun.

THATS the issue.

But the more people think this the greater the issue becomes and the less people think this the less of an issue this becomes. It isn't an issue. More intermediate level players should enter the MRTs, they are open to all.

that is unfortunate I agree. That glass ceiling might clear but its FUCKING THICK!

I've been trying to throw down a hammer to smash through it to y'all with these forums. Unfortunately I think a few people didn't catch it...

Even for those that did though. It takes a lot of blows to smash that glass. One swing certainly won't cut it.

[Cheah18]

Glass analogy is about glass.

[Cheah18]

Also, love this:

The better solution IMO is to have someone run a stream on the weekend for intermediate exhibition matches - the idea being that having people watch you play on twitch makes the game more exciting. Players would rotate in and out after each match (maybe king of the hill style, with a max of 3 games in a row?).

The problem with an intermediate "tourney" is there's no clear skill cutoff...

[ShowMeMagik]

Can we also organise a tournament for people that have been playing a while but not particularly high skill. Sort of just below mid level but better than beginner, somewhere around my level of play?

I think the problem with an average Joe tournament is how the hell do you monitor who is "mid level". Who gets to join this tournament? Everyone? Or is it just people you think you have a chance of beating? I just dont see how you can police this to make it work.

I dont see how you have to have a tournament to get better, I mean I dont play 1v1 very often but if I wanted to I could find games to practice? Why not just play 1v1's, set up a forum post to find like minded players and play them, practice, get better and then get into the MRT.

I assume there is some sort of qualifying procedure?

[Swift]

Can we also organise a tournament for people that have been playing a while but not particularly high skill. Sort of just below mid level but better than beginner, somewhere around my level of play?

I think the problem with an average Joe tournament is how the hell do you monitor who is "mid level". Who gets to join this tournament? Everyone? Or is it just people you think you have a chance of beating? I just dont see how you can police this to make it work.

I dont see how you have to have a tournament to get better, I mean I dont play 1v1 very often but if I wanted to I could find games to practice? Why not just play 1v1's, set up a forum post to find like minded players and play them, practice, get better and then get into the MRT.

I assume there is some sort of qualifying procedure?

This is even harder to organise than an average tournament. The Beginners tournament is for people like you Magik since it often attracts those on the borderline level such as yourself.

[Cheekie Monkie]

I appreciate the fact that the MRT is meant to be a free for all brawl for which anyone and everyone is supposed to join in the fun. However, the reality remains that a lot of people are intimidated by the high level players on show. This indicates that the system is flawed and is in need of assistance in order for it to function as intended.

My suggestion wasn't to further segregate the community or even to run counter to the MRT. On the contrary, one of its aims would be to support and grow the MRT playerbase. You see, confidence isn't something which you get on a whim, or even on command. You can tell someone to man up and join the MRT scrap, but what does that player gain in summoning the confidence to do so? Most likely by getting scrapped himself, probably whilst being streamed. It either takes a streak of masochism or sheer iron will to persevere through this. Imagine you've just started boxing. You're paired with Muhammad Ali on the first round. On live TV. How many people would continue their boxing careers after this?

It's more effective to have people's confidence be validated and have the chance to grow gradually. Players like Atlas are good exemplars of how effective multiple bracket divisions can work. You've started at the bottom. You've had your share of victories, had some tough fights and even had some time in the limelight by being casted. You're now ready to take the next step forward in further improving your game - hence enlarging the playerbase confident enough to take on the MRT!

As to who qualifies as an intermediate may be done on a honour system basis - those who would classify themselves as intermediate. Many people are aware of the 'big names' that put them off and this is meant to provide a less intimidating format in which people can play at. The more I think about it, the more I think that an ideal format would provide less emphasis on the 'tournament' side and more on providing a means in which people who would classify themselves as average can train and gain confidence whilst having the community aspect of casting, all within an organised setting.

I'd fully support and help out on an intermediate exhibition weekend. It's more accessible and less time consuming than a full blown tourney, as well as possibly being less taxing to organise logistically.

[Torpid]

The more I think about it, the more I think that an ideal format would provide less emphasis on the 'tournament' side and more on providing a means in which people who would classify themselves as average can train and gain confidence whilst having the community aspect of casting, all within an organised setting.

I'd fully support and help out on an intermediate exhibition weekend. It's more accessible and less time consuming than a full blown tourney, as well as possibly being less taxing to organise logistically.

This I can get behind and support.

I apologise if I came across to bluntly earlier or if I came across as selfish or arrogant. Arrogant was not the intention and while I do of course have a selfish interest here I think it is a noble one few would argue was "unjust" - It isn't that I don't want such tournaments because people would take away from my pride, no no no, come on, this game isn't a professional sport, any ego attached to it really does not constitute a significant chunk of my personality.

Instead the reason why I don't want such tournaments is that I want more and more high level players to play against and I want DOW to thrive for as long as possible, yet I feel having such tournaments would discourage people from really grinding as hard as they must to get to that higher level of skill because what would the incentive be for them to do so?

[Ven]

keep in mind that the beginners tournament isn't JUST for beginners, sure it was open to beginners but the cutoff point for the most recent one was 500 hours or so. for some people, they turn "intermediate" at 300 hours or so. it really depends on the player.

i mean, in the semi-finals/finals of the 5th BT, it wasn't a beginners tournament anymore, me, atlas and snuggle were all playing for the most part on an intermediate level. (until rhino happened in that 2nd game, grrrrr)

also, about MRT, yea; it may be intimidating to some people. but then again, so would an intermediate tournament. but the BT however really isn't, atleast from my point of view. that first fight with atlas in the semi-finals was one of the most fun games i've had in a 1v1. it was an absolute blast; and im likely going to be signing up to some MRTs in the future. BT 5 really made me want to do more tournaments; especially after i made friends with some of the big cheese's like max power, yarrick, and swift, and getting to know nurland and torpid and the likes has been fun aswell, because of this im really not that intimidated by MRT anymore, the higher level players dont give the impression of unstoppable robots that are programmed to play DOW2 to perfection that i got from them from when i first downloaded ELITE.

i think the point im trying to get at here is, that pretty much 90% of tournaments are intimidating regardless of whos playing them. BT being the exception ofcource as you can hardly expect perfection off of someone who signed up to the BT. thats what needs to be rectified somehow, and tbh the mod being called "elite" doesn't help xD

The better solution IMO is to have someone run a stream on the weekend for intermediate exhibition matches - the idea being that having people watch you play on twitch makes the game more exciting. Players would rotate in and out after each match (maybe king of the hill style, with a max of 3 games in a row?).

that sounds interesting, how exactly would that work? and what format?

also i have to agree with torpid here. the BT is for those new to the game or those that feel they suck at 1v1s (like me) and the MRT while available to everyone is still something a lot of players feel they need to be "good" at the game for. well, the game is there. go learn it if you have the time to invest, and if you need help. then here are the forums for you to ask questions etc. i mean, even though i consider myself an intermediate player; there is still things i like to ask on the forums.

[Vapor]

that sounds interesting, how exactly would that work? and what format?

A streamer hosts a lobby called "1v1 intermediate". Loser of each match swaps with the next observer in line, winner stays in for up to 3 or so games before giving up his slot.

If there's enough interest/streamers it might be possible to host multiple lobbies simultaneously.

[appiah4]

My initial reaction to the idea was that it was great. They I read on, and the whole "competitve casual" oxymoron ended up making (no) sense. So yeah, you start out as a noob, then you become good at the game or end up being mediocre. Mediocre is just another name for experienced incompetent. Just like there are good noob players and bad noob players, there will have to be good experienced players and bad experienced players. I'm one of the worse ones, and today I realize that doesn't mean I deserve my own competitive niche. My niche is casual games, if I partake in competitive games, I'll just suck. End of story.

[Swift]

Then how about we trial this with a stream one weekend in January, see if you can drum up some interest on the forums and Vapor, if you are willing, since it is your idea, could organise it. I can always help out, but I am no intermediate player.

[Vapor]

Well I'm out of town til mid January but I might be able to do something near the end of that period. In any case we need streamers, since I can't really do commentary beyond shit talking my opponents while I'm playing.

[Nurland]

Community gaming nights would be cool. I mean I am not opposing mid lvl tournaments either.

[Ven]

Well I'm out of town til mid January but I might be able to do something near the end of that period. In any case we need streamers, since I can't really do commentary beyond shit talking my opponents while I'm playing.

i should be able to stream it. especially if its going to be on a weekend. (Sunday evenings i might not be able to)

[Nurland]

Can also most likely hop in if somebody needs a co-swagster