Hellfire rounds

[Sub_Zero]

The general consensus is that this unit is suited for fighting any threat. But in order to keep that balanced this unit doesn't deal a lot of damage to any specific target. And I think this concept is alright. But what bothers me is that their anti-LI rounds took a hit absolutely needlessly.

With no doubts their strength is the strength of a T2-unit that by default should be better than any similar T1-unit. And when tactical marines with a sergeant (probably already level 2 against a light armoured race in the early T2) deal only 3-4 dps less to LI units, I really question the decision to take away the basic DPS of hellfire rounds. This DOT is the thing that improves their anti-LI damage. That is just not right for them to be that ineffective against LI given how much better they become at dealing with targets of other armour types. How you ever assumed they had been too good against LI when we have tzeentch marines or strike squads who deal way more damage to LI and also being almost as versatile as these sternguard veterans whose purchase is one long way (drop pod or from the HQ -> sergeant -> upgrade that removes all experience).

Sternguard veterans now lack the initial punch vs light armoured squads, when the DOT kicks in some damage is done but the initial burst of damage is what really important in this game.

I suggest giving them back the standard DPS (14 dps) and their DOT is the thing that differs them from standard tactical marines.

I just refuse to understand how that is considered too powerful. Too powerful on retreat? Then the problem is in DOT, why reduce their basic DPS? Though I don't see here a problem too. There are no other prominent effects of hellfire rounds. Maybe the DOT ignores 50% damage resistance of units in melee, count that too then. But that is what makes them a unit worthy of their tier and their hard accessibility, isn't it?

[ol'smithy]

I brought this up before the newest patch was released somewhere in the balance thread. Anyway, the justification was that sterns are a generalist unit so they have to do an average job vs every armor type because otherwise they would be too OP.

[Magus Magi]

Sternguard have consistently required a large micro investment (diligent round switching, even more so now against commanders), been highly susceptible to interruption (you can't double up on them), and afforded painfully mediocre damage (approx 13-15 dps per model depending on target and round type) for an outrageous cost (levels plus resources).

The only thing that ever came close, I mean at all close, to being overpowered about them was hellfire rounds. And the only reason why hellfire rounds risk being overpowered is because they have a damage over time effect that goes through retreat.

For Pete's sake, I say get rid of the damage over time effect all together. It's a broken mechanic with no counterplay anyway, and it's served as a crutch that's held the unit back consistently. Until the latest change, it was the only reason people bothered to purchase SG at all.

Get rid of the DoT on Hellfire, boost their damage to around 16-17 dps per model against all targets (around what tacticals do with bolters and kraken rounds activated against HI) with the right rounds loaded in, and call it a day.

No more SG running around for the ENTIRE game with hellfire rounds loaded in, no more squads getting wiped out by mark target and hellfire damage, and no more SG getting completely out-shot by just about every other ranged unit in the game (with a very few exceptions). 68 dps for the whole unit, requiring all that round switching, isn't even close to broken when you can only get one squad. Compare that to the other, far more spammable, ranged squads, requiring less than a 20 population investment, that other factions have.

In the alternative, key the four round damage types to the four infantry armor types and leave tactical marines with AV capability while boosting SG dps and relegating them to entirely anti-infantry. They aren't MoT marines if you can only get one, you have to switch between 4 round types, you have ATSKNF, and faster capping. It's not the same unit, it has its own role for its own army.

[Sub_Zero]

If they lose this DOT, I will definitely not like it. This is a good mechanic and just a flat DPS increase will seem boring. And I personally would not say that this is that strong as you claim. The only units that are threatened by it are melee oriented ones. One just have to adapt to it and be more careful, retreat a little bit sooner than he would in other cases. Howling banshees can chase a squad across the whole map and that is how they punish you. Here are sternguard veterans for you, with a significantly less punishing effect.

A little bit off-topic but I have to bring it here. With the recent patch sternguard veterans became really potent. If you see them running around with their hellfire rounds loaded in all the time then the player who uses them doesn't know a thing. They are a 100% desirable purchase against races with HI, SHI and vehicles. But not so much now against other races who are more centred around light squads. But that is not the way of a versatile squad to be ineffective under certain circumstances, is it? That is why I am asking to bring back their little bit of the basic DPS and IMO they will become fine against light squads.

[Nurland]

@Magus "Large micro investment"? No offense but I never found switching SG rounds very taxing to micro. It is only a press of a button anyway.

And if ppl have been running around using only lulfire by choice and because you forgot to switch means that they have really not used the squad very well.

[Magus Magi]

@Nurland, everything in perspective right? Compared to most squads, I think that 4 alternating round choices is a staggering amount of micro. And SG come with additional inherent costs and limitations that are anything but normal.

Most squads have one or two situational abilities max. Considering I have to babysit my SG considerably more than a Chaos player has to babysit his MoT marine blob, or a Grey Knight player has to babysit his SS, or an ork player his shoota boys/flash gitz, or an eldar player his warpspiders/dire avengers/fire dragons/wraithguard/dark reapers, or a tyranid player his termagants/venom brood/ravenors, or a guard player his storm troopers/kasrkin/guard squads, the fact that SG damage is so low is just a mistake.

The input and output for SG just don't add up to me.

As for your comment about "lulfire" rounds. I COMPLETELY agree. I just think people use them as a crutch/they overshadow the other rounds/and create an excuse not to buff the squad as a whole.


@Sub_Zero I like the new SG better too. I don't mean to give the impression I don't. And I like that the other rounds got love (especially kraken). I can also see where you are coming from with Hellfire. I guess I'm worried that the damage over time effect is sort of holding SG back. When I imagine SG damage increasing, I think most people's concern about it must flow from the notion of SG wiping squads in a banshee-esc manner. It can't just be the flat damage, because 16.5 dps per SG model wouldn't be anywhere near exorbitant for their price and micro requirements.

SG have that DoT effect because Caeltos thought it would be a good idea, but nothing needs to be set in stone. It may be a cool mechanic, but switching between 4 unique rounds is pretty sweet as is. I don't think the DoT is needed. I think it just over-complicates the balancing act between the individual rounds.

[Nurland]

Switching SG rounds is literally pressing 2 buttons in succession if you don't have SG selected. That is like saying Tac kraken bolts significantly taxes your micro.

DA require significantly more micro than SG. 5 vastly different abilities which most of them are more troublesome to use than switching the ammo type. T2 SS require a lot more micro than SG. Warp Spiders require more micro than SG. So do Dark Reapers imho. Scouts and heretics tax my micro a lot more than SG.

[Ven]

i thinks what he means is that you actually have to think for a second about what round to use. its still hardly micro heavy, especially if you have a fast reaction time and are not a potato. but its more micro heavy than mashing a Waaaghhh!! button.

anyway back on topic. i completely agree with sub_zero. this change to SG was completely unwarranted. i never heard any complaints about hellfire, hell i heard more about MoT marines and i dont see them being changed. you can only get one squad of SG yet you can get as many MoT marines or plague marines as you want (plague marines is the closest comparison i could think of in the space of 30 secs, with their dot and the missile) if the dot on retreat is what caused this change then thats what needs to be changed.

also, im going to crunch some numbers here

Fully upgraded MoT squad: 15+25+30= 70 power. they do not loose their levels when upgrading. you can get as many as you want

SG squad. 25+30=55 power. so for 15 less power and level reset, you get less dps per model than MoT marines on ALL infantry targets. might i mention that MoT marines without EW are 55 power, yet still have more dps. AND THEY KEEP THEIR LEVELS.

right now, SG are very rare to see, SG offers versitility... that tacs already have and in some cases do better for a little more investment. imo SG really just needs to be completely reworked. just like magus said most of the time they were bought for hellfire, and the vengence was some nice soft AV, and that was about it. NOT ONCE have i see dragonfire been used, and kraken has only recently started seeing use in light of the hellfire nerf.

[Cheah18]

Dragon fire is actually so decent haha. Its so underused because it takes, well, much more focus in your micro, but yeh it shreds things who think they're safe in cover.

[Myrdal]

With no doubts their strength is the strength of a T2-unit that by default should be better than any similar T1-unit. And when tactical marines with a sergeant (probably already level 2 against a light armoured race in the early T2) deal only 3-4 dps less to LI units, I really question the decision to take away the basic DPS of hellfire rounds.

You're completely ignoring the fact that SG DoT deals constant full damage, any reduction from damage modifiers such as from abilities (eg. infiltration, FoF, Swamp 'em, distortion field, refractor field, defend etc etc), all types of cover, retreating and units in melee, are ignored. In case it isn't obvious by now, SG far outperform regular tacs in typical ranged combat scenarios. Since people like to compare with MoT csm; against LI with 50% dmg reduction (eg FoF, ligh/heavy cover or when in melee) they should be on equal footing with fully upraded MoT csm.

I just refuse to can't understand how that is considered too powerful. Too powerful on retreat? Then the problem is in DOT, why reduce their basic DPS?

There, now you sound less like a fool. Nope, the numbers was just a bit high considering their very attractive trait and we just decided to leave the DoT alone for now (it was reduced against commanders though to give Kraken a slight edge).

Sternguard have consistently required a large micro investment (diligent round switching, even more so now against commanders)

How so? Right now both Kraken and Hellfire are good vs commanders, so fewer cases of needing to switch.

SG have that DoT effect because Caeltos thought it would be a good idea, but nothing needs to be set in stone. It may be a cool mechanic, but switching between 4 unique rounds is pretty sweet as is. I don't think the DoT is needed. I think it just over-complicates the balancing act between the individual rounds.

Agree with this although I've no major problem with the DoT. Over-complications are abundant in dow2 but I mostly enjoy them.

[lolzarz]

I personally think that shooting guards, er, sternguard should simply deal more damage across the board. There is no reason why their base damage is at tactical space marine level, seeing that they are veterans. Hell, sternguard deal less base damage than tactical marines, because the tactical marine sergeant is apparently Clint Eastwood with his bolt pistol. I would go on a rant about giving sternguard sergeant his chainsword and bolt pistol for special attack goodness (as well as additional ranged damage, apparently), but that's for another thread.

[ol'smithy]

The changes are a bit confusing. I don't remember anyone complaining about sternguard being OP before the change. Reminds me of those wtf moments back when Relic released new DOW2 and Company of Heroes patches (ie. tac nerf to 990hp)

[Cheekie Monkie]

Since we're delving into SG balance in general instead of strictly speaking about hellfire, I'd like to point out to people that the level reset is a double edged feature of the SG, not a strict disadvantage. Why? Because you get to heal and reinforce for 'free' on the field, get an 'unkillable' sergeant as well as purchasing the upgrade itself. How many upgrades can say this?

Sometimes I grab sternies just because I've already lost two tac models. On the verge of losing a ranged firefight? Stick your tacs in green cover, start upgrading and spam the retreat button whilst doing so.

However, I will admit that sternies lack a 'killer edge' for its cost. Even against guard and tyranids, plasma might still be the better option to pop orgryns, warriors and the TG. And you really need the burst of the missile launcher to take down light vehicles. Being a generalist is fine, but sometimes sternies feel like a jack of no trades.

P.S. Can you please make it so SG stops the firing animation when switching ammo. Currently it feels like they're shooting NERF bullets when doing so.

[Sub_Zero]

You're completely ignoring the fact that SG DoT deals constant full damage, any reduction from damage modifiers such as from abilities (eg. infiltration, FoF, Swamp 'em, distortion field, refractor field, defend etc etc), all types of cover, retreating and units in melee, are ignored.

Am I? Too powerful on retreat?, Maybe the DOT ignores 50% damage resistance of units in melee, count that too then - these are my words that testify that I AM NOT COMPLETELY IGNORING THESE FACTORS. I omitted some details, yes, I did.

So when you say things like YOU ARE COMPLETELY IGNORING and suddenly I prove that wrong, who looks like a fool?

Nope, the numbers was just a bit high considering their very attractive trait and we just decided to leave the DoT alone for now (it was reduced against commanders though to give Kraken a slight edge).

This is a 625 req/55 power T2 limited to 1 unit we are talking about. The access to whom is really через жопу. How does that alone not justify giving it back its basic DPS?! 14 dps mean that they are not worse than standard tacs at dealing damage, that DOT is their bonus because they are REALLY expensive and hard accessible.

Correct yourself if you wish and do not touch the way I put words. When I say "I just refuse to understand how that is considered too powerful" then I imply that I am truly outraged by your decision and I brought all arguments to reinforce my point.

[Torpid]

There is a difference between being outraged at something and being indefinitely outraged at something. That was the point. I liked your early point though about how "completely ignoring" was wrong. Haha, linguistic pedantry <3

[Indrid]

Whether people were complaining about Sternguard or not is irrelevant. Things don't only get rebalanced because people are whining about them.

I don't get what all the uproar is about here though. IIRC it was a tiny 2 DPS nerf to Hellfire base DPS or something, and sizeable buffs for Kraken.

[Sub_Zero]

It is not tiny. 4 models, -2 DPS from each model results in -8 DPS from a squad. And that is not tiny already.

That is really hard to judge about precise numbers. One can think that 2 is a lot, and some other person thinks that 3 is not enough. I foresee that any agruments will be pointless if we try to persuade somebody that 3 is not enough when he thinks that 2 is a lot...

[Myrdal]

Am I? Too powerful on retreat?, Maybe the DOT ignores 50% damage resistance of units in melee, count that too then - these are my words that testify that I AM NOT COMPLETELY IGNORING THESE FACTORS. I omitted some details, yes, I did.

Even if you attached an entire essay on dow2 damage mechanics in your post I'm still going to point out your "3-4 dps difference to LI units" premise is utter ignorance. I felt I had to make this clear because the OP is very misleading as it stands. It doesn't help that the codex is out of date, we're working on that.

The changes are a bit confusing. I don't remember anyone complaining about sternguard being OP before the change. Reminds me of those wtf moments back when Relic released new DOW2 and Company of Heroes patches (ie. tac nerf to 990hp)

It had nothing to do with SG being OP, the biggest nerf was to vengeance rounds that completely overshadowed kraken vs all targets. Kraken received significant buffs to make it more attractive, yet the focus has somehow been on a very minor nerf to hellfire.

[Ven]

Am I? Too powerful on retreat?, Maybe the DOT ignores 50% damage resistance of units in melee, count that too then - these are my words that testify that I AM NOT COMPLETELY IGNORING THESE FACTORS. I omitted some details, yes, I did.

Even if you attached an entire essay on dow2 damage mechanics in your post I'm still going to point out your "3-4 dps difference to LI units" premise is utter ignorance. I felt I had to make this clear because the OP is very misleading as it stands. It doesn't help that the codex is out of date, we're working on that.

The changes are a bit confusing. I don't remember anyone complaining about sternguard being OP before the change. Reminds me of those wtf moments back when Relic released new DOW2 and Company of Heroes patches (ie. tac nerf to 990hp)

It had nothing to do with SG being OP, the biggest nerf was to vengeance rounds that completely overshadowed kraken vs all targets. Kraken received significant buffs to make it more attractive, yet the focus has somehow been on a very minor nerf to hellfire.

i think people including myself didnt like the nerf as it wasnt really needed. even if it was a slight nerf it was still, from our perspective very unnecessary. the buffs to kraken was nice, but we're still asking "why?" plasma gun tacs keep their levels and are more effective vs HI than kraken SG. and vs LI, tacs are on par if not slightly better vs LI than kraken SG due to their sargents boltpistol. so the question here is... why? tacs are already stupidly versatile, and you pay 30 power for what exactly? like 4-5 dps more dps vs LI with hellfire or less dps than plasma gun tacs vs HI, that might i add cost the same, and keep their levels. SG are also more expensive to reinforce so that permanent sargent in some cases just isnt worth it.

[Torpid]

Gotta remember the plasma gun and missle launcher are both burst-firing weapons too, which is very useful for actually killing stuff instead of damaging them. This is a trait all the sternguard ammo types lack.

[Nurland]

Yup... This is a bit badly structured post since I am answering late at night from my phone so apologies but I wanted to address some issues pointed out by ppl.

Plasma gun tacs are crappier against LI, cover, garrisons and vehicles due to Lulfire, dragonfire and vengeance. They also outperform vanilla Tacs in these situations. Vengeance rounds have fire on the move which is something the ML does not have.

Imo SG are a niche upgrade mostly effective against against Orks and Eldar and/or when you want to deal with a hero.

[Wise Windu]

plasma gun tacs keep their levels and are more effective vs HI than kraken SG

The plasma gun costs 30 power and prevents the squad from being effective against vehicles at all without another 40 power investment. Their upgrades cost a decent amount of power, and can't be re-equipped for free. So you buy a sergeant and the Sternguard upgrade for 55 power, and you have pretty decent versatility without ever having to put in any more power cost, whereas with the tacs, losing the sergeant will cost you another 25 power, and any weapon swapping will be costly.

So you're locking yourself out from certain damage types for a large spike in specified DPS with Tacs, or making yourself decent against most types of units, and those in cover, with limited micro involved and without ever having to spend power on the squad again, with the Sternguard, but locking yourself out from those large damage spikes. Seems fine to me. But you do have to make some supplementary AV to make up for it. Then again, if you get a Plasma gun on the Tacs, you'll have to spend more on AV as well.

and vs LI, tacs are on par if not slightly better vs LI than kraken SG due to their sargents boltpistol.

That's what Hellfire is for. It's still really good against infantry. Kraken is for HI targets and commanders. Not really sure what you were trying to get at here.

and you pay 30 power for what exactly? like 4-5 dps more dps vs LI with hellfire

Which ignores cover multipliers, lots of abilities and deals great damage on retreat. It's still really good. You're paying 30 power for the versatility, permanent sarge + permanent ATSKNF, and non-existent future power investment.

or less dps than plasma gun tacs vs HI, that might i add cost the same, and keep their levels.

Discussed above.

SG are also more expensive to reinforce so that permanent sargent in some cases just isnt worth it.

...by 8 req. It's hardly significant compared to a potential 25 power re-purchase. Although I guess that can change if you end up being req starved later on. But still, 8 req.

It is not tiny. 4 models, -2 DPS from each model results in -8 DPS from a squad. And that is not tiny already.

That is really hard to judge about precise numbers. One can think that 2 is a lot, and some other person thinks that 3 is not enough. I foresee that any agruments will be pointless if we try to persuade somebody that 3 is not enough when he thinks that 2 is a lot...

It's a minor nerf to a weapon that was overshadowing every other weapon type the squad had, and would often never be switched out throughout the course of an entire game, even when fighting different armour types, just so they wouldn't have to be switched when the LI was targetable again. Which is baffling to me, considering how easy the micro on the squad is. It's still really effective IMO. All this fuss over it doesn't really seem justifiable to me.

[Dark Riku]

Just want to share my opinion here without really contributing The rounds seem rather fine atm. Small changes can always happen. The thing I still find unacceptable is that the sternguard upgrade makes you lose the exp that the squad had.

[Nurland]

Yeah the loss of xp is a pretty big downside that i think SG should probably not have.

[Myrdal]

I'm not sure but them losing their levels might have been due to technical reasons. Nothing that can't be solved though.

[Cheekie Monkie]

I suppose that the level reset can be partially offset by giving SG the same starting health as level 2 tacs, which is currently the same system as vanguards.

I mean that if there's a consensus that the level reset puts people off so much from getting SG, a partial solution would be to buff level 1 SG to the health of a level 2 tac squad.

[Sub_Zero]

I'm still going to point out your "3-4 dps difference to LI units" premise is utter ignorance.

Utter ignorance? You definitely need to think what words you choose.

Standard tactical marines with a sergeant DPS: 14.58 x 3 + 15.64 = 59.38
Standard tactical marines with a sergeant (level 2*) DPS: (14.58 x 3 + 15.64) x 1.05 damage modifier = 62.349
Sternguard veterans DPS: 12.83 x 4 + 3.50 DOT x 4 = 65.32

65.32 - 59.38 = 5.94 (the error in my approximate calculations is 1.94 DPS)
65.32 - 62.349 = 2.971 (no error in my approximate calculations)

*Tactical marines can and do kill a lot of weak LI-based models and gain enough experience to be level 2 when they are given a sergeant

I put facts before you and you only insult me by accusing so groundlessly and wording it so rudely. Are you going to apologize at least and keep the further discussion in a friendly tone? Yet you haven't shown me a single case where I was COMPLETELY/UTTERLY/ПИЗДЕЦ КАК not right.

It's a minor nerf to a weapon that was overshadowing every other weapon type the squad had, and would often never be switched out throughout the course of an entire game, even when fighting different armour types, just so they wouldn't have to be switched when the LI was targetable again. Which is baffling to me, considering how easy the micro on the squad is. It's still really effective IMO. All this fuss over it doesn't really seem justifiable to me.

Why do you wonder that nobody bothered to switch them? Dragonfire are so situational, you almost never see them in action, kraken rounds were broken, they didn't work properly. So the only rounds you saw before the update were hellfire and vengeance. This doesn't testify that they were overpowered and warranted a nerf. This fuss is exactly because of this.

mean that if there's a consensus that the level reset puts people off so much from getting SG, a partial solution would be to buff level 1 SG to the health of a level 2 tac squad.

I've always thought that they had to be designed this way.

[Nurland]

How about you calm the fuck down and stop displaying such hostile attitude?

[Wise Windu]

Why do you wonder that nobody bothered to switch them? Dragonfire are so situational, you almost never see them in action

Dragonfire should be much more commonly used than they are. Let's take a look at HI in cover:

Kraken vs HI in heavy cover: 14.58 DPS * 1.1 * 0.6 * .416667 = 4.009 DPS in heavy cover

Dragonfire vs HI in any cover: 14.58 DPS * .67 = 9.7686 DPS in any cover

Kraken vs HI in light cover: 14.58 DPS * 0.8 * 0.625 = 8.019 DPS in light cover

There's never a reason to not use Dragonfire vs HI when they're in cover. I'll ignore garrison calculations because the benefits are obvious.

kraken rounds were broken

True

So the only rounds you saw before the update were hellfire and vengeance. This doesn't testify that they were overpowered and warranted a nerf. This fuss is exactly because of this.

Even Vengeance rounds were often ignored, whether by mistake, ignorance or laziness. But people still seemed to think that keeping hellfire loaded was preferable to better damage to other targets.

It doesn't testify that they weren't overpowered either. Not saying they were necessarily, but saying they definitely weren't with how well they performed seems a bit strange. We'll see how they perform in this patch, and if they seem to be under-performing in some way, they can always be adjusted. Plus, it's usually the DoT that does the work for the weapon, and that hasn't been changed.

Standard tactical marines with a sergeant DPS: 14.58 x 3 + 15.64 = 59.38
Standard tactical marines with a sergeant (level 2*) DPS: (14.58 x 3 + 15.64) x 1.05 damage modifier = 62.349
Sternguard veterans DPS: 12.83 x 4 + 3.50 DOT x 4 = 65.32

65.32 - 59.38 = 5.94 (the error in my approximate calculations is 1.94 DPS)
65.32 - 62.349 = 2.971 (no error in my approximate calculations)

But again, Hellfire DoT

ignores cover multipliers, lots of abilities and deals great damage on retreat. It's still really good. You're paying 30 power for the versatility, permanent sarge + permanent ATSKNF, and non-existent future power investment.

DPS values aren't the only factors taken into account, and not taking everything else into account is a mistake.

mean that if there's a consensus that the level reset puts people off so much from getting SG, a partial solution would be to buff level 1 SG to the health of a level 2 tac squad.

I've always thought that they had to be designed this way.

I think they were since they were given an increased XP gain rate, but I'm not sure if it was by design or technical reasons. The reason they lose their XP is that when the upgrade is purchased, the Tac squad is de-spawned, and an entirely new squad is spawned in its place.

[Sub_Zero]

Dragonfire should be much more commonly used than they are.

Let me reiterate and explain my point.

Dragonfire are the rounds that do the job vs garrisons and covers. You (the enemy) never want them to do the job on your units. If you have units in a garrison and they are shot at then you command them to leave and the job of dragonfire ends here. If you have units in cover and they are shot at then you command them to relocate and the job of dragonfire ends here again. That is exactly my point, that is why we don't see it in action. You either counter it or take tremendous damage and retreat. And it is really easy to counter it.

DPS values aren't the only factors taken into account, and not taking everything else into account is a mistake.

I cannot say whether you read through the whole topic but in my two messages there are notes that I take that into consideration. So I do not discard these bonuses. And my point here is that the DOT with all its benefits is the unique thing sternguard veterans get but despite that in my opinion they should not lose their basic DPS.