Imperial Guard Teching

[Tergt69]

This question is mainly for IG players:

So long I noticed the folowing tendencies in my games:
I play quite reliably in the early stages of the game (first encounters holding positions bashing after an engagement etc) but as soon as the opponent and I advance to T2 I'm dead. In t2 comes most of other races walker vehicles or heavy infrantry units that i cant really take proper care of.
When i goet to T2 with IG what do I have? I got stormtroopers - thats okay but so far they seem to me as bit "overpriced" for me since I purchase them, put the melta/anti infrantry guns on them, send them in to take out a target then they get überfocused then die or survive with 1 hp, then die in another engagement (seems to be they are like a suicide squad).
I got the Chimera wich is useful only if the enemy has no AV yet and have a tonn of infrantry (also it is not that cheap) If they got 1 single AV unit the chimera is dead for me.
I got the maticore, wich are dodged 90% of the time and quite expensive.
And finaly i got orgyns wich are usually focused down by EVERYTHING the enemy has so they might live up to 2 engagements.

(basicaly i lose all my games in midgame)

So my question is:
Do u usually entirely skip t2 unit purchases with IG and roll into t3 then go with Kraskins (or whatever they are spelled) and Leemans? Or it seems only to me that IG armyes are torn apart around t2.

thanks for the replyes in advance!

[Torpid]

No, IG has one of the strongest T2s in the game. Their T2 can beat every other races T3 except SM due to flamer termies and eldar due to the prism+ranger combo, but if they lack rangers prisms die easy to melta storms.

Your using the chimera/stormtroopers wrong if they're dying. Melta stormtroopers maybe not they're a super risky unit due to their short range and low hp, assault kit ones are different altogether they have better than average range so you keep them behind you guardsmen all the time and let the guardsmen tank damage. Use them to snipe heroes/set-up teams/light infantry while plasma guardsmen burn the heavy infantry quicktime.

Manticores are best reserved for small 3v3 maps where the enemy is blobbing a lot or for dealing with set-up team spams. Ogryns are not too helpful in a 3v3 tbh but they can be great vs piercing damage spams or ranged walkers like assault cannon dreadnoughts or tzeentch dreads. They absolutely rock in 1v1s where they require multiple squads to force off and thereby give you lots of map control presence.

Personally I very rarely go T3 with IG although I appreciate that their T3 is brutally strong in team games I find that in 1v1 their t2 most of the time does the job of the T3 just as well but with less risk since I don't have to wait for that leman and hope they don't come over and camp my natural gen-farm while I'm doing so. If you are not on a solo lane though in a team game rushing lemans can work for sure.

[Surprise Attack!]

Wise man say: lascannon hwt buff by LC execute kill walker fast.

[Atlas]

I've actually found SM and Eldar to be super pains in the rear as IG in 1v1. The IG vs Eldar matchup has been discussed to death so I'm not really going to go over that but SM is just brutal with the right setup. I'm just lucky that buying a whirlwind in 1v1 isn't a thing yet

But yeah I've been learning the hard way that IG t3 is hard to properly escalate to unless you have a ton of investment in t2. Walker dreads(depending on variant) can be taken care of by ogryns/ las hwts/ AV kit STS, and for HI you have plasma guards that can really put a dent in them for cheap.

[Tergt69]

Wow, awesome advice dumping here

So basicaly u guys say that as soon as i advance into t2 the GM squads shold be used as meatshields?
Also another question: how much do u usually invest in t1? Whenever you completely lose a squad you re-buy them or skip them for piling resources for t2?

A match yesterday: I was playing against Chaos. in t1 i got a HVT wich was I unable to protect. Chaos raptors constantly kept jumping on top of them but until my focused fire made them retreat or kill, my HWT was already dead even though i almost instantly hit the magical X buton. (as far as i know, melle hits harder retreating units). So i was constantly re-purchasing a HWT just to still have a supression squad. After 2 or 3 skirmishes like this the chaos player teched up and uterly crushed my tiny t1 army. (2 GM, Sentinel, spotter)
After the guy teched up, bought a bloodletter squad and whenever we had a skirmish, they just jumped in the midle of my troops and bashed the hell out of me The GMs were falling like flyes

Wich should have been the apropiate course of action? Repurchasing and waiting for t2 at base/grouping up with other players or simply "skipping" dead units for t2?

edit:
Also how much do you spend in t1?

[Surprise Attack!]

Wow, awesome advice dumping here

So basicaly u guys say that as soon as i advance into t2 the GM squads shold be used as meatshields?
Also another question: how much do u usually invest in t1? Whenever you completely lose a squad you re-buy them or skip them for piling resources for t2?

Depends on which squad - in general, it is never good to lose a squad. Squad preservation is one of the most important things about this game.

A match yesterday: I was playing against Chaos. in t1 i got a HVT wich was I unable to protect. Chaos raptors constantly kept jumping on top of them but until my focused fire made them retreat or kill, my HWT was already dead even though i almost instantly hit the magical X buton. (as far as i know, melle hits harder retreating units). So i was constantly re-purchasing a HWT just to still have a supression squad. After 2 or 3 skirmishes like this the chaos player teched up and uterly crushed my tiny t1 army. (2 GM, Sentinel, spotter)

Better to x-out pre-emptively.

Why did you feel the need to keep repurchasing the HWT?

edit:
Also how much do you spend in t1?

I would say that the limit to t1 units is around 5. For IG, things are a bit different because they can get by with very few power purchases. For instance, GMs and Sent(3 units) do not cost power. Vs chaos, Catachans are generally a good purchase since Chaos has so much melee. Combined with wargear purchases for your commander, you shouldn't really be spending more than 100-120 power in t1. The less you spend, the faster you can get to IG t2, which is rather powerful. As for generator farm, ideally, I believe you want just enough generators to create a powerful t1 force while getting to t2 as soon as possible. This means that the more power you can get without paying for gens via map control, the better off you will be. That said, map control is a weakness of IG.

T1 "Bare Minimum" Resource Cost Table for LG(not including bleed/gen costs)
Key:
Unit/Item - Req/Power

LG Retinue Sergeant - 85/10
Guardsmen + Sergeant upgrade - 295x2 = 590/0
Sent + Sent stomp - 350/15
Multilas Turret - 150/0
Catachans - 300/30
Spotters* - 280/30
------------------------------
Total: 1475/85 or 1455*/85

*Pick one. Very rarely will you need both Catachans and Spotters. Spotters disrupt and hard counter suppression teams and ranged blobs. Catachans counter initiate, counter melee units, detect invisible units**, and soft counter suppression teams. Catachans are also more expensive and bleed hard, while Spotters are more of a fire and forget unit that can do their thing and retreat to safety.

**Catachans are the only IG detector unit(in addition to Inq. servo skull), something worth keeping in mind. If you expect stealth units(Lictor Alpha, Kommando Nob, Chaos Sorcerer, etc...), Catachans will always be a superior purchase compared to Spotters.
-----------------------

Some notes:
Sent stomp is not something you want to rush. If your enemy is swarming your GMs with melee squads, go for it, but don't get it to protect the sentinel from harm, as it is speedy enough to get away on its own.

LG Sergeant is pretty awesome for field presence and squad preservation, a must buy in my opinion.

Demo man upgrade to Cata's adds utility, but is rather power intensive.
----------------

Addendum: Ultimately these numbers are irrelevant in the sense that they are just on-paper statistics that do not take bleed and gameplay into account. So, take it for what it's worth, but know that this is mostly just to satisfy your curiosity and not really a hardcore guide.

Someone with more experience playing IG should feel free to correct/add to this!

[Tergt69]

Thanks for the reply

I wanted to have a HVT on the field because i needed some kind of cc, because as i have seen tics and CSMs torn apart my GMs even behind cover. (so i wanted to put some pressure on his units wich as I wrote failed ) I should have just smoke 'em with the spotter?
What i never tried before is the medipac that the LG sergeant gives. I'm a newbie and if i gave a medpack to a squad its already too late to use, cos i forgot that i gave it to them . I'll try to focus a bit more on this thing in the future. (also how much hp does it heal?)
About the stomp: It is usually my first power purchase O.o usually the enemy has some kind of nasty melee unit (shees, melee commanders etc) that i want to protect my GMs from or they are blobbing guardians/GMs wich seem to be a nice target for a stomp

[Surprise Attack!]

Thanks for the reply

I wanted to have a HVT on the field because i needed some kind of cc, because as i have seen tics and CSMs torn apart my GMs even behind cover. (so i wanted to put some pressure on his units wich as I wrote failed ) I should have just smoke 'em with the spotter?
What i never tried before is the medipac that the LG sergeant gives. I'm a newbie and if i gave a medpack to a squad its already too late to use, cos i forgot that i gave it to them . I'll try to focus a bit more on this thing in the future. (also how much hp does it heal?)
About the stomp: It is usually my first power purchase O.o usually the enemy has some kind of nasty melee unit (shees, melee commanders etc) that i want to protect my GMs from or they are blobbing guardians/GMs wich seem to be a nice target for a stomp

As I noted earlier, vs Chaos, Catachans are generally better because of their power melee damage which makes short work of all kinds of infantry, particularly heavy infantry and super heavy infantry. Generally speaking, if you are getting charged by heretics, shotgun blast will stop them in their tracks. Ol' Unreliable will stop a second wave of heretics, or knock down a setup team to allow your troops to advance. Vs Catachans, heretic play generally falls apart.

Putting spotter smoke on his ranged blob is good, but vs Chaos that ranged blob is generally speaking 1 CSM squad, not 2x Shoota Boyz. He can just walk away from the smoke and it's negated. Smoke is more for shutting down big blobs of ranged fire, or setup teams that can't move out of it quickly.

HWT vs Chaos is generally speaking a bad idea simply because they have so many ways to deal with setup teams. Raptors in t1, Sorcerer Sigil, sorcerer teleport, and Chaos Lord all give stationary units a hard time in general. This isn't to say that setup teams are bad, in fact, the HWT is one of the best setup teams, especially when refractor field in t2 makes it immune to suppression and knockback.

LG med pack heals for a lot.

[Atlas]

This is quickly snowballing into a very expansive discussion, but for LG t1 vs Chaos what was said above was more or less a good place to start.Two sentinels is considered a go-to strat vs Chaos imo but you might not have the ability to control that well yet.

In that case, going for (starting) gm - sent - gm - hwt will work for you just fine assuming you have your positioning right. I would look at maybe another hwt/catas depending on enemy hero though, as that's a lot of melee to hold off on a stomp and a supression team if you've also got a Chaos Lord to deal with or a Sorceror infiltrating their approach. On top of that, the Sorceror himself shuts down setup teams very hard imo.

[Tergt69]

Here is my gameplay progression based on the advice i got from you guys:
Commander: LG
Kept the medpack in mind, helped a whole lot! It healed my half hp Gm to full in one click!
I skipped the chimera in the last few matches and instead bought double stormtroopers (1 melta/ 1 assault or both of them assault) and tried to use them from behind the GMs with very positive results. (not to mention that my squads got buffed by the sniper weapon ability from the LG - my opponents didnt even know what hit them.)
Vehice counter: HVT being upgraded to lascanon as i saw the first vehicle on the field, than sniping it with Sniper buff from across the map.
Also i concentrated more on preserving my squads + tried to minimize expenditures and tried to rush t2 as fast as possible.

Didn't try the catachans yet, but i will in the next match vs chaos or SM

Guys you gave me great advice, now i fell like I'm holding my ground in midgame!

Also I would have some questions regarding positioning of units in early game:
Where do u usually put the HWT? to the front so it will shoot enemy squads behind cover, or puting them behind your squads? (so the opponent cant see that you have a HWT there - cant jump on it)
In the case when something DOES get in the face of the HWT how do u react? Instant X, or remain there and focus everything on the jumper/teleporter/rusher unit?

[Atlas]

Assuming the enemy has something that can actually push a HWT, such as Raptors in this case then you want them behind your gm with the sentinel nearby. If Raptors jump in, you can stomp them and if you're quick you can resetup and blast them with your HWT since they can't jump twice.

That's pretty optimistic though, so when it doesn't all come together then you should look at a retreat. Keep in mind that as this is happening you need to deal with the rest of the Chaos army though, which is what your GM and hopefully your hero is doing.

[Dark Riku]

**Catachans are the only IG detector unit (in addition to Inq. servo skull), something worth keeping in mind. If you expect stealth units
(Lictor Alpha, Kommando Nob, Chaos Sorcerer, etc...), Catachans will always be a superior purchase compared to Spotters.

Sentinels also detect in range 15.

[Torpid]

**Catachans are the only IG detector unit (in addition to Inq. servo skull), something worth keeping in mind. If you expect stealth units
(Lictor Alpha, Kommando Nob, Chaos Sorcerer, etc...), Catachans will always be a superior purchase compared to Spotters.

Sentinels also detect in range 15.

The Holy Pyre ability of the Holy Brazier wargear for the Inquisitor also detects enemies in radius 20 from it.

[Atlas]

The Inquisitor in general can act as a pseudo detector. It's kinda counter-intuitive to cast holy pyre on yourself if the main enemy force is a distance out on the possibility of a cloaked unit though. However, having that tool when you know there are infiltrators around, such as when decapping or rihgt at the start of an engagement, it's a great tool to have.

The skull itself is great even if it didn't detect. 100/20 t1 wargear for farsight? Sweeeet. The obvious combo would be skull + banewolf at gen but you can also drop storm troopers way behind enemy lines with it. It also spots for Manticores and is just a nice tool to have for simple map knowledge. Plus it increases her sight range. :O

That's not to say catachans/sents aren't necessary for detection though. I suppose in a perfect micro and knowledge world you might be able to get away with pyre/skull t1 but we make due with what we got.

[Commissar Yarrick]

A good baneblade a day keeps defeat away. . .

[MaxPower]

...until a FC with Fist and Teleport arrives and calls in his big melee buddies in terminator armor

[Dalakh]

A good baneblade a day keeps defeat away. . .

I heard baneblade is super good in IG vs Eldar faction war.

[Atlas]

What I'm really having trouble with is teching from T1 to T2 smoothly actually. I'm just getting crushed by lots of scary things like double tac asm with apo, triple shootas, double shuris behind force fields oh my! Feels like I'm walking in to T2 at a disadvantage and I think that's a big part of why IG T2 is such a long phase.

[Torpid]

What I'm really having trouble with is teching from T1 to T2 smoothly actually. I'm just getting crushed by lots of scary things like double tac asm with apo, triple shootas, double shuris behind force fields oh my! Feels like I'm walking in to T2 at a disadvantage and I think that's a big part of why IG T2 is such a long phase.

Well the IG t1 is rubbish so yes, you should be walking into T2 at a disadvantage and indeed that's why IG typically ends up having a very heavy T2 - it is necessary to properly catch up and even overtake your foe. You want T1 to be as short as possible and T2 to be as long as possible.