D cannons. yep ive heard enough hate:p

[Torpid]

I'm concerned that at faster speed it will still just own low hp model squads, even with lower damage. Even faster than it does now.

Well if the maths is done properly it will be impossible for them to die faster as the dps will remain the same.

I can't see how this works out, in the same way that flamers do more damage to multiple units? Is the D-cannon not for all intents of purposes AoE? For instance if x is damage to model and y is model health, and x is more than 2y, halfing x and doubling RoF will still kill the same number of models and do the same damage? Or am I mistaken somewhere on the mechanics...

It will do the same damage over a period of time longer than the time it takes for the first shot to fire and then the second shot to fire right now. However if it is changed to have higher ROF and lower damage then the first shot will serve as a warning - it will do high damage and hit instantly but it won't wipe your squad, you will get 3.5seconds (if it fires every 7seconds) to retreat your stuff and if you fail to react in time it will shoot another shot wiping them.

Right now the first shot is so powerful you don't get a chance to react - squads like stormtroopers just die instantly from out of nowhere as you can't even see the D-cannon. So units that currently get insta-killed by it will die slower after such a change is made and units that currently don't get insta-killed by it will die at exactly the same rate since the dps is the same (assuming they die in 2 shots, if they die in an even number of shots they die at the same rate, if they die to an odd number of shots then they die slower).

[Cheah18]

I get all that I'm basically asking if there are any models that will still be getting 1-shotted notwithstanding a reduction (say, half) in D-cannon damage. Due to the damage still exceeding their hp.

[Torpid]

I get all that I'm basically asking if there are any models that will still be getting 1-shotted notwithstanding a reduction (say, half) in D-cannon damage. Due to the damage still exceeding their hp.

Probably. But far fewer, the radius of the Dcannon blast is only five. It won't affect all models of most squads such as termagants or guardsmen because they are too spread out. Those things tend to have the lowest hp per model and will be the only squads that would still end up losing models instantly post a -50% damage +100% ROF change but it wouldn't wipe them instantly.

[Myrdal]

We don't necessarily have to change the fire rate, in fact this change will not solve the problem entirely and by problem I mean the fact that players aren't alerted to the impending spaghettification of their units. As Cheah18 points out higher RoF with lower burst damage will make d-cannons considerably stronger vs larger squads such as GM but I also believe this is a buff for d-cannons overall.

True, halving the damage but doubling the RoF means less risk of sudden wipes for squads that can take the hit but I think this also means you are much more likely to take damage in scenarios where you otherwise wouldn't. You simply have less time to act within its zone so for example when attempting to disrupt it by getting closer or trying to escape you are more likely to get hit and although it's not as fatal as before it's still significant. Also consider 2 overlapping d-cannons with this change, that unit capping the vp will still be clueless he's about to become a stream of elementary particles but now this will happen in half the time.

The idea of evening out the damage is not bad, but this could be done without changing the fire rate and instead turning the attack into a DoT (not ignoring ranged damage reduction though). For instance 1/3 of the dmg could be dealt instantly but the rest over a few seconds or something like that. Another idea if possible is to just give it a marker in the area about to be hit before it does.

[enasni127]

a marker sounds good to me.

another option would be a loud and significant "spool up" sound before it fires.

[Ven]

a marker sounds good to me.

another option would be a loud and significant "spool up" sound before it fires.

marker is out of the question, especially considering the cannon tracks the targets.

the sound is a good idea though, the blastmaster and plasma cannon you can hear through the FoW but the cannon you often struggle to hear it, you only hear it fireing, and by that time its already too late.

[Torpid]

We don't necessarily have to change the fire rate, in fact this change will not solve the problem entirely and by problem I mean the fact that players aren't alerted to the impending spaghettification of their units. As Cheah18 points out higher RoF with lower burst damage will make d-cannons considerably stronger vs larger squads such as GM but I also believe this is a buff for d-cannons overall.

Not really considering by the time T3 hits the guardsmen will likely be levelled and the d-cannon itself doesn't even hit every model in a guardsmen squad unless they're incredibly blobbed up for some reason. It would only be good against things like termagants outside of synapse or default ork shootas and so on, things that should be getting slaughtered by T3 artillery pretty easily.

Double D-cannons is fair I think. That's a 800/80 investment in T3 units. At least they wouldn't able to instantly wipe an upgraded venom brood post this change like Giddolo did here:
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=300219

True, halving the damage but doubling the RoF means less risk of sudden wipes for squads that can take the hit but I think this also means you are much more likely to take damage in scenarios where you otherwise wouldn't. You simply have less time to act within its zone so for example when attempting to disrupt it by getting closer or trying to escape you are more likely to get hit and although it's not as fatal as before it's still significant. Also consider 2 overlapping d-cannons with this change, that unit capping the vp will still be clueless he's about to become a stream of elementary particles but now this will happen in half the time.

Why do you think the italics? The initial blast when approaching it will give you the same reaction time, aka none, but it will be far less severe, then you get say 3.5seconds to do something before the next blast hits, then another 3.5seconds before the third hits - at which point it would have done 440 damage before, but only has done 330 damage with the suggested change.

The idea of evening out the damage is not bad, but this could be done without changing the fire rate and instead turning the attack into a DoT (not ignoring ranged damage reduction though). For instance 1/3 of the dmg could be dealt instantly but the rest over a few seconds or something like that. Another idea if possible is to just give it a marker in the area about to be hit before it does.

How would a marker help given that it doesn't necessarily shoot at where its target was when it started winding up? Also a marker still wouldn't prevent squads getting insta-killed when you send them to back-cap somewhere. Also, I would avoid sound cues just because no all players play with sound on so it's a bit unfair

A DoT is an interesting prospect could lead to lots of death on retreat though?

[Myrdal]

We don't necessarily have to change the fire rate, in fact this change will not solve the problem entirely and by problem I mean the fact that players aren't alerted to the impending spaghettification of their units. As Cheah18 points out higher RoF with lower burst damage will make d-cannons considerably stronger vs larger squads such as GM but I also believe this is a buff for d-cannons overall.

Not really considering by the time T3 hits the guardsmen will likely be levelled and the d-cannon itself doesn't even hit every model in a guardsmen squad unless they're incredibly blobbed up for some reason. It would only be good against things like termagants outside of synapse or default ork shootas and so on, things that should be getting slaughtered by T3 artillery pretty easily.

If the d-cannon waste 50% of the damage due to overkill then reducing the damage by 50% and instead have it fire more often is more effective. This was the point raised by Cheah I believe. Granted I didn't bother to check the actual hp values of GM, you're right they will take a 110 damage shot without losses but this is a rather close call (83% of a GM models hp at level 3). So in a vacuum where there is only the GM and the d-cannon this is not a concern but if you include even minor factors such as not being at full hp or getting hit by some regular ranged fire then the effect is very noticable.

Double D-cannons is fair I think. That's a 800/80 investment in T3 units. At least they wouldn't able to instantly wipe an upgraded venom brood post this change like Giddolo did here:
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=300219

True, halving the damage but doubling the RoF means less risk of sudden wipes for squads that can take the hit but I think this also means you are much more likely to take damage in scenarios where you otherwise wouldn't. You simply have less time to act within its zone so for example when attempting to disrupt it by getting closer or trying to escape you are more likely to get hit and although it's not as fatal as before it's still significant. Also consider 2 overlapping d-cannons with this change, that unit capping the vp will still be clueless he's about to become a stream of elementary particles but now this will happen in half the time.

Why do you think the italics? The initial blast when approaching it will give you the same reaction time, aka none, but it will be far less severe, then you get say 3.5seconds to do something before the next blast hits, then another 3.5seconds before the third hits - at which point it would have done 440 damage before, but only has done 330 damage with the suggested change.

It's less severe if we consider the windup remain at 3s but the average window of time before getting hit will have gone down from 6s to 3-4s. Not a big deal though.

The idea of evening out the damage is not bad, but this could be done without changing the fire rate and instead turning the attack into a DoT (not ignoring ranged damage reduction though). For instance 1/3 of the dmg could be dealt instantly but the rest over a few seconds or something like that. Another idea if possible is to just give it a marker in the area about to be hit before it does.

How would a marker help given that it doesn't necessarily shoot at where its target was when it started winding up? Also a marker still wouldn't prevent squads getting insta-killed when you send them to back-cap somewhere. Also, I would avoid sound cues just because no all players play with sound on so it's a bit unfair

Yea I'm not sure if this is adequate or even possible but if the marker could indicate the approximate area where it will hit it would be similar to what can be predicted from a plasma trajectory and give the player a heads up to avoid taking major damage.

A DoT is an interesting prospect could lead to lots of death on retreat though?

The DoT could lead to death but it's much less severe if you retreat and get the damage reduction modifier. Alternatively the DoT is only within the hit radius.

[Atlas]

No on the marker. It's pretty rare when you have no idea where the general direction of the artillery is coming from. And I would really be careful about evening out the dps for the reasons hakon already mentioned. It's a very tight rope with this if there's any change to be made tbh.

[Ven]

which is why i think the ability needs to be looked at, not the unit itself.

it only does 10 more damage than plasma cannon, is T3, does not knock back, seems to have a smaller radius in which it hits compared to blastmaster/plasma cannon, and its also pretty expensive.

its the singularity that is the problem imo, its a bit like a mini-nuke with ability knockback, hell, some 500 red nukes dont even have ability knockback.

[Wise Windu]

hell, some 500 red nukes dont even have ability knockback.

They all do, actually. And the only one that doesn't do it in retreat is Empyreal Abyss. The ability is easy to dodge if you're paying attention. It can be powerful when combined with phase shift or something, but it's the same for pretty much any late game Eldar ability (Eldritch, Avatar). Like Torpid said, that's probably an issue with the snaring abilities, if anything.

It's very good for area denial and punishing someone for over-extending + retreating. Their projectiles though, as some other people have said, is instant, and is nearly impossible to dodge, even when already moving. When you do, it's usually luck That, combined with insta-gib levels of damage, can be pretty insane. Even an expensive, T3 artillery unit shouldn't be able to one-shot squads like that.

[Ven]

well i dont know. i feel like plasma cannons have the same ammount of killyness as a D cannon. those things are hard to dodge anyway. atleast with D cannons you know you cant dodge them so you arent forced out of position just to dodge a shot. ive lost many engagements due to dps and model losses from having to swing my WHOLE army to the left/right and out in the open. atleast with D cannons and their lack of knockback i can charge down their position with; in most cases, less bleed than carging down a plasma cannon. that knockback makes all the difference.

[Wise Windu]

Right, but with the Plasma Cannon, you know it's coming and can retreat before it gets there to mitigate damage. With the D-Cannon, it's not possible. It hits and you die, sometimes before you even know it's there at all.

[Ven]

i look at it this way.

plasma cannon is 400 req, and it forces stuff to retreat or die. so its bascially 400req to force off most squads.

D cannon on the other hand, is 400 req and 40 power. you pay that 40 power and it being in T3 for the privalage of being able to actually kill the thing or bleed it instead of just forcing it off the field. and as i've said it doesnt knockback and seems to have a smaller radius in which it hits, might i also point out that a pdev also does more DPS despite the lower damage per hit, and it knocks back, and its T2. so i think its perfectly balanced for its cost, as a unit that is. i consider the D cannon to be more like a sniper team than a artillery piece

singularity is another story. now THAT is a tad silly.

[Torpid]

i look at it this way.

plasma cannon is 400 req, and it forces stuff to retreat or die. so its bascially 400req to force off most squads.

D cannon on the other hand, is 400 req and 40 power. you pay that 40 power and it being in T3 for the privalage of being able to actually kill the thing or bleed it instead of just forcing it off the field. and as i've said it doesnt knockback and seems to have a smaller radius in which it hits, might i also point out that a pdev also does more DPS despite the lower damage per hit, and it knocks back, and its T2. so i think its perfectly balanced for its cost, as a unit that is. i consider the D cannon to be more like a sniper team than a artillery piece

singularity is another story. now THAT is a tad silly.

Ven, singularity sucks. Insta-wiping kasrkin from off the screen with no counter-play whatsoever is OP. Like Windu said singulairty is only OP in the same situation that the avatar's abilities are - when combined with things like warp throw/phase shift/time field otherwise both are very easily dodged by even a remotely observant player.

[Ven]

i look at it this way.

plasma cannon is 400 req, and it forces stuff to retreat or die. so its bascially 400req to force off most squads.

D cannon on the other hand, is 400 req and 40 power. you pay that 40 power and it being in T3 for the privalage of being able to actually kill the thing or bleed it instead of just forcing it off the field. and as i've said it doesnt knockback and seems to have a smaller radius in which it hits, might i also point out that a pdev also does more DPS despite the lower damage per hit, and it knocks back, and its T2. so i think its perfectly balanced for its cost, as a unit that is. i consider the D cannon to be more like a sniper team than a artillery piece

singularity is another story. now THAT is a tad silly.

Ven, singularity sucks. Insta-wiping kasrkin from off the screen with no counter-play whatsoever is OP. Like Windu said singulairty is only OP in the same situation that the avatar's abilities are - when combined with things like warp throw/phase shift/time field otherwise both are very easily dodged by even a remotely observant player.

not if you're half way through an engagement, you're forced to get EVERYTHING out of the way, while the eldar stuff is still shooting and bleeding you, usually leading to a lost engagement anyway.
my point is that D cannon is perfectly prices for what it does passively, but i think there should be an upgrade or something for singualrity, because singularity just makes it way too cost efficient, either gibbing 3-4 squads 2-3 times its own cost, or forcing an entire army to move in a direction they didnt want to, out of cover and making them inable to engage the eldar until its gone off, but due to eldar having high dps on other stuff, just being out of cover and not bleeding them means they win the engagement.

[Torpid]

i look at it this way.

plasma cannon is 400 req, and it forces stuff to retreat or die. so its bascially 400req to force off most squads.

D cannon on the other hand, is 400 req and 40 power. you pay that 40 power and it being in T3 for the privalage of being able to actually kill the thing or bleed it instead of just forcing it off the field. and as i've said it doesnt knockback and seems to have a smaller radius in which it hits, might i also point out that a pdev also does more DPS despite the lower damage per hit, and it knocks back, and its T2. so i think its perfectly balanced for its cost, as a unit that is. i consider the D cannon to be more like a sniper team than a artillery piece

singularity is another story. now THAT is a tad silly.

Ven, singularity sucks. Insta-wiping kasrkin from off the screen with no counter-play whatsoever is OP. Like Windu said singulairty is only OP in the same situation that the avatar's abilities are - when combined with things like warp throw/phase shift/time field otherwise both are very easily dodged by even a remotely observant player.

not if you're half way through an engagement, you're forced to get EVERYTHING out of the way, while the eldar stuff is still shooting and bleeding you, usually leading to a lost engagement anyway.
my point is that D cannon is perfectly prices for what it does passively, but i think there should be an upgrade or something for singualrity, because singularity just makes it way too cost efficient, either gibbing 3-4 squads 2-3 times its own cost, or forcing an entire army to move in a direction they didnt want to, out of cover and making them inable to engage the eldar until its gone off, but due to eldar having high dps on other stuff, just being out of cover and not bleeding them means they win the engagement.

The avatar does the same exact same thing but with a much smaller cooldown and is far more durable, buffs all eldar nearby and has good melee damage. Sure he costs more but it isn't even double the req cost and req is the most valuable resource at this point of the game, plus the avatar doesn't bleed. Is the avatar OP? I don't think so, not unless you add in factors such as warp throw/time field/phase shift which make his abilities undodgable. Simply making you have to micro slightly is not that big of a deal and that's all that singularity does, except which a much longer cooldown. I don't remember the last time singularity wiped one my squads even. I never get hit with it, it's very easy to dodge.

That said, nothing the avatar has gives him the potential to wipe a squad such as kasrkin, catachans, stormtroopers or the like from a range that is greater than the width of a full "screen" in DOW within an instant and with no counter-play. If there is anything wrong with the D-cannon it is its ability to do precisely that.

[Ven]

what im saying is that you have to put in a lot of effort to dodge your entire army away from a singularity. all the while you're bleeding and squads are being forced to retreat from the rest of the eldar army.

now things like the plasma cannon and blastmaster have the same effect but the CSM and especially SM armies dont have the same dps to back it up. infact the eldar dps is high and yet singularity inta-gibs squads ON TOP of the really high eldar dps. not to mention the invincibility shields the avengers can put down to protect it.

yes its easy to dodge, but if you dodge it, then you're not shooting at the eldar army, you melee isnt closing the distance and you're bleeding.

that being said, by itself its not OP. however, on a unit that is already worth the 400req and 40 power, it is. the D cannon by itself is perfectly priced, but it comes with singularity, which is a bit too much on a 400/40 unit that already performs to its cost.

[Vapor]

+1 to torpid.

Though I'm not really sure why long range artillery with zero travel time is allowed to exist. In the case of the zoanthrope it's sort of understandable since the damage is too low to gib things, then again the RA has this nifty global that doubles a unit's damage... Plus you can easily double up on thropes and fire at the same time.

Maybe the solution for the d cannon is to add a small warning marker. I was thinking a copy of the smallest rune from the autarch drop.

[Torpid]

what im saying is that you have to put in a lot of effort to dodge your entire army away from a singularity. all the while you're bleeding and squads are being forced to retreat from the rest of the eldar army.

now things like the plasma cannon and blastmaster have the same effect but the CSM and especially SM armies dont have the same dps to back it up. infact the eldar dps is high and yet singularity inta-gibs squads ON TOP of the really high eldar dps. not to mention the invincibility shields the avengers can put down to protect it.

yes its easy to dodge, but if you dodge it, then you're not shooting at the eldar army, you melee isnt closing the distance and you're bleeding.

So it is just like dire avenger plasma grenades then? Except slightly more damage and radius because it is a T3 ability not a T1 one?

[Ven]

Maybe the solution for the d cannon is to add a small warning marker. I was thinking a copy of the smallest rune from the autarch drop.

but how though? the D cannon tracks units so the marker would not be accurate. if anything, a sound just like the pdev/blastmaster would be adequate, because right now its way too quiet to hear.

[Vapor]

A sound wouldn't tell you which unit was about to get hit though. I don't want to have to retreat half my army to be safe. You could say "don't blob" but a guided d cannon has 107 range lol

[Ven]

A sound wouldn't tell you which unit was about to get hit though. I don't want to have to retreat half my army to be safe. You could say "don't blob" but a guided d cannon has 107 range lol

plasma cannons and blastmasters dont have markers, i dont see why a D cannon needs one.

[Vapor]

...

This is what we've been discussing this whole time. Plasma devs and blastmasters can't gib anything because you can see the projectile coming and retreat.

[Ven]

and again i'll bring up my previous points of it not actually doing much due to the lack of knockback. itll kill a bunch of models sure but its T3 for that reason, it costs 400/40 for that reason. it has the privilege of bleeding stuff or killing stuff rather than just forcing stuff to retreat.

a marker on the ground would should "IM HERE STAY AWAY FROM HERE" making it little more than area denial, which is what supression teams do better. where as a wind up sound would tell you its there while still giving you time to back off and potentially dodge it/get out of range, just like the pdev/blastmaster.

im sure if the pdev didnt have a sound, a plasam shot would shoot out of the fog of war at breakneck speeds, meaning you cant react in time, and thus gibbing squads, potentially wiping them as they'd be lower lvl in T2 than in T3 which is when the D cannon comes out. its that sound that alerts you to it, not a maker.

[Vapor]

Good luck dodging a tracking attack from a 82 (107 with guide) range platform

And yes with plasma devs it is a combination of the sound and the projectile that allows you to avoid it. When you hear the sound you move any stationary units; then, if you didn't micro all your units and the projectile looks like it's about to hit something, you retreat that unit.

[Wise Windu]

and again i'll bring up my previous points of it not actually doing much due to the lack of knockback. itll kill a bunch of models sure but its T3 for that reason, it costs 400/40 for that reason. it has the privilege of bleeding stuff or killing stuff rather than just forcing stuff to retreat.

a marker on the ground would should "IM HERE STAY AWAY FROM HERE" making it little more than area denial, which is what supression teams do better. where as a wind up sound would tell you its there while still giving you time to back off and potentially dodge it/get out of range, just like the pdev/blastmaster.

im sure if the pdev didnt have a sound, a plasam shot would shoot out of the fog of war at breakneck speeds, meaning you cant react in time, and thus gibbing squads, potentially wiping them as they'd be lower lvl in T2 than in T3 which is when the D cannon comes out. its that sound that alerts you to it, not a maker.

As a T3, 400/40 artillery piece, the D-Cannon has the 'privilege' of a very good ability, which other artillery setups don't have. The ability should be the benefit, not instant wiping. There isn't even any set up with disruption abilities. Things just die instantly, no warning. Being late game and expensive is not an excuse to have a weapon that can instantly wipe a whole squad by itself.

[Ven]

and again i'll bring up my previous points of it not actually doing much due to the lack of knockback. itll kill a bunch of models sure but its T3 for that reason, it costs 400/40 for that reason. it has the privilege of bleeding stuff or killing stuff rather than just forcing stuff to retreat.

a marker on the ground would should "IM HERE STAY AWAY FROM HERE" making it little more than area denial, which is what supression teams do better. where as a wind up sound would tell you its there while still giving you time to back off and potentially dodge it/get out of range, just like the pdev/blastmaster.

im sure if the pdev didnt have a sound, a plasam shot would shoot out of the fog of war at breakneck speeds, meaning you cant react in time, and thus gibbing squads, potentially wiping them as they'd be lower lvl in T2 than in T3 which is when the D cannon comes out. its that sound that alerts you to it, not a maker.

As a T3, 400/40 artillery piece, the D-Cannon has the 'privilege' of a very good ability, which other artillery setups don't have. The ability should be the benefit, not instant wiping. There isn't even any set up with disruption abilities. Things just die instantly, no warning. Being late game and expensive is not an excuse to have a weapon that can instantly wipe a whole squad by itself.

ive said it multiple times and i'll say it again, but singularity is a bit too powerful for the price of the D cannon. the D cannon itself is not.
usually by the time T3 hits my units are high lvl. if anything i loose A LOT more units to plasma cannon shots than D cannon shots, mostly because of the knockback. maybe its just me.

[Wise Windu]

ive said it multiple times and i'll say it again, but singularity is a bit too powerful for the price of the D cannon.

And I disagree for reasons Torpid and I have brought up multiple times as well.

the D cannon itself is not.

Instant wiping, instant damage, etc. Disagree again.

I guess we just might not end up agreeing on this one

[Ven]

whatever. i've brought pretty much all my opinions to this table, not much else to say. im not going to deliberately stress myself by arguing.