The Drop Pod

[Deuce Bigalow]

I have tried to love the new drop pod. I really have. Sadly, it pales in comparison to its predecessor. The drop pod, before it forced you into a squad of tacs, was perfect. You had a bad engagement? No problem, a little safety net will help you get back on your feet, and you will get a reinforcement point to boot. Time it right and you can even drop it on your foes and some fresh battle brothers jump out, guns blazing. FOR THE EMPEROR! Love it.

I have used the new one at least ten times now, enough to know that it is simply not as good as it used to be. For it to really be a worthwhile purchase now, you need to both lose a significant amount of units AND happen to need a tac squad. This happens rarely. In addition, you are locked into the upkeep of the TSM. If you don't ABSOLUTELY need that tac squad, it's a poor investment. It's just too niche as it stands. My request: Please, please, PLEASE revert it back to the way it was.

What do you guys think? Please only respond if you have had a significant amount of experience with both the old and new versions.

Disclaimer: I appreciate the thought that goes into trying to trying new things like this, and think that the mod team is doing some excellent work!

[Ven]

huh? im not sure about your logic here.

the drop pod is currently 100 red and 350 req. im not sure but i think the old drop pod was 200 red and some req?(not sure on the ammount)

its gotten nothing but cost reductions and its a whole tier ahead what it used to be. im not sure why you want it back to what it was before, when it was even more of a niche and arguably worse.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I asked that only those who were experienced with it respond. And if you are not sure about what you are saying (your statement about the cost), why respond at all?

The major point here was that you are locked into a tac squad. I don't know what your definition of niche is, but I used it there to me very situational. Before I didn't need a drop pod that often. Now I hardly EVER have good reason to use it, even if it's available a tier earlier.

[Ven]

I asked that only those who were experienced with it respond. And if you are not sure about what you are saying (your statement about the cost), why respond at all?

The major point here was that you are locked into a tac squad. I don't know what your definition of niche is, but I used it there to me very situational. Before I didn't need a drop pod that often. Now I hardly EVER have good reason to use it, even if it's available a tier earlier.

but... it does exactly what it did before, only cheaper, and a tier earlier.

(i think the instant reinforce got removed but thats is)

its pretty much got nothing but buffs.

please dont patronize me. this is a forum, you should explain your points, that is not what you did, so i am forced to ask. for example you never meant what you meant by "change it to what it was before" because it's given you a tac squad since 2.3.0, do you mean before 2.3.1? before 2.3.0? what it did in retail? you really, really need to expand here. or you're not going to get very useful answers.

[Wise Windu]

I think what he means is that it forces you into another Tac squad. This is the major disadvantage of the ability. If you don't want an additional Tac squad, getting the drop pod to reinforce is not very attractive since it will weigh down your req. economy with an additional squad, and you give up some red for it as well. The reinforcement is nice, but you can't get it if adding an additional Tac squad will slow you down too much or just be useless, compositionally. Price buffs are not the issue.

[Atlas]

What's he saying is that the previous iterations of the drop pod only reinforced all units around it (minus terminators) for free for 100/0/200. The new drop pod now adds a tactical squad in addition and is now in T1 and at 350/0/100.

I haven't used the ability itself that much but I do think it needs some more adjusting. Maybe just go all the way, put it back in T2 and make it spawn a Sternguard squad? Completely fresh tacs are something you don't normally want and Sterns start fresh anyways.

-Edited for correction-

[Ven]

ok thats a bit clearer there. he just said "before" and tacs have been coming from drop pods for about 6 months now, since 2.3.0s release.

i would consider the original itteration even more of a niche than the current one, i would even consider it borderline useless, i mean it was T2 and in T2 you already had a razorback which is really good in 1v1s and 99% of the time better than a drop pod for reinforcement. its even better in teamgames due to the drop pod only reinforcing your stuff.

alteast right now if gives you a cheap tac squad to get more map control in 1v1s, and in teamgames you cant really say no to more squads unless you want more pop, in which case just suicide them. right now, the drop pods main use is the knockback and the tac squad. not once have i actually used it as a reinforce point as for one, it doesnt reinforce allies and secondly, why would i pay 100/200 red for basically a gimped medical bunker that only i can use? i mean come on, even allies can reinforce off of brood nests, which makes even less sense than guardsmen streaming out of a drop pod.

i will admit that, yes a standard tac squad is kinda meh, but i think the only way that can be addressed is by dropping them in with a sargent. dropping in sterns right away might be a bit finnicky to code as you can only get one squad of them, and sometimes you want a tac squad and not sterns, like for example drop in a tac squad so you can get a quick missle launcher up on them for example.

[Cheekie Monkie]

The previous drop pod was little more than a glorified reinforce button in which I'd rather spend my red on spamming
other globals on.

I've really found use in the new global, albeit a niche one. It can really turn the tide in T1 engagements, as dropping reinforcements as well as a fresh tactical squad can really help bolster your defensive position or help you push into enemy lines. Best of all your enemy would barely have time to react to that extra tac squad firing from behind a fresh wall of green cover.

My best personal example of using the new global is when a series of skirmishes in T1 left my ASM and tac squad with two models remainining. With a heavy enemy army coming to my gens to force an engagement, I was going to lose the subsequent fight hard. Lo and behold, the drop pod proved proved enough to reinforce my army, defend my gens and help me regain map control. Not a bad global!

You may argue that it cripples your economy, but I say that an unexpected short term boost to your army can help you push an advantage for you to make gains in the long term. my only concern is that it diminishes in value over time, since a vanilla tac squad is best deployed in the early stages of the game.

P.S. If you're still hurting for a 'free' reinforce, there's always the sternguard and vanguard upgrade. Hell, I sometimes purchase them just because I lost two models off a squad, then laugh maniacally as I tell myself that I've just negated the enemy's gains (ok not really, but still)

[Toilailee]

old pod was 100 req 200 red

[Ven]

old pod was 100 req 200 red

i thought so.

so for 250 more req AND ONEHUNDRED (thats a lot) less red, you get a free squad + what the old one gave + its T1 now.

hell if you time it right you could drop a drop pod towards the enemy base if your decaping their natural or something, upgrade then with a missle launcher and finish off that vehicle that just got away. your opponent wont be expecting a misslelaucher tac squad right outside his base ready to finish off his vehicle.

if you dont want to be forced in to a tac squad then thats your loss. the old drop pod was 200 red for "oh shit need reinforcements" whcih was not worth it, now its a "oh shit need reinforcements" button for only 250 more req and 100 less res, along with a free squad.
i never ever remember even dropping the drop pod once before 2.3.0. why would i pay 200 red for an easily destroyed reinforce point and a one-time free reinforce? it was useless in the past, and obviously a lot of people did aswell, otherwise it wouldnt have been changed to what it is now.

[Toilailee]

ugh

[Atlas]

ugh

Genius Toil, genius

Anyway, with some more mulling over I don't have a lot more to say on this. It's a pretty situational global but that doesn't make it a bad one. The tac squad can do a lot for you but it would require more investment. Considering you get them for cheaper and for no power from the drop, you should have enough to get them an upgrade of some form and it can help them level faster to catch up.

[Torpid]

[
so for 250 more req AND ONEHUNDRED (thats a lot) less red, you get a free squad + what the old one gave + its T1 now.

hell if you time it right you could drop a drop pod towards the enemy base if your decaping their natural or something, upgrade then with a missle launcher and finish off that vehicle that just got away. your opponent wont be expecting a misslelaucher tac squad right outside his base ready to finish off his vehicle.

if you dont want to be forced in to a tac squad then thats your loss. the old drop pod was 200 red for "oh shit need reinforcements" whcih was not worth it, now its a "oh shit need reinforcements" button for only 250 more req and 100 less res, along with a free squad.
i never ever remember even dropping the drop pod once before 2.3.0. why would i pay 200 red for an easily destroyed reinforce point and a one-time free reinforce? it was useless in the past, and obviously a lot of people did aswell, otherwise it wouldnt have been changed to what it is now.

The point is that the "free squad" part of that equation makes it worse because squads are never free. Squads have upkeep. If you lack the composition to fit in the tacs squads - which you do more often than you would actually want an extra tac squad - then you would not want to use the global. Because that happens more than you want to use the global such a change has made it even more niche despite the cost reduction in terms of req and red.

Regarding "It got changed so the change must have been popular" you're making two mistakes. Firstly you incorrectly assume that the Elite Mod is a democratic balance modification. It is not. It is a dictatorship ran by Caeltos and potentially a select few influential characters. Secondly you assume that even if it was a democracy and therefore that changes did actually reflect the desires of the vast majority of the players that change must be for the better. This is a named fallacy - argumentum ad populum - just because most people think something doesn't mean that thing is right. In fact, I'de even go as far to say with regards to complicated and esoteric matters such as the balance of mildly popular RTS' it probably indicates that such changes are wrong. Look at how many scrubs go around claiming chaos is OP in 1v1 when chaos are just not...

[Sub_Zero]

I am a big fan of large T1 armies and I always end up getting 5 squads (2 ranged units, suppression, jump unit). It is especially vital for SM since they don't have any infantry in later tiers (pdevs are not the thing here, termies are very rare), so they completely rely on T1 battle brothers. So now I can drop generators faster and get my second tacs via a drop pod and transform them into veterans or give them a specialised weapon. So I use this global purely for a squad of tacs and green cover. I like the way it is now but you all gotta admit. The drop pod used to be very situational, it is now very situational and whatever you do to this (you developers) it will never satisfy every player's needs. Sometimes I want to reinforce, sometimes I want a new squad. But if we want this thing to reinforce only then some adjustments should be made like reducing the time it takes for a drop pod to arrive.

[lolzarz]

old pod was 100 req 200 red

i thought so.

so for 250 more req AND ONEHUNDRED (thats a lot) less red, you get a free squad + what the old one gave + its T1 now.

hell if you time it right you could drop a drop pod towards the enemy base if your decaping their natural or something, upgrade then with a missle launcher and finish off that vehicle that just got away. your opponent wont be expecting a misslelaucher tac squad right outside his base ready to finish off his vehicle.

if you dont want to be forced in to a tac squad then thats your loss. the old drop pod was 200 red for "oh shit need reinforcements" whcih was not worth it, now its a "oh shit need reinforcements" button for only 250 more req and 100 less res, along with a free squad.
i never ever remember even dropping the drop pod once before 2.3.0. why would i pay 200 red for an easily destroyed reinforce point and a one-time free reinforce? it was useless in the past, and obviously a lot of people did aswell, otherwise it wouldnt have been changed to what it is now.

We have population cap and upkeep. Dropping the squad of tactical space marines directly hinders my ability to get better units like terminators because it both contributes to my hard unit cap (population) and my soft unit cap (upkeep), in addition to costing 350 requisition. It is to the detriment of the space marine player to use drop pod in late game, because level 1 tactical space marines in late game are basically free kills for the enemy, as they die easily and deal little damage. No one wants level 1 tactical space marines in late game. This hinders the main use of drop pod, which was to give reinforcement.

[Dark Riku]

I don't get why people say that the previous Drop Pod (reinforce and reinforce point) was so bad.

Yes, the pod was niche, but that's just fine. When you retreat and have a lot of model losses but suffered no squad wipes, your eco as a SM is gone. The Drop Pod solved this. 100 req - 200 Zeal and you were good to go again. You preferably used it a bit in the field too.
It gives you a soft fall back point to reinforce. It was just great! Now when you lose a lot of models and get out, you're eco is fucked.
And most likely your chance of wining too. You're lucky if you can even reinforce everything. It was a good build in comeback mechanism.

I would prefer the previous pod way more, the red cost could go down by a lot though.
The Pod we have now is even more niche than the previous one!

[Batpimp]

I agree with riku. I used the previous one WAY more.

[Ven]

well i personally perfer the new one, but i can see the old one having a lot more use in 1v1s. however that being said it was pretty meh, borderline bad for 200 red in teamgames. i guess you cant satisfy both parties.

however that being said, i can think of many ways to make it useful in both 1v1s and teamgames. for one, 200 red is way too much, 150 might be a bit better, the fact it was T2 was a little odd aswell.

i'd say add 2 drop pod variants, one with nothing in it and one with the tacs in it? maybe the one with nothing in it resets ability cooldown for any marines that get close within the first 5 seconds of it dropping to simulate them picking up supplies from the droppod or something? might add a nice use to it aswell. (empty droppod would just be called "Drop Pod" on with tac squad, maybe w/ sargent would be called "STTTEEEHLLL REEEINNNNN")

maybe have marines reinforce for 50% of the normal reinforce cost for the first 10 seconds or so after landing?

allow it to reinforce allies? i mean come on, guardmen are birthed from broodnests and orks can come swarming out of a landraider. or even better yet swarmlords litterally shit out guardsmen.



or we could reset it back to what it was in CR and let it oneshot carnis again... i wouldn't mind that...

[DandyFrontline]

Totally agree. Drop pod should be reworked somehow or reverted. Just was going to create the same thread today, but hey, some1 did it ahead of me. It is really rare when i need to waste 350req for additional tactical squad with 1lvl witch will eat my req in future. If you ask me, i see this ability like this: available on t2, cost 200-250red 0 req 0 energy, everything else is the same. So high red cost will make you think - drop it or save for another abilities (like termis), also 2 tac's squads (+ all other units you got) eat a lot of req, so it will totally change your build.

[lolzarz]

Also, let me reinforce terminators from them. It doesn't make sense I can reinforce them from literally everything but drop pods, especially because the drop pod has a teleport homer that is explicitly designed to . I would have wanted for them to reinforce anywhere and just teleport down, but that's outside the scope of the topic, so yeah.