Shimmer Orb

[MaxPower]

Okay, let's be frank here. That wargear is way too stronk, it basically gives you a free cap/decap of a point, you can't do anything against it apart from sending im some of your own melee units (and if you are SM those are rather rare).

Because not only does it negate incoming and outgoing fire but it also grants knock back immunity TO EVERYTHING. And since the ability itself only costs 25 energy you could spam it in every engagement thanks to the 1 minute cooldown.

Did I mention that it lasts freeking 30 seconds, no? Well now I did mention it.

In order to bring that wargear in line, reduce the duration to I don't know 15 seconds maybe even shorter.
Or make it a T3 Wargear (if you dont intend on changing anything). If you still want it to last 30 seconds and being available in T2, how about you change the damage reduction (meaning Units inside the orb wont take full damage, but they won't be invincible.

Just my 2cents.

[Sub_Zero]

But when that warp spider captures a point, you just start a massive counter-attack and that is your entire army + hero against his entire army with no hero, that should go well for you.

[hiveminion]

I agree with Max, shortening the duration to 15 seconds would be a good fix.

[Dark Riku]

And since the ability itself only costs 25 zeal

The ability costs 25 energy max Not zeal

[Cheah18]

But when that warp spider captures a point, you just start a massive counter-attack and that is your entire army + hero against his entire army with no hero, that should go well for you.

If only it were always so simple.

[MaxPower]

And since the ability itself only costs 25 zeal

The ability costs 25 energy max Not zeal

EVEN MOAR OUTRAGES and fixed in the 1.post

[Torpid]

I think this is one of the cases of the annoying situation wherein something overperforms in 3v3 but is nowhere near as good in 1v1 and so if we nerf it for the sake of 3v3 we risk making it highly UP for 1v1. So the solution is to find a way to nerf it in 3v3 without nerfing it in 1v1.

Making it T3 would not do that as it would make it far less useful in 1v1 where it best used to counter set-up teams by throwing it atop them after teleporting into melee with another set-up team and therefore dealing with two set-up teams at once, or to better protect your wraithlord from ranged AV while it ventures in for a kill, away for an escape or is otherwise soloing heavy melee of theirs.

Shorter duration seems fine by me. A suppression team can tear down and relocate far sooner than 15seconds anyway. A wraithlord can solo other walkers around 15seconds, probably less. Protecting yourself from a manticore blast takes less than 15seconds and so on. 15seconds though would nerf how OP it is for grabbing those VPs in team-games, I think it's fair.

[Atlas]

Why not just make it 90% damage reduction instead of full immunity? 1v1s shouldn't be a big deal since there isn't THAT much dakka and for 3v3 the unholy amounts of pew pew will put a very scary dent even with 90% reduction.

[Ven]

agreed. i think it lasts a bit too long for what it is.

[Superhooper01]

+max seeing orbs a lot atm and it is giving a free decap at least when used on a vp

[Caeltos]

Quite a long time ago, I drafted a re-iteration of the shimmer orb, to make it less of a niché anti-cap tool (Seriously, it's really an odd ability design by nature, and probably not an intended design by relic to be a "Hey, use this to cap!"

I had this idea, that it would simply be a glorified "Energy Shield" that would soak up ranged fire and could be placed more around the map. But I encountered some problems as, how much damage resistance would it be, and how much limitations there would be to it. And would you be able to scuttle the Shimmer Orb to replace them?

Let's say, it was a 15% damage resistance(Exclusive modifier), would that be sufficient enough? (The idea is, quantity of territorial damage resistance, which fits the theme of the Warp Spider Exarch) with a duration of 360 duration(Lolz + scuttle) and maximum of 3 Shimmer Orbs to be placed max. Units inside would still be immune to knockback, but with focus-fire in 3s/2s etc would still promote good team-work to aid with damage resistance on certain locations. In 1s, this would help off-capping squads, or at least provide a good setup for damage mitigation to potentially cover a large area.

For an ex. would be Outer Reaches or Siwal Frontier (Imagine one top, mid and a potentially mid-bottom section on Siwal), that gives you alot of ground to mitigate damage. (This effect would probably however, have to stack with the Dire Avenger Exarch aura that reduces incoming ranged damage, otherwise the effect would probably be abit sub-par if it's only 15%) but would still benefit Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers & Rangers and etc - but nevertheless, the damage resistance % modifier is probably the most troublesome without making it borderline useless, or borderline annoying to face.

Reducing the duration would cut it's niché completely if it doesn't allow to do as it's primarily functioning as it stands.

[MaxPower]

Mh, see I'm not good at balance and stuff but why would the orb be useless if it would only last like 15 seconds while still retaining all the abilities (no kb, damage resistance)?

15 Seconds are more than enough to either decap or cap a point (and yeah I'm just talking about that specific problem right now) because that is the primary use of the shimmer orb nowadays anyways.

And my god was I pissed the other day when void was like spamming that wargear on Angel Gates contested VP.

[Ven]

i think the kb immunity is fine. but its duration is just way too long, i mean it allows a fully decap and in most cases a cap aswell. how are races such as IG supposed to deal with it? i mean manticores cant even do any damage even though there is a frikking hole in the top.

the shimmer orbs concept is fine, but the 2 facts that its a 100% damage resist and that its 30 seconds, just makes it too powerful. how about make it something similar to the PCs pestilence strike but in the area you throw the grenade? if anything, the energy cost really needs an increase. its way too spammable right now.

[Sub_Zero]

"Hey, use this to cap!"

With this thing you can protect your vehicles and repair them without moving anywhere, with this thing you can deploy shields right in the combat because guardians won't fire a shot, with this thing you can counter artillery, with this thing you can counter certain ranged "spells", with this thing you can nullify enemy's ranged units and force them to leave the orb, with this thing you can protect your banshees from ranged units' fire and banshees 1 v 1 beat a lot of units. No, it is not only designed to cap points, it has plenty of uses and if it is to become a standard damage reductioner it will be really sad.

[Torpid]

"Hey, use this to cap!"

With this thing you can protect your vehicles and repair them without moving anywhere, with this thing you can deploy shields right in the combat because guardians won't fire a shot, with this thing you can counter artillery, with this thing you can counter certain ranged "spells", with this thing you can nullify enemy's ranged units and force them to leave the orb, with this thing you can protect your banshees from ranged units' fire and banshees 1 v 1 beat a lot of units. No, it is not only designed to cap points, it has plenty of uses and if it is to become a standard damage reductioner it will be really sad.

I agree. Caeltos you need to play more WSE if you think orbs are only good for capping. They are so much more. As I already said their main use in 1v1 is not for capping but for Wraithlord synergy and taking out set-up teams. It's why I rarely get anti-grav nades -> shimmer orbs are just as good vs set-up teams, sure they aren't as good for wiping stuff or vs melee, but they support my WL so much better and in general the WSE has an easy time dealing with melee as it is.

And dropping a shimmer orb on your WG just before a manticore blasts them is awesome.

Seriously though the synergy with the avatar/Wraithlord is ridiculous.

[hiveminion]

15 seconds would still allow a decap, just not a whole cap.

[Atlas]

Point of information; the shimmer orb also negates ranged damage going out of the bubble too right? So if you dropped it on a setup team, they wouldn't be able to fire out of it correct?

As an aside to that, if you place a shimmer orb between unit A and unit B, will A and B be able to damage each other at range even with the shimmer orb blocking line of sight?

[Vapor]

The ability is fine as it is now, it has a lot of unique uses besides just capping that I wouldn't want to see replaced. It is very powerful though, so up the energy cost to 50 or so and increase the cooldown a bit.

[Torpid]

Point of information; the shimmer orb also negates ranged damage going out of the bubble too right? So if you dropped it on a setup team, they wouldn't be able to fire out of it correct?

As an aside to that, if you place a shimmer orb between unit A and unit B, will A and B be able to damage each other at range even with the shimmer orb blocking line of sight?

They would not be able to fire out.

They would not be able to hurt one another as the shimmer orb would absord all the fire.

Hence, you may teleport into melee with one set-up team with your WSE to tie it up while you throw the shimmer orb on another. Your WSE single-handedly took out of play two enemy set-up teams in an instant. Meanwhile your WL/shees move forward.

Or, the space marine moves in his dreadnought to deal with your wraithlord while he has the las-cannon for support. You haywire the dread, force melee on it with the WL/shees and throw a shimmer orb between the dread and the lascannon. This protects your WL from their AV and you shees from their ranged fire while the shees/WL finish off the dread.

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

Would be a shame to see it reworked completely but I definitely think it should have its duration reduced or at the very least, its energy consumption/cooldown increased.

I think the cheekiest usage I've seen of it was of a guy trying to save his Falcon that had been snared by my Plague Marines. He threw an orb up around it and used the 3 DAs inside it to repair it so it had enough health to make an escape from the orb.

[Nurland]

I think it would still retain the walker etc synergy if it lost the kb immunity. This would also stop it from being a free caps gear.

[egewithin]

I don't think removing his 100% damage resistence is a good thing. Even it is 90%, it won't give the same taste as before. However, decreasing the ability duration time is a must. It is a good thing to prevent him from fully capping the victory point but at least give a time to make it notr.

I don't think increasing the energy cost or cooldown won't prevent him from spamming it. If he wants it, he can wait just a little bit more.

BUT ; if you try to remove it from the wargear, replace it with something which is extreamly annoying to deal with. That is the point of Warp Spider Exarch, you know...

[Tsototar]

how are races such as IG supposed to deal with it?

catachans, commissar, ogryns, inquisitor, sentinel stomp?

[saltychipmunk]

yeah cant you just counter the shimmer or by jumping, running, teleporting / dancing in there and beating the ever living crap out of him?

its not like he is that durable and banshees are stupidly susceptible to any kind of aoe knockback ability common to many melee units .

and is it really any cheesier than a unit with an invulnerability armor piece poping invulnerability while capping a contested point? i think not.


I rarely even see shimmer orb these days and when i do it is because someone completely failed to diversify their army composition and got punished for it.

[Torpid]

and is it really any cheesier than a unit with an invulnerability armor piece poping invulnerability while capping a contested point? i think not.

Cheesier is the wrong word, there's nothing really risky about it, it's a very easy to pull off mechanism, just like the invulnerability, but it far more powerful than invulnerability in this one aspect - capping points - because it lasts far longer. No invulnerability lasts anywhere near 30seconds, also invulnerability doesn't prevent knockback either, so yeah, really bad comparison.

I rarely even see shimmer orb these days and when i do it is one someone completely failed to diversify their army composition and got punished for it.

I think this is more appropriate. People in 3v3 in my experience are stupid and lazy when it comes to playing. They just mindlessly go the same builds automatically and spam P-devs. I... don't mean to be personally rude as you know Max, but you must admit you go the same build nearly always irregardless of MU or map. I use you as an example Max because you are popular and so people know of this.

Anyway, they just spam P-devs or other artillery and expect it to win then rage when the foe gets sigil/manticores/shimmer orb or the like (RA tunnels + double genes .

[MaxPower]

yeah cant you just counter the shimmer or by jumping, running, teleporting / dancing in there and beating the ever living crap out of him?

its not like he is that durable and banshees are stupidly susceptible to any kind of aoe knockback ability common to many melee units .

and is it really any cheesier than a unit with an invulnerability armor piece poping invulnerability while capping a contested point? i think not.

The most effective way of dealing with melee units is knockback of any kind as you mentioned yourself, the big problem is, that the shimmer orb negates knockback. Which means that your statement "banshees are stupidly susceptible to any kind of aoe knockback ability" is not wrong per se, but since the orb removes knockback its kinda moot to talk about the susceptiblity of banshees regarding knockback.

And yes it is cheesier compared to a hero that uses an armor that grants invulnerability because you are still able to knock them back and keep them from capping the point (mekboy with custom forcefield being the only exception)

@Torpid:

Everything is cool, I know that im using the same bo nearly every time and I tend to make fun of it myself from time to time. But the best way of denying caps is by either shooting at the capper or knocking them back while capping (you could melee them if your race has good melee units [something SM lacks until t3]) and since you cant do that its a free cap for the enemy.

[Torpid]

I still think a duration nerf is most suitable that way it still has all of its other utility outside of de-capping points but isn't so OP in the late game of 3v3 matches.

[saltychipmunk]

it negates knock back? ( man it really shows how rarely i see it) that doesn't even make sense, remove the knock back immunity

[MaxPower]

Yes it does negate kb, which is really infuriating if you try to keep someone from capping a point. Yet you can't do anything against that (if you dont have strong melee units).

But I think the kb immunity is okay if the duration of the ability would be shortened to 15 seconds (well basically what torpid said)

[Thibix Magnus]

Hello everyone,
My first post here, thank you so much for the amazing mod !

I would like to go Necron a bit with this thread, as I heard in some cast (from Indrid I believe) that the Shimmer Orb was going to be changed in next version, I have some thoughts about that and found this discussion. I only main Eldar and I'm thus biased (I don't play WSE a lot though) and quite below the average level in Elite. But I think the topic has not been fully addressed.

As far as I understand it is criticized as being a no-brainer capping tool in 3v3 but to be ok in 1v1 and 2v2. Thus it seems the solution would be to remove knock-back immunity so it would keep its functions while allowing to interrupt decaps.

1. The previous counter-arguments that have been given already (and my complement) : some players in 3v3, even the best ones, could maybe be a bit too conservative and tend to rely on Moar Dakka as the only viable play. The Orb should encourage moving in and fight (" come and take them ! "), as the Eldar can't hurt foes entering the Orb, and the fact it lasts so long plays in favour of opponents in this situation, they have time to react and charge while being protected.

2. My main concern, that AFAIK has not been mentioned. Let's assume the decap interruption should be granted and thus knock-back immunity removed. How would it work in practice, including many other, more creative uses of the Orb ? Would troops get pulled out by a first Rocket Run and destroyed by the second ? Would actually any nuke throw them out and smash them once outside ? That's I think the main reason of the immunity ! Same for manties, spotters, whirlwinds, Avatar, battle wagon, etc.

3. Shimmer Orb can actually rely on knock-back immunity for some original game-play. It can make an Eldar melee build viable with some skill, even in 3v3. A melee charge + Shimmer Orb has a small chance against the usual, easy-to-use counter-initiation (shotguns, dread fist, sentinels, ogryns, ol' reliable, interceptors teleport, chaos lord, etc). These kinds of combos and some others are never seen (thus not OP by any mean) but even if not « pro » or efficient, they are original, funny, fluffy, hard to use, not Dakka spam and, I believe, should not be discouraged … it would be sad.

4. To the point : if indeed there is a capping problem that is not an issue about lazy 3v3 artillery spam (I'm not experienced enough to judge that), would it be possible to make the change a bit more incremental ? Either by just removing the knock-back immunity only for (de)capping units, or only for the WSE (the usual suspect) ? If the code doesn't allow it, I would be in favour of a longer cool-down rather than removing the immunity, though it could have some other drawbacks. No energy cost increase as it would also hurt its synergy with other abilities.

My 2 cents, maybe I'm late and the modders (again, thanks for the job...) have already thought it out so at least models are not pushed out. Or if a lot of efforts have been put already on the new Orb, well, let's see it

(long text, sorry for possible poor English)
cheers