Misc. Balance changes feedback

[Caeltos]

Hello!

I just wanted to throw up a thread to see what people think of some of the misc. changes that might seem underwhelming to some, and as to how they might have effected the overall gameplay. Be that for good or bad.

The ones that are under evaluation, are as follows;

- Force Commander ranged dps (default bolt pistol) from 13,29 to 16,04

And -

- Apothecary ranged dps (default bolt pistol & Sanguine) from 13,29 to 16,04

Do you find the ranged damage increase to furthermore help improve your flexibility in utilizing melee/ranged stance more, specifically for melee-oriented commanders, would you be against, or interested to see other commanders getting similiar attention?

[Cheekie Monkie]

I've actually been thinking about this point recently, and can only conclude that this change actually has the reverse effect of its intended purpose ie it actually makes the FC and apo MORE charge happy than before, as opposed to promoting stance dancing.

This partly due to the fact that:
a) The limited range of the pistols. You can't effectively take cover and have a shootout against ranged units, since you're likely to be out of range anyway, as I've discovered to my disdain when I'm trying to tank 2 DAs with my apo in cover. He's just not shooting anything.

A range increase would be needed at least.

b) The excellent FOTM rate of pistols. If you had the opportunity to do decent dakka from a distance as opposed to doing decent dakka and some choppa whilst tying up a ranged unit, which option would you most likely go for? Sure, you might run the risk of over extending yourself, but in general this is a small risk to pay, more so for the FC as he's the resident tank in the SM roster. There just isn't enough incentive to stand still and shoot stuff, since the buff affects a charge so much more? In cases where you genuinely don't want to charge e.g setup teams or an opening guard gunline, point (a) kicks in - you're out of range and your only contribution to the engagement is either a BC or a few heals.

Stance dancing is a fantastic idea in concept, best exemplified by the wl's mwb. Why? Because he's got good range, does an excellent ranged attack and can't fire on the move. Not that I'm proposing we give the bolt pistol a ranged kb, just that I think that its FOTM can be reduced at the cost of increased range.

[MaxPower]

Why would I want a range increase on the bolt pistole on my FC, a bolt pistol that isn't that great to begin with?

The FC is only good at one thing and that is smashing skulls in in melee with his wide arsenal of melee weapons.
If your FC is standing in cover, shooting and not fighting mano i mano you are doing it wrong. Hence the fotm of the pistol is more desirable compared to a range increase.

[Cheekie Monkie]

The whole point of the damage increase was to promote stance dancing, not to further improve the mano a mano fighting. If I know that a shuri is just lying behind those DAs, I am going to hold back my FC whether I like it or not.

[MaxPower]

Normally you would get something to dislodge the shuri, be it the shield for your fc, scouts with nades or asms so that your FC actually gets into melee to deal some "real" damage.

[Nurland]

I don't think the standard bolt pistol needs a dps buff. Range buff or a tweak maybe.

[Torpid]

I don't really see the big need to encourage stance swapping. Why do it? It doesn't improve balance. Most people won't do it anyway, the FC/apo pistols already do enough damage as it is (or before when they are at 13, not sure if that change did happen or not haven't played in ages). It's basically putting better balance at risk for the sake of seeing different plays yet high level players always stance swap behind cover with their melee heroes as it is. It's not even for the ranged dps, that doesn't matter, it's just that they can't come closer less they get tied up in melee and do nothing, and even at range they do very little due to the hero armour modifiers + the cover modifier.

[Caeltos]

For those that haven't read the changelog, the ones I posted in the OP occured in 2.3.1 and has been in the game for quite some time. Since it hasn't been brought up as an issue yet, I'm under the assumption things are quite okay with how it panned out.

Based on some evaluations from what I've seen from very good players, they are able to stance-dance abit more flexible and have a better reward for being creative and not putting themselves in a bad spot. Previously, the motivation for being careful didn't have that much benefit, as you would most likely take too much fire, without putting some damage in-return.

That's more or less the motiviation behind the change in general. You are more rewarded for being cautious, previously as mentioned - there was little motivation behind it. An example of a commander who is an adapative stance-dancer is the Lord Commissar, who has a quite neat pistol of his own, whereas other melee commanders have somewhat less-then stellar ranged oriented weapons, who don't reap much benefits from not putting themselves in harms-way.

In Dawn of War 1, for an example. Stance-dancing with melee commanders was a pretty big thing, and actually made for more enjoyment in how you utilized the melee heroes. I believe the same principal can be applied in DoW2, and I think Relic was under the impression they could deliver something in similiar fashion. However, things have a tendency to get burned down abit more quickly in this, compared to previous installation.

[Sturnn]

Well, actually gameplay in DoW 1 was kinda different And there only range hero was Tau Commander. Others were pretty good as melee and range fighters. Also, range stance on FC for example, was the only way to put any dmg of fucking Tau Commander. To be honest, FC with plasma pistol was kinda scarry to face. Here we have many other factors to play with - like covers. Imagine well shooting FC behind cover with iron halo for example. He and TSM would deal tons of dmg to enemy even before melee would start.

Like all LoL players says - Better nerf Irelia. In Wh40k language - better buff Space Marines

[saltychipmunk]

In Dawn of War 1, for an example. Stance-dancing with melee commanders was a pretty big thing, and actually made for more enjoyment in how you utilized the melee heroes. I believe the same principal can be applied in DoW2, and I think Relic was under the impression they could deliver something in similiar fashion. However, things have a tendency to get burned down abit more quickly in this, compared to previous installation.

yeah the only good example of what you are remembering was the all commanders + gk ranged build for sm.

get fc , get the libby , get the chappy get the gk get plasma pistols and spam their abilities . but that game was alot different

for one thing the pace was slower, units could reinforce on the field and health pools were massive (easily 2 - 5 times larger in some cases)

the commanders also had the same range as their standard infantry squads. that last bit is what really makes this change meaningless. so long as you cant shoot at standard infantry in cover from cover of your own , this change will have limited used.

Doesn't the warlock have the standard range as well? I am pretty sure his knock down ranged attack would be far less useful if it had the range that bolt pistols have.

[Sturnn]

Well, other important thing in DoW1 what DoW2 lacks is morale. Becasue of it there would be reason why SM units are more expensive. ,,Courage" is not the same as morale in DoW1.

[Myrdal]

Stance dancing is a fantastic idea in concept, best exemplified by the wl's mwb. Why? Because he's got good range, does an excellent ranged attack and can't fire on the move. Not that I'm proposing we give the bolt pistol a ranged kb, just that I think that its FOTM can be reduced at the cost of increased range.

Could give sidearms an exclusive range boost when commanders are standing still in ranged stance.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Doesn't the warlock have the standard range as well? I am pretty sure his knock down ranged attack would be far less useful if it had the range that bolt pistols have.

That's the great thing about the mwb - it has both reach...and flexibility.

Honestly, sometimes I just want to beg for the apo to come with a default bolter as opposed to the chainsword since staying the hell back is such a crucial part of his T1 gameplay (and in such cases his bolt pistol won't likely be in range) but I'm not sure what can of worms would be opened if the change was made.

[Crewfinity]

dont the bolt pistols on tactical marine sergeants have standard range? it seems like all commanders should have the same standard range on their sidearms as well.

[Torpid]

dont the bolt pistols on tactical marine sergeants have standard range? it seems like all commanders should have the same standard range on their sidearms as well.

Why??? That would be a gigantic buff to melee commanders.

[saltychipmunk]

Well i think what you are thinking is "my god normal ranged on melee commanders that is going to suck for fragile kiting units"

and i think that is why increasing range might not be on the table. that being said show of hands. who would be willing to increase the range of melee commander side arms for a meaningful penalty for fotm?

[Torpid]

Well i think what you are thinking is "my god normal ranged on melee commanders that is going to suck for fragile kiting units"

and i think that is why increasing range might not be on the table. that being said show of hands. who would be willing to increase the range of melee commander side arms for a meaningful penalty for fotm?

I think it would be much simpler to do what Hakon said and just make it so that the range increases when the hero is stood still in ranged stance and decreases when they are FOTM.

Would be a little less RNG and so less frustrating and I don't think it would cause any huge glaring balance issues and so the bonus to fun from the increased diversity of skill and the extra skill cap on the melee heroes would be a good thing. Plus, I think melee heroes do suffer a fair bit in 1v1 and you know probably even more so in team games.

[Crewfinity]

^yeah after thinking a bit more I actually like that idea a lot better.

[saltychipmunk]

well if it cane be done then yay, if not always good to have fall backs

[karnakkardak]

Hey guys why we don't think about plasma pistol? Its dmg only 7.82! Simillar gm plasma gun! I think it should be berf. They r too weak.

[egewithin]

Hey guys why we don't think about plasma pistol? Its dmg only 7.82! Simillar gm plasma gun! I think it should be berf. They r too weak.

He has a point. At least we should increase the accuarcy (I write it wrong to be annoying).

[Nurland]

Plasma pistol already does the same damage (actually a bit more) to HI as the standard bolt pistol.

[Nurland]

The range increase sounds like a nice idea to try (apo sanguine pistol doesn't need the range increase though)

[Cheekie Monkie]

The range increase sounds like a nice idea to try (apo sanguine pistol doesn't need the range increase though)

Spoilsport!

Can I at least shoot barrels to heal myself?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Using the same reason, Why not increase the melee damge of some heroes? I see no reason to increase the damage of the sidearms of melee commanders which IMHO are something to punish the squads which runs from the melee commander more than tools to do consistent damage and keep ranged commanders with pathetic melee damage, like the PC.