Striking Scorpions... Donations

[Beekeeper]

My friend, a long-time Eldar player in tabletop 40k, is just getting into Elite Mod and is shocked to find there are STILL no Striking Scorpions. Equipped with 3+ armor (equivalent to Space Marines), the ability to infiltrate and potentially emp grenades, striking scorpions fill a completely different roll than fast, fragile, Howling Banshees. There is room in Elite Mod for two more tier 1.5 Eldar units and I think Striking Scorpions would be the perfect choice for one of those slots.

So, my question is, what would it take to get Striking Scorpions into Elite Mod? My friend would probably be willing to make a pretty decent donation to the team if it made the addition possible. Also, I am a (Maya trained) 3d artist and animator, so maybe I could even help in some way.

I am not an Eldar player, and I'm not looking at a codex right now, but based on my impression of Striking Scorpions from table top, I would balance them all-around similar to Space Marine assault marines (heavy armor, chain swords, pistols), only instead of a jump, they would have stationary infiltration like genestealers. Give them two upgrades; an EMP grenade like the warp spiders and an Exarch with a power weapon (who gives them mobile infiltration?).

I think there are some people who will complain, "hey, you can't give Eldar a unit with heavy armor in tier 1, because they're SUPPOSED to be squishy, it's their intended weakness." Admittedly, I'm no pro, but I've played a few games and have watched almost all of Indrid's YouTube casts, so I have at least some basis to say that I do not think Striking Scorpions would badly unbalance tier 1, and certainly they could be balanced by appropriate rec/power costs. So what think you all? Is it possible to get these guys into the game in the near future?

[Swift]

Surprisingly I am not going to complain about heavy armour at all... just the fact that this is a really poor idea overall. It seems like you are asking for this just because you want a friend's models in the game and not because you see a real space in the Eldar roster for them to go in, and thus have made up some reasons as to why you think they fit. I'm going to come across as horrid and scathing, but I need to tell you why this is not useful.

First off, how will you balance their damage? Youw ant them to act like ASM, yet they can't jump, so is it another melee squad that exists merely to tie things up? Banshees already to incredible damage out of the gate and are great assault deterants and rape most things in melee combat. Therefore banshees already do the job of a melee deterant and close combat squad.

Second, Rangers can already infiltrate and also provide an AOE infiltration ability for the rest of your army, meaning that providing a toggled infiltrator that acts in melee would be ridiculous for any squad when Eldar already have so much infiltration throughout the game. This is on the level of LA inflitration silliness, cloaking yourself and then rushing into melee combat. it's fine for Chaos because it's a Sorceror only ability and works through AOE worship, not a toggled ability.

Thirdly the haywire grenade would add too much utility, they already have it on Warp Spiders which can teleport handily and pop it like that, but if you stick it on an infiltrator and combine with Fire Dragons or a brightlance, it's going to be ridiculous.

I don't care about the heavy armour and being able to stay on the field in tier 1, a good Eldar player is not going to have hardiness top on the list of their priorities considering ELdar damage. I also don't think it's that big of a buff, Wraithguard have it, Dark Reapers have it.

For those reasons I am not in favour of this. Also can you clarify by what you mean by donations? It sounds like a case of "If you provide money you can have my models" or is it "I can donate these models to you." It is confusing is all :/

Though I'm sure the models look lovely

[Beekeeper]

Doing a search for "striking scorpions" on the forums, I find a chorus of people saying they are not necessary and serve the same purpose as banshees. I just want to nip that argument in the bud, by saying that banshees' fragility makes them a terrible line-breaker unit that can lose over half their hitpoints closing the distance to a squad of shoota boys and get demolished by one exploding cultist. Striking Scorpions would be a tier 1.5 melee unit that makes a better line-breaker than banshees, while being worse at chasing and less effective against heavy armor. The ability to ambush from infiltration would also set them apart from banshees.

There is another line of argument against banshees I see, which I also don't agree with. Namely, that Eldar should not be allowed to have a heavy armored unit. In my opinion, this argument is made out of ignorance, by people who have not played tabletop 40k, where these heavy armored Eldar are a staple unit. The fact is, Eldar HAVE a basic linebreaker unit, they just don't have it in dow2. To those who say returning this basic unit to the army would break game balance, I contest that all they need is a well-balanced unit-cost, so that the benefit of the unit is balanced by the delay of tier 2.

In other words, I contest that they would add something missing to the army while not necessarily "breaking" game balance.

[Swift]

They don't add anything though. If your Banshees are down to half HP charging at Shootas, you're playing the game wrong, and you need to re-evaluate you stratergy. If Heretics doomblast is causing you problems, shoot the Heretics first. It sounds more like your stratergy that is in need of buffs and abilities to linebreak than adding a whole new unit to compensate for these weaknesses. Banshees are a linebreaker, they don't have heavy armour.

[Torpid]

Well, I wouldn't call banshees a linebreaker by any means, however they're not meant to be because as you say Swift they are opportunists. Eldar don't need nor should they have a line-breaker. They get other things to compensate such as their speed, their high damage, their grenades and so on.

[Beekeeper]

Swiftsabre thank you for the thoughtful (and scathing) reply!

First off, how will you balance their damage?

More armor, no power weapon = better against cultists, better against hormagaunts, better against light infantry in general.

Youw ant them to act like ASM, yet they can't jump, so is it another melee squad that exists merely to tie things up?

Yes. Better at tying stuff up, worse at chasing.

Banshees already to incredible damage out of the gate and are great assault deterants and rape most things in melee combat. Therefore banshees already do the job of a melee deterant and close combat squad.

True. This is about providing Eldar players with a CHOICE. A meaningful choice that EXISTS IN TABLETOP.

Second, Rangers can already infiltrate and also provide an AOE infiltration ability for the rest of your army, meaning that providing a toggled infiltrator that acts in melee would be ridiculous for any squad when Eldar already have so much infiltration throughout the game. This is on the level of LA inflitration silliness, cloaking yourself and then rushing into melee combat. it's fine for Chaos because it's a Sorceror only ability and works through AOE worship, not a toggled ability.

Adding another infiltrating Eldar unit would correctly establish them as the kings of infiltration. This would be appropriate, not silly. They have the best technology of any dow2 race, after all. You could have them infiltrate like genestealers, where it only works while they're standing still. Then there would not be any cloaking before charging into combat shenanigans.

Thirdly the haywire grenade would add too much utility, they already have it on Warp Spiders which can teleport handily and pop it like that, but if you stick it on an infiltrator and combine with Fire Dragons or a brightlance, it's going to be ridiculous.

DoW2 is not a game where you get every unit. A tier 2 haywire grenade upgrade on a tier 1.5 Striking Scorpion squad would match the fluff and lend the squad some tier 2 usefulness. I think it would be really thrilling to see a player pull off an infiltrated EMP grenade into brightlance/firedragon combo. And it doesn't seem more broken than the warp spider teleport into EMP grenade combo. You could make it harder to pull off by giving the infiltration an energy cost.

I don't care about the heavy armour and being able to stay on the field in tier 1, a good Eldar player is not going to have hardiness top on the list of their priorities considering ELdar damage. I also don't think it's that big of a buff, Wraithguard have it, Dark Reapers have it.

OK, but I'm trying to say that there's another aspect to the Eldar army that exists in tabletop but is conspicuously missing from DoW2 making the Eldar artificially even more squishy than they are supposed to be.

For those reasons I am not in favour of this. Also can you clarify by what you mean by donations? It sounds like a case of "If you provide money you can have my models" or is it "I can donate these models to you." It is confusing is all :/

I was thinking that my buddy and I might be able to scrape together $50 or $100 to donate to development team. Seeing Striking Scorpions in the game would mean A LOT to him, and I feel bad asking people I don't know to do a lot of work for nothing. I was also offering to help with some of the modeling/animation work, but maybe that is not necessary as it sounds like there are already finished models for Striking Scorpions: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=397&p=27123&hilit=striking+scorpions#p27123

I agree with the people who are saying that Eldar work just fine without Striking Scorpions, and that a good player doesn't NEED THEM. However, adding them to the game would further bring DoW2 closer to tabletop, which has always seemed to be one of the primary goals of Elite Mod.
Thank you Swiftsabre for laying out the arguments against adding Striking Scorpions, I hope you can understand my position better with some more clearly articulated arguments?

[Beekeeper]

Well, I wouldn't call banshees a linebreaker by any means, however they're not meant to be because as you say Swift they are opportunists. Eldar don't need nor should they have a line-breaker. They get other things to compensate such as their speed, their high damage, their grenades and so on.

I am talking about adding one of the most classic and iconic Eldar units from tabletop and fluff to DoW2. I think it is a unit that would add fun and complexity and OPTIONS to Eldar play. Further, I believe it is a unit that would still need good micro to be effective.

[Beekeeper]

They don't add anything though. If your Banshees are down to half HP charging at Shootas, you're playing the game wrong, and you need to re-evaluate you stratergy. If Heretics doomblast is causing you problems, shoot the Heretics first. It sounds more like your stratergy that is in need of buffs and abilities to linebreak than adding a whole new unit to compensate for these weaknesses. Banshees are a linebreaker, they don't have heavy armour.

You seem to think I'm bad at playing Eldar and wishing they had a new unit to compensate for their weaknesses because I don't know how to play them properly. That is not what this is about.

This is about adding a much loved unit from the fluff, that would add some new OPTIONS to Eldar play, which is currently a bit one-dimensional (kite, turn and shoot, kite, turn and shoot, throw grenade, chase with banshees... repeat). Eldar work GREAT just the way they are. I do not want to add Striking Scorpions to make them overpowered or to totally change their playstyle. I want to add them to make the game more fun and fluffy. I hope I've made it clear that they could fill a slightly different role than banshees.

[Atlas]

I saw the word tabletop too many times. This is a mod designed around balancing the game that's in there, not making it truer to TT and lore. The question shouldn't be about how we can make the game more accurate to 40k, but rather how can we add something that we can balance into the game. Lore is a plus, but shouldn't be the major reason we do anything.

As for the actual proposal itself, which as I read it is a heavy armor T1.5 squad with potential upgrades in infiltration and haywire grenades, it's..... ok? It definitely needs to be reworked a bit imo.

Just spit-balling something out but how about something like:

Models: 4 (+1 exarch) (less models the better for infiltration imo as too many models sometimes spread out too far)
HP: 200 HI armor per model (more than regular banshees plus HI makes them more resistant to fire)
250 HI armor for exarch
Small size
100 xp on kill
10 red on kill
speed 5 rotation 800 sight 40 (-.5 speed from banshees)
melee skill 70
regular chainsword: 30 melee damage per hit, 23.07 dps per model
regular pistol: 6 piercing damage per hit, 2.47 dps per model
exarch: 55 power melee damage per hit, 42.30 dps (boosted to help make the exarch useful when you don't want infil)
exarch pistol: 6 piercing damage per hit, 2.47 dps

Abilities:
melee resist aura
scorpion exarch aura: scorpion squads led by an exarch passively infiltrate 25% faster (so 3 secs from 4 iirc)
Passive idle infiltration by default(same as catas with serg)
T2 infiltration toggle ability with exarch (same as scouts)
NO fleet of foot

Upgrades:
Scorpion Exarch
100/25 , 15 secs
NOT die last
stats already listed

^ That would be the base I would discuss anything else from. No grenades or anything else just a plain stealth squad. How UP or OP it is is up for debate, but I think we should first ask if we really want something like this in Eldar T1.

[Swift]

Indeed, tabletop and fluff have no deciding factor when it comes to units in ELite. The goal of Elite is not to bring the tabletop into DoW II, if that happens then it happens by merry coincidence, but the goal of the mod is to balance it. Lore and tabletop have no bearing over what decisions are made, we could for all anyone knows get a new unit that is not often seen on the tabletop. Without the grenade they sound better, but I still don't think they are actually necessary.

Also if you think I am not articulate enough for you, then that's fine, it shows you want to take this into argument territory. I am not arguing about anything on an online forum, especially not one about adding new units to DoW II. If you take my comment on your play to heart, that's fine, just remember I'm a faceless internet person you'll never meet. The reason I am so critical or come across as critical of your play is because you sound like you aren't using banshees properly at all and I've never seen you in game before.

[Torpid]

Well, I wouldn't call banshees a linebreaker by any means, however they're not meant to be because as you say Swift they are opportunists. Eldar don't need nor should they have a line-breaker. They get other things to compensate such as their speed, their high damage, their grenades and so on.

I am talking about adding one of the most classic and iconic Eldar units from tabletop and fluff to DoW2. I think it is a unit that would add fun and complexity and OPTIONS to Eldar play. Further, I believe it is a unit that would still need good micro to be effective.

Fun is all well and good except that every addition to the game is another variable to consider with regards to balance. New units entirely change compositions and have to be very carefully balanced to not be UP or OP in any scenario or to make any hero MU out of the 19 different possibilities too heavily favoured one way or the other. If eldar don't really need a new unit in order to be balanced and fun to play it probably isn't worth the risk and time involved with implementing one.

[egewithin]

The problem is my friend : we have Banshees. If SC will be weaker than Bans, they are useless. If they are stronger, Banshees are useless.

Eldar army depends on purpose. They have a squad just for melee, a squad just for sniping, a squad just for melting down armor. If you wanted these in Chaos, idea could be accettible. But eldar is just not flexible.

BUT : having real computer nerds is important for us to grow. You are welcome.

[Caeltos]

Funny someone would bring Striking Scorpions up at one point. Because, honestly - striking scorpions were actually one of the first unit that I started a draft on, and the concept was pretty much - a more potent prolonged-sustain melee fighter, with the infiltration potential. Thinking it more of an Autarch-lite(Technically, you can be a sustained fighter, and has a jump, whereas Scorpions would have an infiltration as an off-trade).

But during the time I made them, they sort of just fell off the sideways, and there wasn't even a model avaiable at the time. And as time passed, priorities changed and things turned out a tad different. There is a Striking Scorpion model out now however, and I believe ranger with shuri/sword animation is quite suitable for the Striking Scorpion squad (cutting corners here for the sake of not putting more work into things that might not get added in).

[VanDietsland]

http://dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.p ... 6&start=10

old pictures and discussion about striking scorpions

[Swift]

Howver, I'm sure Caeltos wouldn't back down on a donation

[Beekeeper]

The way my friend put it is, Striking Scorpions are the Eldar's anti-horde unit. He also confirmed that he will definitely donate when they're in game

[Jes]

Considering that in TT, shees are anti-MEQs while scorps are anti-GEQ, that much is painfully obvious.
And I'm sorry for being the cynic here, but all I see is a guy waving an imaginary carrot on a stick around.

Your guy wants scorps in Elite? Donate first, not later!