Elite VS Retail / How to make retail people to play Elite?

[Impregnable]

Guys usually I try my best to convert some people from retail to play elite. So what I try is to post messages on the general chat room which is shared by both elite and retail servers whenever I can.

"Install elite mode at http://www.dawnofwar.info"

The response after reading that message can be divided into four categories.

1. What is elite mode? / Doesn't even know it exists
It is very rare to hear this kind of response but it usually comes from those who stopped playing at some point in the past. I met some people who stopped playing after Chaos Rising or after relic stopped patching retribution etc. Well, these people are easy to convince to play elite mode since all I have to do is tell them all thew new features and they always want a try at least because they didn't know that elite mode existed at all.

2. What does elite mode do? / Heard of it but doesn't know details
This response is most common. These people have at least heard of it from their friends or seen it in one of the youtube castings by Indrid and others. The solution is the same as with category 1. Telling them about new features is mostly enough to convince them to play elite since they are asking those questions because they have some interest in playing elite and want to know more.

3. Elite mode has problems / Mild Disinterest
I hear of this often enough. Mostly comes from players who got disappointed by something in elite. They either got disappointed in past version of elite in which some balances were still off or just don't like certain factions calling them op. Former is easier to convince by telling them those problems were solved but later is hopeless. In case of later kind of people, they are the type that won't even try to discuss balance on the forums and just stop playing in any game because they can't win by easy spamming with their chosen faction. Basically they are gonna shut their mouth regarding balance as long as the faction they like is op. So I try my best on convincing former type of people by telling them what they think is the problem is either already solved or can be discussed on the forums.

4. Fuck You Elite! Retail is way better / Haters
I cannot believe how some people still think retail is better balance wise compared to elite mode but truth be told, I have met those people. They are quite detrimental to other retail players since they go active on dissuading people from playing elite. These guys are worse than those op lovers mentioned in category 3 since they actively oppose elite mode based on personal prejudices.

Conclusion
1. I think we need to make an article about how elite mode is better balance wise compared to the retail. They are pretty obvious but it will be better if they are organized into a document. Haters are gonna hate anyways however that doesn't mean we who play elite mode should not be prepared to respond to such haters with clear logic.

2. Elite mode require some form of advertisement in my opinion among dow 2 related communities. Whenever I see number of people online at general chat room in the lobby, half of that number is playing on retail not on elite. I think this is one of the reasons why it is sometimes hard to find players for elite rooms. Elite mode is underrepresented in my view among people who still play retail so I think we should find some way to advertise elite mode to them.

[Torpid]

Hahaha, I love it.

I would make a well-structured article regarding how, fairly objectively, the balance of elite is better than retail however given that this mod is after all Caeltos' vision and that everything that has been done thus far is to some end goal that Caeltos has in mind I don't know if I'de do it the proper justice.

I play retail fairly often myself (well, when I play DOW that is, I can't play much these days) and I always try to persuade people to join the elite community. Newbie or pro, although I tend to get more "pros" since I play ranked 1v1 and chat to the better players. Ranked 1v1 got butt-fucked by Relic's last update though which made it so skill doesn't play a role any longer in determining who you face... w/e

There are quite a few things that are attractive about elite though other than its objectively better balance:
1) Streamer and youtuber coverage.
2) New units (outside of balance).
3) New custom colour schemes and models.
4) New voice lines.
5) Tournament/event coverage.
6) Higher average skill level at practically all parts of the "skill spectrum" (and especially at the very highest).

The two main downsides are:
1) No ranked MM system.
2) No last stand.

Of course both of those can still be done on retail though with elite installed and getting back onto retail is not exactly hard...

[Jes]

It of course doesn't help there's still the lingering notion out there that mods are in some way or form 'cheats' and absolutely refuse to even consider playing them.

Would you believe that I've time and time again argued (for days) with CS fans that the game they've played for years started out as a mod?

[Swift]

So, you're proposing what? Elite mod propaganda?

[Jes]

There really isn't anything you can do with people like those.
They will revel in their cognitive dissonance, and nothing shy of their personal gods will change their opinion.

[Cheekie Monkie]

To me, the obviously solution would be to contact Relic, persuade/force them to make Caeltos an official developer and make ELITE the only option to play.

[DandyFrontline]

People who love DoW2 will come to elite after some time. I was the one who you call "haters" but at some moment i had a lot of free time and managed to try elite, after 1 game in elite i didnt play a single game in retail.

Telling ppl about elite in general chat is enough i think so they will know it's exist. Other people will know about it from Cast's.

[Swift]

To me, the obviously solution would be to contact Relic, persuade/force them to make Caeltos an official developer and make ELITE the only option to play.

I disagree, I think this would harm the mod since if Caeltos works for relic on Elite he is then subject to the whims of Relic/Sega, so whilst it makes sense in theory it could backfire in practise. It will become a "Relic balance mod"

[Cheekie Monkie]

To me, the obviously solution would be to contact Relic, persuade/force them to make Caeltos an official developer and make ELITE the only option to play.

I disagree, I think this would harm the mod since if Caeltos works for relic on Elite he is then subject to the whims of Relic/Sega, so whilst it makes sense in theory it could backfire in practise. It will become a "Relic balance mod"

1) Make Caeltos the CEO of Relic and Sega
2) Problem Solved
3) Stop ruining my perfectly timed jokes dammit

[Torpid]

1) Make Caeltos the CEO of Relic and Sega

This, is quite clearly what the community should be trying to achieve.

[Atlas]

1) Make Caeltos the CEO of Relic and Sega

This, is quite clearly what the community should be trying to achieve.

Praise be Lord Caeltos, our undying Lord! Apply the sacred oils in reverence!

Anyway, as it's been said earlier there's not a whole lot else we can do besides more of what we already do. Youtube/Streamer support is a big deal imo. I only came to Elite because of Indrid/Maestro Casts and while saying "go to Elite mod" is a thing, having a link of a good game ready to watch really helps.

[[EL] The Emperor]

FOREWORD:

So before I say anything I just want to state that I love Elite Mod, but there are some things that it lacks when compared to Retail. That being said I believe Elite Mod and Retail are equals but for DIFFERENT REASONS!! Just going to reiterate it again before anyone gets angry with me I love BOTH the Elite Modification, and Retail Community equally. If you doubt my love for Elite Mod in anyway however I just ask you to take one look at my tags, and the steam clan I created around the Elite Mod. The reason I am posting this is so the Elite Modification Community can gain a better insight as to what it is up against:

RETAIL VERSION:

Here is a list of what Retail has over the Elite Mod:

1. Ease of access:

- Its easy to install, and theirs not much work to be done in regards to installation.
- You don't have to do the updating yourself, or keep your eyes open for new patches.
- It works better with casuals (large majority of the Dawn of War Community), and it fits into their schedules.
- Its not ENGINEERED for one aspect of the game (unlike Elite Mod which caters in my opinion to 1v1 PvP)
- There is WAY more players who play Retail, in comparison to Elite Mod. If you want to act as though they are countries the United States is Elite Mod, and China is Retail (remember quantity can be quality).

2. Integration:

- Lets get this straight and I will not throw names at people, but Elite Mod has earned a reputation for being not "exactly" friendly to noobs (those beginner tournaments can only go so far for INFORMED noobs). Retail has its trolls but they do not make up a majority of the community allowing for Retail players to have a more enjoyable and less stressful session (none of the people who have responded in this thread I consider trolls).
- Its the first thing new players have access to when they buy the game, so of course they will become attached to it.
- Retailers get pissed whenever they hear that all the "professionals" play Elite Mod. That isn't exactly endearing to old generation professionals, or newbies who get trolled whenever they flirt with Elite Mod. In reality their are equal numbers of good players on both sides of the community, but advocates for Elite Mod sometimes polarize it even if their intentions are good.



3. Replayability:

- Retail has a working Campaign, Last Stand Mode, and it has Ranked
- RANKED ever since the recent series of patches made by the ONLY poor sucker Relic has working on Retribution has been getting popular again, regardless of how many of you people deny, deny, and deny that its true (I happen to play it a lot).
- Not engineered for 1v1 specific players (Elite Mod has been improving on this stigma so I could be wrong).
- Its stable in the sense you always know what your going to get in a engagement instead of the constant changes in Elite (which are GREAT but people need solid ground sometimes!!).

4. Company Owned:

- Many people have a problem with mods it is a universal problem for all games, and communities.
- SEGA has been taking a renewed interest in Dawn of War 2 Retribution, leading to a euphoria where people are sticking with it out of new found loyalty for the corporate giant (without SEGA anyways our whole community would collapse in the long run anyways so be grateful).
- Not everyone is happy with one guys rendition on how the game "should" work (the whole Lord Caetlos statement made by Atlas about sums it up, I have no problem with Caetlos its just a generalized view).
- Its getting "patches", now how effective they are? I remain neutral on this topic so I will let Ace of Swords rant about it for the next century all he wants.

5. Old vs. New "Professionals":

- Sorry but some old guard players just hate the idea of converting, they don't want to have to learn a whole new way to play (took me forever to learn how to play Elite Mod for instance).

ELITE MODIFICATION VERSION:

This is a list of what Elite Mod has over Retail:

1. Creativity:

- Elite Modification has so much more going for it in this department new factions, units, weapons, etc.
- You guys for the most part are happy to engage in chats, and debates with each other which leads to a constructive environment this in turn leads to PROGRESS!!
-The almighty "patch" you guys have had so many patches I have lost count nor would I bother to find out, but this brings me joy because unlike other mod developers the Elite Community has dedicated developers who give a damn. I am always entertained, and though not always happy about the "patches" I will keep my mouth shut out of respect.

2. Tournaments:

- This goes miles for the Elite Modifications Public Relation status, plus it even fools some people into believing this is the "Retail Version".
- The Beginner Tournaments, and match-ups do endear noobs I will not deny that but it doesn't help with the whole casual majority. But in its defense it also attributes to the charm of wanting to "accomplish" something which makes for entertaining spectacle as players want to show their mettle.

3. Strong Community:

- Hundreds of hours of data that shows off the Elite Mod, and its benefits.
- Its quite exciting to, and in some ways is reminiscent of the EA Sports Casts/Streams.
- Dedicated core of gamers who are willing to promote this game, and want to see it grow!!
- The Elite Mod Community is much more engaged, and solid then what Retail has (in my own small opinion its also more intellectual).
- Dedicated team of developers who are very easy to reach, and quite open to hearing suggestions from players. This creates a loyal and stable relationship that Retail does not have with its players (Retail pisses me off with how inefficient, and slow its processes are).

FINAL NOTE:

Though I have less examples for the Elite Mod that is only because it beats Retail on the core issues of balance, entertainment value, and a strong loyal community. It would be a waste of time for me to go into it any further, but my solution for the situation prevented in this thread is continue to do what we have been doing this far. I just pray we will eventually get a Dawn of War 3 so we can leave this nonsense behind.

[Swift]

I'm afraid I have to challenge certain aspects of what you say, it's just standard Elite mod patriot stuff :/

- Its easy to install, and theirs not much work to be done in regards to installation.

Elite is difficult? I do recall Elite consists of downloading the mod and then clicking install. If you hear things about "I installed but the icon isn't there/doesn't launch etc. it's because thsoe people only installed the patches not full mod because they don't read the instructions. It's irritating is all, but Elite mod is not hard to install, maybe in this internet age of procrastination it is, but it's a couple of clicks.

- You don't have to do the updating yourself, or keep your eyes open for new patches.

Yeah, it's a definite bonus, if you have a hundred games in your library and then you leave Elite for a bit and come back to see "Oh wait Elite has been updated I as playing X games so I didn't realise." Though remember that the patches are announced, though I seem to remember sometimes announcements can bug for people in game so you don't see them, but it isn't like it's secret.

- It works better with casuals (large majority of the Dawn of War Community), and it fits into their schedules.

Yes. If you only want to play it as something after work/in free time but have other things you prefer, why bother installing a mod that changes it? I understand this point.

- Its not ENGINEERED for one aspect of the game (unlike Elite Mod which caters in my opinion to 1v1 PvP)

Eltie was balanced around 1v1, but considering the number of games you can get in 3v3 compared to 1v1, I don't think this is a downside anymore because it's obvious that Elite is very applicable in all game modes even if it was intended for 1v1.

- There is WAY more players who play Retail, in comparison to Elite Mod. If you want to act as though they are countries the United States is Elite Mod, and China is Retail (remember quantity can be quality).

It's true, and there are various reasons as to why, some people try it and don't like ELite, some people have no idea it exists or only seen faint wisps of it, lots of people are new and have no idea, then you get the stuck up idiots who go around bad mouthing Elite mod as some incarnation of Slaanesh. It's a catch 22 situation, there aren't as many on ELite, so will going there not be worth it? But if I don't go there then there won't be enough people there.

- Lets get this straight and I will not throw names at people, but Elite Mod has earned a reputation for being not "exactly" friendly to noobs (those beginner tournaments can only go so far for INFORMED noobs). Retail has its trolls but they do not make up a majority of the community allowing for Retail players to have a more enjoyable and less stressful session (none of the people who have responded in this thread I consider trolls).

Lots of players on Elite can be very ignorant of noobs, this is a problem a lot of people have reported, and sadly it isn't anything I can do except say "Stop sitting around like sacks of potatoes and host your own games!"

- Its the first thing new players have access to when they buy the game, so of course they will become attached to it.

Can't argue with that

- Retailers get pissed whenever they hear that all the "professionals" play Elite Mod. That isn't exactly endearing to old generation professionals, or newbies who get trolled whenever they flirt with Elite Mod. In reality their are equal numbers of good players on both sides of the community, but advocates for Elite Mod sometimes polarize it even if their intentions are good.

Yeah... but it's true. Even if Spirit or Etdjuh return to play for a few days the majority of the top tier players play ELite mod as their preferred way of playing the game (Torpid, Riku, Noisy, etc.) and some of the old ones from ages past even return to Elite for tournaments (HoLyHammer). I appreciate that it's annoying to hear that "all" of the pros play ELite, it's fairly snobbish, but it should also be an indicator that somethign must be drawing them there, so maybe it's an indicator to try the mod? Maybe? I do know what you mean though.

- Retail has a working Campaign, Last Stand Mode, and it has Ranked

Yes, this is true.

- RANKED ever since the recent series of patches made by the ONLY poor sucker Relic has working on Retribution has been getting popular again, regardless of how many of you people deny, deny, and deny that its true (I happen to play it a lot).

Yes I'm sure it has been since everyone will ahve seen the update, regardless of what the update did or didn't do.

- Not engineered for 1v1 specific players (Elite Mod has been improving on this stigma so I could be wrong).

Covered this earlier, Elite has about a million more 3v3 games per 1v1 game, so whilst it may be intended as a 1v1 mod 3v3 is fully functional and more popular.

- Its stable in the sense you always know what your going to get in a engagement instead of the constant changes in Elite (which are GREAT but people need solid ground sometimes!!).

It's also stale (and I'm sure people would argue retail is not stable). You know what you are going to get because the game hasn't been touched balance wise for just more than three years. I don't get what you mean by solid ground, it implies that ELite adds new models and drastically changes standard mechanics every patch, most patches are indeed to nerf/buff something that was not in the game at first, so don't change it as much as you imagine. It requires plenty of adjustment but you believe that a stale experience is better than a varied and interesting experiance?

Also have you ever played CoH 2?

- Many people have a problem with mods it is a universal problem for all games, and communities.
- SEGA has been taking a renewed interest in Dawn of War 2 Retribution, leading to a euphoria where people are sticking with it out of new found loyalty for the corporate giant (without SEGA anyways our whole community would collapse in the long run anyways so be grateful).

But we've all seen what Relic can do to games when they patch them, so whilst in theory it's good the oens who are looking after it aren't in a position to look after it well.

- Not everyone is happy with one guys rendition on how the game "should" work (the whole Lord Caetlos statement made by Atlas about sums it up, I have no problem with Caetlos its just a generalized view).

That's understandable, but then it's one person's balance mod and you complain about the balance you don't have to play it, just remember it's the only mod liek ti out there.

- Its getting "patches", now how effective they are? I remain neutral on this topic so I will let Ace of Swords rant about it for the next century all he wants.

Well yes this is questionable, the game is getting patched but broken more and more.

- Sorry but some old guard players just hate the idea of converting, they don't want to have to learn a whole new way to play (took me forever to learn how to play Elite Mod for instance).

This always eludes me, you have to relearn it obviously but you get so much that's new... this is where retail players get the reputation for being abusive tactics wise and detrimental to the game because they are more interested in staying on an old and stale game because they can continue to utilise these broken strategies.

[appiah4]

This mod needs a better web page. There is really not enough ACCESSIBLE information about the Elite mod. The Codex is nice and all if you want to sit down and check dps and charge distance etc. but it really tells nothing to Average Joe.

It needs justification of its existence, and I'd say a three part, brief but informative document would be very welcome.

1. Why there is a need for Elite Mod: Brief outline of what is wrong with the game's state in retail, briefly explaining gameplay bugs and balance issues, and faction issues.
2. What does Elite Mod do, and why: Brief outline of changes to gameplay, why they were done, followed by brief explanation of additions/changes to factions, and the reasons for them
3. How do you get it: Links to installation files, and brief installation instructions

Would go a LONG way to selling the thing, and a link to the page could be given to anyone who may be interested instead of trying to explain it to everyone and every forum individually.

I would do the document, but I don't think I have a grasp of the changes that would be required, so if anyone from the Dev team has time for it, it would go a long way.

[Cheekie Monkie]

This mod needs a better web page. There is really not enough ACCESSIBLE information about the Elite mod. The Codex is nice and all if you want to sit down and check dps and charge distance etc. but it really tells nothing to Average Joe.

It needs justification of its existence, and I'd say a three part, brief but informative document would be very welcome.

1. Why there is a need for Elite Mod: Brief outline of what is wrong with the game's state in retail, briefly explaining gameplay bugs and balance issues, and faction issues.
2. What does Elite Mod do, and why: Brief outline of changes to gameplay, why they were done, followed by brief explanation of additions/changes to factions, and the reasons for them
3. How do you get it: Links to installation files, and brief installation instructions

Would go a LONG way to selling the thing, and a link to the page could be given to anyone who may be interested instead of trying to explain it to everyone and every forum individually.

I would do the document, but I don't think I have a grasp of the changes that would be required, so if anyone from the Dev team has time for it, it would go a long way.

Agreed, a little more official informative advertising would go a long way.

When a newbie first logs on to dawnofwar.info, it needs to have all of this info on hand and accessible to get people dragged in and excited about the mod.

[Swift]

Problem though, guys, is that are you the ones updating the front page? No, and neither am I, to my knowledge that's down to Lulgrim, Eerie (maybe Indrid/Nurland?) and maybe others. They're all a bit stretched for time as it is so unfortunately the msot important things get updated and leave the rest behind.

Whilst I'd love to see the fornt page updated more frequently, we might need people with more time on their hands to do it.

[sterling]

Perhaps a Moddb page? I know it takes some effort to set up and duplicates a lot of what is on the site but I would imagine it would help to spread the word around and advertise the mod some more.

Some pretty pictures and updates might convince a few people to try it out or even re-install DoW to relive the good old days with some added features.

[Batpimp]

@op

I think what you are doing is great and I try the same thing from time to time. It makes it easier for me cause my handle is a twitch address and Immediately get people watching my channel if they are bored. usually they ask me or the other viewers stuff and almost everyone is friendly and helpful. its great.

As to your efforts, I think you should concentrate one person at a time. As in business settings, I say you try to sell people on its benefits not its features.


Some people will be convinced by facts, figures and data. Most everyone will be convinced if you can display the benefit to them. Keep on trying brotha i know i do.

I think the best idea is idea so far is from sterling. A MOD DB page. That requires someone to handle it though.

[Lichtbringer]

It is not thaaaat easy to install Elitemod, especially if you never before installed any mod. And if you then get some problems, (for example the language thing), or if you installed DoW somewhere else, it can be a bit tricky.

I don't think Elite can improve much here, its just a natural barrier for mods in general.

Also, no Matchmaking is a big negative for many people, and it can be quite daunting especially if you are a beginner in DoW2. On the same note, I totally understand why many people would rather play against (perceived) "weaker" players. Many people here on Elite are looking for the Challenge, and are happy to play against Players that are better, but lets face it, not everyone ticks like that and even we sometimes want just a "fun" round.

I think something that we can improve, is to tell people that if you install Elitemod, you can still play Retail (and therefore campaign and Laststand) without having to reinstall anything, I feel like this is a big (assumed) problem for many people, that stopts them from trying Elite out.

@[EL] The Emporer, Question for you^^:
Where do Retail players hang out, is there a active Forum?

[Sneery_Thug]

Perhaps a Moddb page?

That it what I asked about twice or thrice on the forum and in a Cael's question/answer stream and didn't receive any answer. Since I've learned about elite mod really by accident, namely by stumbling upon it in the comments or credits to the destroyer mod page of Bloodravage on moddb.com.
It is the most known mode page actually.

[MaxPower]

A Moddb site like this?: http://www.moddb.com/mods/dawn-of-war-2-retribution-elite-mod - yeah i was kinda bored, so i gave it a try, feel free to comment

I know its very basic for the time being, but I'll try and get all them other members of the mod team to join the developer team thingy.

Hopefully this will ensure more new players.

[Dark Riku]

Mod Awaiting Authorisation
We can see it soon ^^

[MaxPower]

Yeah, kinda forgot that its still waiting for authorisation

[realself]

May I suggest:

(1) Can we please fix the stats to be more honest? Players who are clearly veterans (see screenshot) show up as level 3, which makes it difficult to control access to legitimately new Elite players. (Sorry Nurland, but your stats are a good example.) For whatever "levels" are worth, levels can be reset by smurfing under a new account. I suspect that the stats are under the control of Steam and just broken so maybe this is a lost cause.

(2)A "realistic AI' (meaning most players wouldn't know it's a bot), imho would be something Elite can offer which Retail cannot. Even casual players who don't care much for high-level 1v1 games would be attracted to that. And the Elite newbs who still need to be on Elite at the right time to form newb games could at least have some way to still play, and who knows, play with the experienced players.

(3) Sometimes no newb players are on Elite. It would really help some of us newbs resist the temptation to revert to retail if some of you experienced players would join us in a "balanced" team game. 1 newb, 1 expert on each team in a 2v2. Nobody wants to lose 5-10 games in a row to the point where losing becomes a habit.

[Dalakh]

Can we please fix the stats to be more honest? Players who are clearly veterans (see screenshot) show up as level 3, which makes it difficult to control access to legitimately new Elite players. (Sorry Nurland, but your stats are a good example.)

Actually this is a bug that is easily avoided, only the first army level displayed is showed as level one (always chaos) and if you look at another one and then come back to chaos you will see the real level.

[Dark Riku]

Those statistics are controlled by Steam/Relic and are fucked up.
*Trademark Relic

[realself]

If I had one wish to improve Elite (and consequently win ppl over from retail), it would be to mod the AI. Can this be done, or has it been tried already, with an old thread discussing the attempt?

[Torpid]

If I had one wish to improve Elite (and consequently win ppl over from retail), it would be to mod the AI. Can this be done, or has it been tried already, with an old thread discussing the attempt?

It has been tried but largely failed. It is a possibility though.

[Jes]

The AI can be improved somewhat by fixing ludicrous values and improving ability filters in the ai tuning info file (see ork, ig tanks and ig catas for silly numbers), improving the essential upgrades, and hacking up some workarounds for the AI nuking its econ when using strikes/tacs by stopping it from endlessly switching weapons. (ai-only clone squads that have non-replaceable upgrades)
Granted, these are likely simply leftovers from the last attempt at improving the AI, so mileage may vary.

That said, I'm fairly certain the only AI specialist in these parts is KanKrusha. (or what's his name)

[realself]

The AI can be improved somewhat by fixing ludicrous values and improving ability filters in the ai tuning info file (see ork, ig tanks and ig catas for silly numbers), improving the essential upgrades, and hacking up some workarounds for the AI nuking its econ when using strikes/tacs by stopping it from endlessly switching weapons. (ai-only clone squads that have non-replaceable upgrades)
Granted, these are likely simply leftovers from the last attempt at improving the AI, so mileage may vary.

Thanks. I downloaded the mod tools, but couldn't find the AI files, so I must be looking in the wrong place.

Secondly, I wanted to contribute some real-life answers I have to "how to make players leave retail for Elite?"
What has worked for me is to catch an old retail friend online, start a chat, and coerce them to download it. I personally left retail because a player I respect joined a retail game with me and utterly owned the opposition. He remarked about Elite, and I followed suit.