GK in Patch 2.3.1

[Forestradio]

Just revert it back to HI armor, it was pretty much fine that way. I suppose a melee resistance aura of ~25% could be added if it was still deemed too fragile.

The armor upgrade is still bad tho, it should probably grant +1 to the carrying capacity of the rhino.

Also there's no point in going for double rhinos in t1, one rhino will do the same job of mobility+hiding your troops...

[Ven]

Just revert it back to HI armor, it was pretty much fine that way. I suppose a melee resistance aura of ~25% could be added if it was still deemed too fragile.

The armor upgrade is still bad tho, it should probably grant +1 to the carrying capacity of the rhino.

Also there's no point in going for double rhinos in t1, one rhino will do the same job of mobility+hiding your troops...

i see double rhinos in pretty much every game i play with/against GK and it wrecks, there is very little some races can do to them like i said with some races not having power melee in T1 or specialised damage types. eldar with shees for example would wreck rhinos, but chaos would be stopped dead by rhinos entirely relying on rear armour doomblasts and havocs to do damage, which isnt very good as the BC and the rhinos themselves counter both havocs and tics.

with SHI now i see people using rhinos as basically a sentinel in T1, i very rarely seen them used as actual transports. back in 2.3.0 you saw 3 ISTs popping out of one, now you see 2 rhinos charging down lines and winning engagements.

back in 2.3.0, rhinos died to maybe 2-3 volleys of 2x GM squads, but now some races can barely even do damage to it in T1. thus why i think that neither HI or SHI infantry is something the rhino should have.
either make a new armour type or give it HI armour but remove the possibility of it getting rear armour hits.

TL;DR: SHI is too powerful, HI is underpowered when the rhino can take rear armour hits, with this games vehicle pathing. the 2.3.0 rhino was really bad. but 2.3.1s rhino is OP as certain MUs could do NOTHING to them in T1.

[Ace of Swords]

Said this 99999999999 times, SHI is fine, drastically lower the hp so that it also makes it worth purchasing the extra armor upgrade in t2.

[Ar-Aamon]

SH Armor is fine, just reduce it's health.

edit: Actually it was me who proposed this long time ago

[Torpid]

The SHI is not fine and lowering its t1 health is not an option as that doesn't address the real problem that is that 2IST out-repairing pretty much any damage that can be done to the Rhino in T1 now precisely because of its SHI.

[Ace of Swords]

Then I guess we have a problem with the sentinel aswell, give it normal infantry armor because obviously it's impossible to break the repair rate of 2gms

not.

[Ven]

Said this 99999999999 times, SHI is fine, drastically lower the hp so that it also makes it worth purchasing the extra armor upgrade in t2.

yup. either do that or one of the other things i suggested. but in its current state it's OP.

[Forestradio]

I had no problems keeping a HI rhino alive even into late t3 in big game modes where ranged blobs of doom are flying around

I also want to see a replay of a successful double rhino strat because I just don't buy it.


Now getting away from the rhino a bit:

Inferno Cannon dread. This thing is still awful at fulfilling a dedicated AoE damage role. At the very least it should have inspiration upon melee kill and get a ~15% damage increase, and I'd argue that it should also receive some kind of ability, something to combo with a libby or hellfury strike or whatever.

[Ven]

Then I guess we have a problem with the sentinel aswell, give it normal infantry armor because obviously it's impossible to break the repair rate of 2gms

not.

but you logically shoot at the GM to force them off to stop the repairing. however any ISTs you get low will just hop inside the rhino and then hop back out and continue repairing once there is no threat. IG dont have many units that can solo very well, you kinda have to keep most of their stuff together for it to be effective. GK however not only has a tanky, supportive commander that does power melee but they also have strike squads and interceptors which can solo very well, the only IG unit that can solo well in T1 is catachans, but unlike GK SS or interceptors, they do not have melee special attack to distrupt stuff. you dont need to keep the GK stuff in a blob for them them be effective.
and thats where the dynamic changes, the engagement plays out very differently due to it being an entirely different race, so using sentinel as an example isnt exactly justified.

and let me say that vs HI, piercing will do .67, but vs SHI piercing only does .30, thats a very big difference.

[Ace of Swords]

^wrong, GM are much harder to kill/force off than ISTs, and with little hp on the rhino, and the fact it has rear armor a single fuck up and it's dead, the sentinel would be much harder to kill.

[Torpid]

What a ridiculous comparison. The compositions aren't even remotely similar. Not to mention guardsmen don't do burst damage like IST, nor can guardsmen reload while they hop onto the back of the sentinel. If only IG had a bro-cap so they could counter suppression without any power investment whatsoever. Then you have to account for IG squad's relative uselessness with regards to capping points solo, a problem that GK don't have and then sentinels obviously are HI not SHI which leads to a big difference in damage taken.

[Ven]

What a ridiculous comparison. The compositions aren't even remotely similar. Not to mention guardsmen don't do burst damage like IST, nor can guardsmen reload while they hop onto the back of the sentinel. If only IG had a bro-cap so they could counter suppression without any power investment whatsoever. Then you have to account for IG squad's relative uselessness with regards to capping points solo, a problem that GK don't have and then sentinels obviously are HI not SHI which leads to a big difference in damage taken.

^^^This^^^

that is exactly my point.

[Ar-Aamon]

1 Guardsmen equals 2 IST when it comes to repair... Nevermind you handle the rhino like the Sentinel. Cut it off from support. Shoot the IST.

[Torpid]

1 guardsmen+1 sent and one guardsmen elsewhere capping is extremely easier to deal with than one IST with a rhino inside wizzing around the map harrassing squads +1 IST capping. This ignores the fact that the BC is far superior to any IG hero in terms of T1 prowess except potentially the LG vs eldar/orks.

[Forestradio]

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9713558

Anyone else see a way I could have played this differently?

[Ace of Swords]

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/replays.php?game=47&show=details&id=299591&st=0#post9713558

Anyone else see a way I could have played this differently?

Spam more rhinos apparently they are insta win :^)

What a ridiculous comparison. The compositions aren't even remotely similar. Not to mention guardsmen don't do burst damage like IST, nor can guardsmen reload while they hop onto the back of the sentinel. If only IG had a bro-cap so they could counter suppression without any power investment whatsoever. Then you have to account for IG squad's relative uselessness with regards to capping points solo, a problem that GK don't have and then sentinels obviously are HI not SHI which leads to a big difference in damage taken.

This is a ridicolous statement, 2 ISTs aren't going to do half of what 2 GMs do and each time they hop out of the rhino they will lose atleast a model which on a squad of 5 man that fragile is quite a big deal.

They don't have the overall damage output, they drop like flies, a rhino with nerfed hp wouldn't be able to tank like a sentinel and it also had 0, ZERO, and I'll repeat it again Z - E - R - 0 ways to control blobs, it also does less damage than a sentinel, and IG plays in a different way from GKs aswell, they don't need more than 40% of the map to stay in the game resource points wise and their bleed is minimal.

GKs on the other hand have to invest heavily in both req and power in all the tiers except in 3v3s where they can get carried and skip t1.

Plus the sentinel has no rear armor, it can decap points and it requires minimal babysitting when it's used to harass while the rhino is babysit me: the unit, both micro and units needed to suppot and which it needs to support wise.

[Cheekie Monkie]

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/replays.php?game=47&show=details&id=299591&st=0#post9713558

Anyone else see a way I could have played this differently?

There's nothing that hindsight can't provide!

I guess you could have gotten the hammertime instead of the halberd, though you must not have been expecting genestealers?

What was the reasoning behind the las-rhino as opposed to the heavy bolter? Were you expecting a TG, an early carnie or were looking to pop warriors?

Spam more rhinos apparently they are insta win :^)

I wouldn't be surprised if this became the new cool.

[Forestradio]

I guess you could have gotten the hammertime instead of the halberd, though you must not have been expecting genestealers?

I always expect genestealers from Noisy ^^ The halberd was supposed to help with ganking the RA while he was suppressed and also with popping synapse bombs (also I had no power income to save for the hammer when I bought it)

What was the reasoning behind the las-rhino as opposed to the heavy bolter? Were you expecting a TG, an early carnie or were looking to pop warriors?

The las rhino is infinitely superior to the bolter here, obviously it's the best way to finish off a fex. The less obvious reason for getting a lasrhino is that also snipes most nid models with a single hit, and that high burst damage on a fast single entity that's always going to be kiting is invaluable. The bolter has its uses, but it's a sustained dps weapon. Not as useful when you're always driving backwards.

I am just at complete loss of what to do here, I mean 6 squad t1 and only get off one genbash? Wipe gants/gaunts, and thornback? np np the matchup is here to save the day.

[Ven]

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/replays.php?game=47&show=details&id=299591&st=0#post9713558

Anyone else see a way I could have played this differently?

knowing that genestealers were on the field, and that you were expecting them. a rhino would not have been my purchase. you saw how it melted and thats exactly why i wouldnt get it without the vehicle armour upgrade. noisy did not get any AV until T3.

double purgs kinda rekt, but remember that there is now a damage multiplayer based off of distance like shotguns. so maybe should of been closer while gen bashing.

i think perhaps you could of gotten a libby quicker, knowing that he was going to get genestealers.

Perhaps a plasma gun on one of your ISTs to suppress incoming melee and snipe warrior models?

Purifiers + Libby, nuff said.

get gud.

[Cheekie Monkie]

This is where I question the continuing viability of T1 double purgs. Traditionally you'd get them because:

a) Purgs didn't suppress fast enough, or only suppressed single units
b) You want one purg to fire normally, and the other to use purged by fire

Of course, that 60 power investment is still going to get trolled by jump troops and single model units (i.e. heroes). With the improved suppression capability of purgs and the improvements to the rhino's damage and survivability, are T1 double purgs necessary or even desirable any more?

Ven, purifiers would melt under catalyst genesneakers (you saw how fast his SS melted). The rhino was a fair choice under the circumstances to regain map control, harass, kite and stall for a dreadnought whilst being relatively power friendly (though you could argue that a detector was necessary to stop yourself from being ambushed, bringing the tally to a less power friendly 55)

[Ven]

Ven, purifiers would melt under catalyst genesneakers (you saw how fast his SS melted). The rhino was a fair choice under the circumstances to regain map control, harass, kite and stall for a dreadnought whilst being relatively power friendly (though you could argue that a detector was necessary to stop yourself from being ambushed, bringing the tally to a less power friendly 55)

well yea by themselves, but in combination with a libby they would of rekt. a well timed sanctuary + psychic field would melt the genestealers, all the while the double purges be purgin.

[Atlas]

I would say something about Rhinos if it didn't start a fire over it

Strike squads are performing really well now. I just seem to have some problem foregoing a halberd in exchange for any of the weapons at times. I feel like the Justicar is far and away the best upgrade on them right now.

Also, does anybody feel like the grenade launcher upgrade on the GK Dread seems overpriced at 75/25? Maybe I just don't notice its impact in game but it feels a bit steep.

-Edits, price correction and minor spelling-

[Ven]

i think the GL has been brought up before and i tend to agree. its kinda meh.
i also agree with the SS statement aswell, usually i only get a weapon upgrade for my SS if i have psibolts ammo and im desperate for AV.

[enasni127]

I don't think ANY unit should have SHI armor on t1. If some people here say "it's fine" then we could as well give it to the sentinel - let's see how fine that is if setup teams are worthless vs ig - as they are atm vs grey knights with rhino.

[Cyris]

Necro'd!

Been playing more DoW lately, and decided to pick GK as my main instead of my usual Random. I mained them very early on, but a ton has changed from then till now (and damn was it needed!) I've been trying to come at them "fresh" and just try all kinds of wacky combos and see what comes up. So a couple of things (mostly from 1v1 perspective):

1- Crewfinity - You started a really good breakdown of GK units early in this thread, but never went past T1. I would love to see you go further! I feel especially lost on what to do come T2.5, and my T3 feels very weak / overpriced. You called out T3 being very strong, so I'm curious what you focused on.

2- Power Economy - More then any other faction I've played, my GK hits large Power gates in T2. With semi "stardard" compositions in T1 (2 IST, strike and 1-2 other units) I find myself running out of power super quick in T2, while swimming in req with nothing to spend it on. I find the reasons for this are:
Most of my T1 squads beg for upgrades to stay relevant in T2 (including BC), and many of these have a high Power to Req ratio. T2 units are also super Power intensive - VA is the cheap guy, Libby starts reasonable but badly wants upgrades which push his Power investment up, Purifiers are realistically 100 Power and renforce for Power too, and the Dread is of course a Dread. The net result of this is a super full req bar and little power.
Most other races have more then one T2+ options that have high R:P (req to power) to help even this out. SM being the nutsy example with pdev, but there are many other units with ratios of 8+ that fit well into many compositions. (storm troopers, tank bustas, venoms, zoan, wraithguard, warp spiders (7.6),
Do other GK players experience this? If not, what sort of builds are you liking lately?

3- AV - AV used to be just garbage on GK, but these days I find it so much more reasonable. I still feel the lack of a clear hard AV option, and I wish there was a 2nd unit with a snare option (I don't like being forced to build Interceptors), but the "death of a thousand cuts" style AV GK bring to the table seems to work. You defenetaly need to consider who you are facing and plan ahead in T1 for the T2 options you will need, but the tools are mostly there. Las-Rhinos shooting at infantry over low health walkers is getting old, but everything in DoW does that, so no real fault. If anything, I'd still like to try Rhinos losing fire on the move with the las, in exchange for longer range. It might make them more reliable?

4 - Libby - This guy is solid! I've been treating him like Wierdboy (ie: always get him, no matter what) and it's been working fairly well. His skills really fill holes I have, and when upgraded he is very independent. Might of Terra is awesome! Only problem I have with him is that microing 2 sub-commanders that are so different is hard, and I'm on the back foot if I lose one.

5- Purifiers - I still don't grok this unit. They are a lot like Ogryns in my mind - super dedicated linebreaker melee that become great when comboed with support abilities from other units - but the lack of Heavy Melee and high power costs often leave me disappointed I didn't just make a melee dread.

In short, been liking GK, would love to see more discussion on how to use them that isn't all about the SHI Rhino!

[Crewfinity]

Hmmm yeah I might revisit that. I've been getting a lot of experience with GK in 1v1 lately so I have a lot of thoughts about them.

[Forestradio]

If not, what sort of builds are you liking lately?

[Atlas]

If not, what sort of builds are you liking lately?

I can't understand this strange alien language It feels like if I can figure out this message I can win every game until they nerf blessed aegis.

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In more seriousness, yeah. You can't really go wrong with this start.