Tyranid Topic

[FiSH]

i actually wasn't sure, so i tested.
i was mistaken, you're absolutely right!

[Vapor]

I think if you wanted to nerf flesh hook, the best way would be to reduce its range and/or reduce how far the enemy model is pulled in. This would make it harder for the Lictor to snipe (sub)commanders, since it'd be more likely that he'd end up in enemy detection range. Also the hooked unit would be less likely to end up in the middle of the nid army.

[Codex]

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread. ... lesh-Hooks

The last post made me think of this fun exchange.

Post 41 till the end of the page.

[Ace of Swords]

I think if you wanted to nerf flesh hook, the best way would be to reduce its range and/or reduce how far the enemy model is pulled in. This would make it harder for the Lictor to snipe (sub)commanders, since it'd be more likely that he'd end up in enemy detection range. Also the hooked unit would be less likely to end up in the middle of the nid army.

I agree with this, the range needs to be nerfed, and quite alot.

I mean look at this, it's insane, i belive the inq had a similar range on HoTW before the nerf and it was simply OP the same goes for the LA.

http://i.imgur.com/9Ssodtc.jpg

Not only for commanders/weapon teams etc, but also the ability to snipe the last models of a squad from such range, it's simply too good and doesn't require skill at all to use.

[Asmon]

I also wish that Steam had chat history.

It does.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

pretty sure weird boy vomit stuns the entire squad if any unit is hit; i know the sent stomp does. they generally are slowed to a crawl by squad formation if they're not all stunned though.

[Lag]

I also wish that Steam had chat history.

It does.

It remembers the last convo, and then again dumps it after you close the window. There are no logs or anything.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

First of all, I don't know why in 2.1 Flesh Hooks had a cooldown decreases, when it's the best ability to harrass in the first moments of the battle. Without mentioning the req bleed that cause. (in vanilla form against Eldar, Ork squads or with Feeder Tendrils against SM/Chaos/GK.)

I agree, IMHO needs a range nerf.

[Indrid]

HT Bio-Plasma is still not performing well. I dunno what is up with the targeting but it's so unreliable. You'll target a set-up and only one of the models will get hit or something. Very hard to hit "just right". I'd consider moving it to T2 with a bunch of changes; decrease damage and increase radius with 30 power cost and maybe tweak the flight time/animation.

[Kvek]

I love this wargear, i use it so often, sadly it hits terrain so much. The best way to use this is to use it like a grenade barrage (try to stop charging melee units with it)

What about it will make use the same indicator as a Warrior-Drop and it will drop a big bio-plasma from air ?

[Indrid]

Well I think if the targeting was "perfect" it would be awesome, so an indicator would still be useful.

[EBA]

Well the hive tyrant is very tall, and forced vomiting is kind of tiring, so he might simply be getting dizzy when he does it. I'd suggest balance exercises on a weekly regime to get him spewing on target more regularly.

[Kvek]

Can i ask why hormas and termas can now buy the Warrior Leaders ?

It's so broken with the endless swarm, they are basically 3k hp units with AV/Good melee damage and don't bleed at all, and they also don't need a WB/VB nearby.
Also i know that they have one model that can do a synapse-backlash, but the Leader has over 500 hp, and usually goes down last.

Also HT Rending talons, they can simply block any retreating unit for like 2 seconds, usually wiping the squad. And they are also too cheap for what they can do.

[Codex]

In terms of design I imagine it's to help hormagaunts and termagants scale into the late game, and make nid builds without warriors broods more viable. Is it completely balanced right now? Probably not, but that's what a beta is for.

[Dark Riku]

It's to make them scale better to T3. The synapse the leaders provide are also only for the squads themselves and not the other squads around. So it's not just a cheap replacement for your warriors if you happened to lose them. I personally don't think they are imba. But we shall first test some more before the final verdict
[Pretty much what Codex said]


Don't let the slow ht get into your retreat path? :p
I also feel like it shouldn't make retreating units pause. Maybe it's something Thomas can look into after some more pressing things are resolved?

Arguments could be made I guess to make it go up to 25 power.
I myself am not sure about this though.
I think Indrid also states in his casts that he finds it an amazingly good upgrade :p

[Kvek]

The termagaunts with leaders do AV damage (one venom cannon) so if you have 2 termas, one venom brood, how can you tie up so many units ?

[Dark Riku]

Well, their main role is still anti-infantry damage.
And snaring any unit that isn't a vehicle.
One venom cannon isn't going to do much on it's own. It will help for sure. Maybe Caeltos can reduce the damage of the venom model in the future if it is a problem?
But just tie up the venom brood if you want to protect whatever armour you have.

And seeing as in your case the Nid has invested quite some resources in all the leaders you should have some stuff out on the field too. All theory here of course ^^

[Ace of Swords]

with 2 termagants that's 66% of the dps of a venom brood squad, now that in t3 you have 2 leaders in 2 absurdly hard squads to force off because of ES + leader and over 3kHP + no bleed, a venom brood for dedicated AV, and let's add in the mix commander AV or something like a carnie or lictor, and what you can exactly do that against that? it's just too much, it's out of control.

[Caeltos]

I'm tired of seeing one side of the fence arguements. It's really getting tiresome.

[Dark Riku]

What to do against that you ask? The termagaunts are a t1 squad.
You should already have a counter unit or units long before t3 ...

Or in your other situation. Endless swarm x2, venom leader x2, venom squad, hero upgrade(s) and a fex. I'm sure you can field something for those resources too...

[Ace of Swords]

Like what? Termies? raped by by sheer dps considering also that they take full damage from venom broods,a pred? lol dead in 2 seconds, a LR? on what purpose? There is so much ranged AV that I will spend the whole time repairing in the back, and you also have to consider that nids are quickly to hit T3, after endless swarm you barely need to get another unit since you get uber DPS, hormas take the spot of genestalers in countering T2 dedicated melee such as ogryns,Kcsm,shees etc, the only real purchase you need is a venombrood and some wargear and then you can move on in getting a doom,lictor/carnies.

Also just for comparison sake let's not forget that chaos termies, a T3 super unit that costs 550/100 -300 red to field has 3500HP, it's not fine at all that fully upgraded squads that come from T1, are very effective in what they do and will most likely be at lvl 4 by t3-late t3 to reach between 3k-3450hp (i don't remember the exact value) AND reinforce 2:1, in all this mix there is also the fact that they usually 'bug' in the same way cathacians do and will barely lose models, too often i played with nids and came out with 6/10 termas/hormas with 200 hp.

The only real solution is artillery since they blob up nicely, the problem comes again with endless swarm which lets them literally tank it without caring much, and if this wasn't enough thanks to towers and commanders they have no problem at all in either dodging or tiyng up the unit.

[MyMe]

with 2 termagants that's 66% of the dps of a venom brood squad, now that in t3 you have 2 leaders in 2 absurdly hard squads to force off because of ES + leader and over 3kHP + no bleed, a venom brood for dedicated AV, and let's add in the mix commander AV or something like a carnie or lictor, and what you can exactly do that against that? it's just too much, it's out of control.

Yes, with 2 termagant squads you have 2 extra AV models. So if you send in a vehicle alone, it'll be taken down a little bit quicker. However, against a full army, those termagants should be focusing infantry squads. They are either firing at infantry or vehicles, not both. Keep that in mind when thinking about how numerous nid AV sources might seem to be in an engagement.

[Ace of Swords]

That's wrong, you focus squads following the right order to break down the enemy combination or by eliminating the greatest threat, infantry fire is easily shrugged off by 3k+ squads, and all that extra AV will make vehicles effectively useless.


Obviously this is taking into consideration that the enemy vehicle is your biggest threat. Which usually is for nids.

[MyMe]

I disagree. The time you spend firing at that vehicle with your anti-infantry squad could be put to much better use focusing infantry in 90% of situations. Sure, you might force off the vehicle a little quicker, but the rest of the army you neglected to pressure will be in your face with full health. It's like attacking a vehicle with a AG warrior brood- Yeah, you got a little AV but they're so much better at knocking down infantry. Use squads against squads they'll be most effective against, for the most part.

[Dark Riku]

Ace, you counter their combination of squads with your own combination of squads. Like suppression teams and unit abilities. Not just one vehicle.
And in the Case of Chaos (Guessing here based on your post) a nurgle pred would do wonders. Heal rate is kinda very very strong atm :p
Need some more exp with this thing though.

Yes the "Endless Swarm" "few-model-losses-bug" bothers me a lot too.
I would like to hear if there are other possibilities here.
Is it possible to just make it an upgrade and give 2 extra models without them having the squad leader properties? This would also mean that the upgrade is permanent even if you lose all but 1 model. Unless that can be coded in?
Thomas where art thee? :p

As far for the terminator comparison: Yes it also bother me that AV weapons for some reason do 100% dmg on these guys yet they are infantry. Matter of fact I find both ranged terminators rather lackluster in Elite mod but that's for another topic.

[Ace of Swords]

Ace, you counter their combination of squads with your own combination of squads.

It really depends on situation and playstyle, i prefer to localize the weakness or the diamond tip of the enemy and quickly get rid of it, nids, especially has of now, have no problems at all tanking damage and losing models, what i mean is that they can enter any fight of attrition and come out on top in every tier giving you time to get rid on anything that keeps your opponent's units together, once you get rid of that key unit there is nothing he can do, for example against SM initially it's either ASM or scouts, later on Dreds or RBs, and as things stand now, in T3 pretty much nothing, and no i wasn't referring to any faction in particular before, though chaos is one of the best factions in dealing with blobs and shutting down nids quickly.

For the rest I pretty much agree on everything.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i would suggest an AC dread or, maybe, a whirl wind for SM. eldar should just get a FP. IG should probably get a plasma lemon. of course you're going to have to anticipate him somewhat because you're not going to have those resources in a lump sum but he won't either so you should be able to make a general guess.

[Kvek]

Whirlwind ? "laughs"

[Torpid]

Stop calling lemans lemons! They're the toughest tank in the entire game and utterly annihilate everything. They don't even resemble lemons in the slightest, even when they're painted yellow. It's like calling the Great Unclean One the Little Spotless Fairy.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

even the most cunning enemy will fall for the lemon ruse