Grey Knights Topic

[Lag]

So BC, Strike Squad's high melee skill and awesome special, and interceptor squad aren't enough to deal with melee, so we need fast-moving nades on Storms, leaving them with no setback compared to other arty-ish units?

[Dark Riku]

Those things don't counter melee at all.
You'll die if you are hoping for specials the entire time.
They have melee skill 70 like most other melee squads.
Not to mention the BC has the slowest retreat in the game.

Interceptors are their jump troops.
Since when do jump troops counter dedicated melee?

[Codex]

In any cases where the squads have equal melee skill, the ones with higher model counts tend to have the advantage. Even in cases where an Interceptor would beat a melee squad, it would still lose by cost efficiency.

[Lag]

Those things don't counter melee at all.
You'll die if you are hoping for specials the entire time.
They have melee skill 70 like most other melee squads.
Not to mention the BC has the slowest retreat in the game.

Interceptors are their jump troops.
Since when do jump troops counter dedicated melee?

So what counters melee in SM roster? Shotgun blast? But it is just one ability, just like the IST nade ability. Then what after that? Bad design?
I am not talking about the knockback ability, I was talking about the normal attack of the Naded ISTs. How do they need those nades to be so fast? How do SM manage with Tacs (who have even less melee proficiency than the Strike Squad), ASM (jump troop) and the low health Scouts?

[Lag]

In any cases where the squads have equal melee skill, the ones with higher model counts tend to have the advantage. Even in cases where an Interceptor would beat a melee squad, it would still lose by cost efficiency.

Slugga does special attack - one Strike model gets knocked back.
Strike model does special attack - 4 Sluggas get knocked back hard and splash damage.
Sluggas bleed like hell.
Strike models bleed pretty much like Tacs.

I agree with you when they are up against Banshees or some other dedicated anti power armor squad.

[Codex]

Sluggas get trounced partly because of their melee skill. Riku and I labbed ASM vs Sluggas with Waaaagh, and ASM don't win all too comfortably, so even then, Sluggas win for cost because they will bleed, but it also hurts Space Marines' map sustainability a lot. And bear in mind that ASM have melee skill on their side, so they'll never get knocked on their backs, and they've each got a 15% chance of proccing a special. This is why you should note that I said assuming equal melee skill in my last post.

Besides, compared to Shees, Shees have a much higher chance of knocking the whole ASM on its back at the same time, while ASM could knock over 2 or maybe 3 models if they're lucky.

Re: SM

SM counters melee by creating tactical opportunities for other units to exploit. E.g. using a devastator to stop the advance then pummeling it at range, or using a shotgun blast to give free uninterrupted damage without any melee retaliation. Isolated shotguns can be easily tied up.

[Asmon]

Actually a Slugga Boy will never do a special attack against a Strike Squad member. Nice try though :p

[Codex]

In my opinion, due to racial design it's best to use GK to pummel things at range, then charge in with the superior melee when it will cause a rout. In the end, Sluggas are really the only melee squad that Strikes can beat down, but if they get lucky with a lack of specials from say vanilla shees they can still stand up to them. However, the later the game goes, the more damaging retreat chases tend to be (with the addition of stacked waaagh and fleet of foot/swift movement being examples).

As a result I find that it's better to stay more conservative at range and take advantage of your heavy armor and use the countercharge to force them to break their lines on yours. It's not so much that they counter melee straight up, it's that they have the sustainability to employ this strategy.

[Lag]

Sluggas get trounced partly because of their melee skill. Riku and I labbed ASM vs Sluggas with Waaaagh, and ASM don't win all too comfortably, so even then, Sluggas win for cost because they will bleed, but it also hurts Space Marines' map sustainability a lot. And bear in mind that ASM have melee skill on their side, so they'll never get knocked on their backs, and they've each got a 15% chance of proccing a special. This is why you should note that I said assuming equal melee skill in my last post.

Besides, compared to Shees, Shees have a much higher chance of knocking the whole ASM on its back at the same time, while ASM could knock over 2 or maybe 3 models if they're lucky.

Re: SM

SM counters melee by creating tactical opportunities for other units to exploit. E.g. using a devastator to stop the advance then pummeling it at range, or using a shotgun blast to give free uninterrupted damage without any melee retaliation. Isolated shotguns can be easily tied up.

Why are you talking about ASM when I talked about the Strike Squad? Strike Squad has a super duper special attack that sends things flying and does some nasty splash damage. ASM don't.
I bet Strikes rape Hormas as well, and their melee skill and damage will come in handy in the middle of the game, not just in the beginning (like Tacs).

[Ace of Swords]

Yeah their specials are a big problem, if they do atleast one they can almost 1 shot hormas, if they don't they lose, if GKs are to balanced these specials should be removed or toned down alot.

It makes especially the first engagements very luck based.

[krakza]

I bet Strikes rape Hormas as well.

If they proc a special attack, yes. Otherwise, blah blah cost efficiency. If Strike Squad loses a model, hormas have pretty much won. Though this is from experience of a whole 2 games, so don't take my word for fact.

Also, BC's power sword. Does it justify it's cost?

I know we're not big on comparing commanders due to the races' needs to be different, but the Force Commander's power sword costs 5 power less - but the biggest difference is that he goes from 30ish melee to 50ish power melee. BC gets like, 3 extra melee damage, which is the same damage type as his base weapon.

[Torpid]

It's getting a massive buff next patch. However regarding the BC's power sword, I would argue it is a defensive upgrade, much more so than the FC's which is more of a support upgrade, as it is decent defensively, offensively and buffensively.

Because the BC's sword grants an improved WATH, it means it grants improved speed and defense, so this allows you to control incoming melee with your purgation squad. Keep SS at the front with the BC to tank, then have the purgs behind them and storms slightly behind and to the sides, position the purgs so they will shoot at whatever melee is incoming, and FF the melee first OC, especially single entities because the purgs won't do nowhere near as much damage to them. Then when the melee gets nearby activate the special, now the SS engages in melee and can hit constantly in the back of the melee squad due to the buffed speed and the purgation can kite to great effect due to their additional speed, all the while the damage debuff let's your storms tank a decent amount of ranged damage while in cover and then the BC can charge into their ranged units with his soon-to-be 40dps power melee weapon.

[krakza]

It's getting a massive buff next patch.

God damn I always forget to check the next patch. Thanks for the reply

[Kvek]

What you guys think about giving Melta-guns to Inq storm troopers ?

[winkel]

Sounds about as OP as the IG equivalent - which means I'm all for it (as a t3 upgrade).

I'd like to discuss something else actually:
The mines that'll be introduced in 2.2 are actually really really shit as soon as the opponent gets detection and/or artilllery.
The low health on the mines, their huge hitboxes and singular nature makes them incredibly easy to turn against the player using them, which seriously decreases their usefulness.
- but it might just be me having turned slightly more cynical as of late.

[Kvek]

Sounds about as OP as the IG equivalent - which means I'm all for it (as a t3 upgrade).

OP ? Get detection.

[EBA]

What you guys think about giving Melta-guns to Inq storm troopers ?

You just want to force them to get really close to all those things that can kill them. You're a terrible person.

On the other hand blowing up tanks is supposed to be a ticket into... umm... wherever imperials go where they die and been good. And it's not like anything else the Grey Knights have can do it.

[crazyman64335]

so my latest outing with GK and i'm still wondering why a strike squad is more expensive than tacs? sure they have better melee skill no doubt, but they suffer greatly it seems with ranged damage due to the crazy slow rate of fire compared to tacs. Maybe it's just me being silly again. My opinion they should be 450 req, not the current 500

[Dark Riku]

There isn't much difference in the ranged dps:
raw dps storm bolter 13.68
tac bolter 14.58

Visuals don't mean anything btw.

They have 70 melee skill instead of 60.
They do special attacks.
They have a lil more health (+45HP)
They do 23.08 melee dps and tacs do 19.

[saltychipmunk]

Gks are excessively resource inefficient and lack decent weapon scaling on their units when going into t2.

strikes in t1 ? great squad well worth 500 req because that aoe melee can easily deter any one full hp t1 melee squad excluding banshees.

One thing they share with tacs is that in t2 they become a rather lack luster ranged unit. But the tacs can actually fix this by forgoing a squad leader and getting a plasma gun vs heavy inf or a rocket launcher vs vehicles. mainly because both are spike damage.

but the strikes get that garbage psycannon which shall go down as the worst weapon in the game. low dps , not spike damage . I can see softcounter jack of all trade weapons being ok , but this weapon takes the soft part to an extreme unheard of in this game. It may do damage to everything , too bad that damage is so tiny and gradual to matter.


then there is storm troopers. This unit goes against one of main strengths indicative of an army that is supposed to be dominated by fewer but stronger units. It bleeds req out the ass. they are essentially guardian squads which are as durable as tissue paper when not supported by suppression. Which gks dont have (those flamers are garbage).

they cost more than scouts bleed twice as much, do some slightly more damage and take more pop. If you give them heretic nade launchers you only have one model free before you start losing grenades . Heretics can lose 4 models , half the squad and maintain a 4 pop grenade squad before losing a grenade launcher.

and then there are interceptors the inferior version of asm. The instant teleport ability is nice for getting that one extra hit on retreating units. But using a jump unit to kill retreating units is a miss use of the unit any way. jump units dont have the dps or movement speed to make that work unbuffed. Thus that so called benefit is largely unusable in t1 . (t2 they get better)

Where as asm get their jump which does play to a jump units strengths by disrupting units and getting free hits.

obviously i think the flame thrower guys dont really do their job right now (crappy version of noise marines for the same cost).

any one of these issue alone doesnt hurt gk that much. But the fact is that all their units especially in t1 are slightly too expensive and cost inefficient. And together it all stacks up.

It is especially noticeable vs imperial guard and sm match ups.
Ig can literally just spam guardsmen and face tank the low dps output of the gks with 3 1000 hp squads and a sentinal. (nad launchers help but are expensive due to the aforementioned reasons above)

sm can literally mirror the same bo of a gk as fc and have a noticeably superior result.

2 scouts 1 tac 1 asm + power sword is 120 req 5 power cheaper than the similar 2 storm , 1 interceptor 1 strike power sword build . And the sm will decisively destroy the gks.

[Codex]

I find it surprising that throughout this time you don't mention that GK have access to some great abilities, like Canticle of Absolution and their global silence, which has a BIG effect on the SM vs GK matchup in particular.

In terms of cost inefficiency GK are still being tweaked. The base idea is to make a race that functions without just being "SM but stronger". Thus you'll find Interceptors, although they cost 50 req more, don't have extra hp over ASM, but they do have instant teleport (which is stronger with the Justicar onwards) and they have higher dps than ASM do.

Psycannons are still being tweaked. In previous patches they tore up anything and everything in pairs, and combined with Rhinos ferrying them around GK could wipe armies all over a 3v3 map.

And purgations (make it double) used to be the flavour of the month. And purgations are still very effective against guardsmen spam despite this.

[Dark Riku]

Srikes too can get a sarge that provides you with a great draining ability.
Making other squads not able to use their abilities. And give back energy to your own.

You are far underestimating the ranged damage that stormtroopers do.

[crazyman64335]

yes interceptors are better than asm's in raw melee skill and dps, but they NEED the justicar to even provide disruption, which seems rather odd to me that they cost more, and require more resources to even become a disruption squad.

[solariangod]

Strikes can be really awesome if you use them correctly in t2. First, the psycannon provides some soft av. Combine it with a GK Dread or the soft av of Purifier Justicar with rear armor hits, and you can take down, or at least threaten, a vehicle, especially t2 ones. In addition, their Justicar gives them an ability that damages and slows (IIRC) squads, and also gives another that allows them to return 30 (IIRC) energy to a unit. Combined with Canticle of Absolution, this allows three or even four Interceptor jumps in a single engagement, which is some awesome disruption. Also, even if you don't get the psycannon, the incinerator is just as good as a tac flamer for bashing gens. Hell, you can even make them a melee squad to supplement your Interceptors if you get Nemesis Focus.

Interceptors are hardly inferior to asm. They have an instant teleport, can be buffed by We Are The Hammer to take less damage and move faster, and can perform two jumps with just their base energy pool. They also do higher dps while having the same health as asm. They only get better in t2, with the Justicar giving furious intervention, and Nemesis focus giving increased health and damage. The only thing I'd like to see changed is the Krak grenade either become a Melta bomb, or be given a shorter fuse. Also, interceptors are great for retreat killing. They're obviously no banshees, and they're not going to chase you back to base, but they can wipe a low health unit if they get in retreat path. How is it not a good option to jump after a retreating unit if given the opportunity to wipe a squad, especially when I've won the engagement and forced off his army or caught him out of position with a unit?

You have trouble with IG as GK? Get grenade launchers on the IST for disruption and splash damage, an incinerator on the strike squad, and use either purgation to suppress (it under performs against melee (in my opinion), but it is useful in a ranged fight, especially if they're blobbed for both the splash damage and the suppression) or BC and Interceptors to tie up GM.

Getting interceptors against FC? That's you're problem. You're using a melee squad to fight a commander who has a lot of really good melee counters. Get Purgation instead. They'll focus down the FC fast enough, especially in tier 2 with Pyscannons.

[Kvek]

Purgation will focus down FC ?"laughs"
before they suppress him, he will be already in them with his power sword buffing the shit out of his units.

[saltychipmunk]

Strikes can be really awesome if you use them correctly in t2. First, the psycannon provides some soft av. Combine it with a GK Dread or the soft av of Purifier Justicar with rear armor hits, and you can take down, or at least threaten, a vehicle, especially t2 ones. In addition, their Justicar gives them an ability that damages and slows (IIRC) squads, and also gives another that allows them to return 30 (IIRC) energy to a unit. Combined with Canticle of Absolution, this allows three or even four Interceptor jumps in a single engagement, which is some awesome disruption. Also, even if you don't get the psycannon, the incinerator is just as good as a tac flamer for bashing gens. Hell, you can even make them a melee squad to supplement your Interceptors if you get Nemesis Focus.

a single psycannon is not a threat to anything , and for 25 power its is wasted power.

I will admit the justicar makes it a decent support squad , but you are very generous with your power aren't you,

Combine it with a dread , a interceptor and Canticle absolution? This assumes you have pretty large power advantage over your opponent. Purifiers ? another 100 power, i mean holy crap by the time you get all that out , the average sm play would have been well into t3.

again the fact that all their units are stupid expensive is the real weakness of strikes. If the other units could be deployed cheaper you could easily invest into strikes a support squad without falling far behind in the tech race.

as for the incinerator , that is actually one of the major reasons why the dedicated flamer squad is so redundant.

Interceptors are hardly inferior to asm. They have an instant teleport, can be buffed by We Are The Hammer to take less damage and move faster, and can perform two jumps with just their base energy pool. They also do higher dps while having the same health as asm. They only get better in t2, with the Justicar giving furious intervention, and Nemesis focus giving increased health and damage. The only thing I'd like to see changed is the Krak grenade either become a Melta bomb, or be given a shorter fuse. Also, interceptors are great for retreat killing. They're obviously no banshees, and they're not going to chase you back to base, but they can wipe a low health unit if they get in retreat path. How is it not a good option to jump after a retreating unit if given the opportunity to wipe a squad, especially when I've won the engagement and forced off his army or caught him out of position with a unit?

interceptors are pretty much the heavy infantry equivalent of storm boys, over priced and a little weak in t1 where their jump doesnt have the disruptive secondary effect. That effect makes them and the lack of it breaks them. My gripe with them is exclusively in t1. I would prefer if some of the req in their initial cost was moved to some of their upgrades. because in t1 they are not good enough to be more expensive than asm.

again with enough investment they become a great unit. .... with enough investment.

You have trouble with IG as GK? Get grenade launchers on the IST for disruption and splash damage, an incinerator on the strike squad, and use either purgation to suppress (it under performs against melee (in my opinion), but it is useful in a ranged fight, especially if they're blobbed for both the splash damage and the suppression) or BC and Interceptors to tie up GM.

I already conceded that the grenades are a great tool against ig, However this is hampered by the fact that storm troopers bleed like non upgraded guardians , and they can only lose one member before they start losing grenade launchers.

Getting interceptors against FC? That's you're problem. You're using a melee squad to fight a commander who has a lot of really good melee counters. Get Purgation instead. They'll focus down the FC fast enough, especially in tier 2 with Pyscannons.

Perhaps how i described that match up was a bit inaccurate. I did not just mean vs fc , i meant that doing the same build the fc player will achieve drastically superior results for less investment.

again where are you getting the money for all this?


Look here is the thing , those units and build you are referring too , yes they would work if price was not an issue. But it is.

speaking just as a dude whos played over 1500 sm matches ( which i admit is not all that much). I can achieve similar results for much less power investment. And while I admit with enough investment these gk units do become quite formidable eventually , the sm units can achieve a satisfactory performance cheaper and faster , which is the inherent issue i was trying to point out.

It all leads to another issue:Gk tend to be very restrictive in terms of versatility.
You play gk, you have melee. You want ranged? you will need to pay an excessive amount of power to get that ranged fire power. you want speed? you will need to use the low dps power sword for that. you want av? well again you will have to over pay.

It leads to two situations , 1 you go melee and become easy to counter with conventional anti melee techniques ( knockback , stun spams and suppression abilities ( not setup units))

or you do go ranged and end up blowing upwards of 150 - 200 power on it.

[GG_Codex]

I recommend that we look into the Inquisitorial units for rounding out the admittedly thin roster of the Grey Knights. The various Assassins would be great additions to the game, and would further differentiate them from the vanilla SM faction.

[Orkfaeller]

I recommend that we look into the Inquisitorial units for rounding out the admittedly thin roster of the Grey Knights. The various Assassins would be great additions to the game, and would further differentiate them from the vanilla SM faction.

I'm sure Cealtos would add 'em at an isnstant... if there were any models for them.

[Black Relic]

Well i have looked at the grey knights a little however not too much. And id like to see something like this to bring grey knights to more "up to speed" since they seem lacking in almost all aspects other then melee effectiveness and abilities. I apologize in advance if i spell something wrong.

My first thought on the grey knights in the interceptors. I don't like the suppressing factor they could have if you could fire for 7 seconds and not be interrupted (irony). But I would like something similar to it. If instead they could maybe slow down the enemy like the bile spewer and lower the weapon fire rate maybe by like 25% that would be similar to suppression but could be more offensive and still have a defensive feel like other suppression squads. Lower the movement by maybe 3 or so. Would leave units closing in vulnerable for a while. Think about that for a bit a tell me if it sound ok or bad and give me your opinions on that.

Next still has to do with interceptors. I would like to take away their psycannon upgrade and replace it with a lascannon. And instead of the lascannon snaring it disables or lowers weapon the weapon cool down of the targeted vehicle. The two side members WOULD have pyscannons but of course that does less damage then what they do already. Whenever I face GK i feel that a vehicle spells the end for them (until t3) and some more hard AV might do it. Or this is how i feel.

GK feels like it has just melee units. That is great and all but i don't see much support in for them. The Rhino help (love how that thing is too) but i would like some more ranged squads. One way to help this out is the strike squad. I don't mind the special attacks but i would propose this. Lower melee skill by like 5 and increase their ranged output a bit. Maybe an artillery unit too since i cant remember if they have one other then grenades from troopers. Something similar to plasma devs if there is nothing out there.

GK lack vehicles in my opinion since i hardly see them. Or the vehicles they have don't seem that appealing. I would try out vinacator, or predator that can be upgraded to that similar the Blood Angels Baal predator. I have no idea on this one but would like to see some more vehicles in GK games.

I might sound inexperienced which i wont deny since i don't really play GK but here are my thoughts to better this race and make it and "everything tier" rather then being just a "t3 race" since I cant call them reliable until t3. Except for purifiers, damn they strong.

[crazyman64335]

i do play GK and i do strongly agree on the vehicle thing. They're pathetic in this regard. A rhino (which requires tremendous amounts of unnecessary amounts of micro) the Dread which is a solid vehicle and the Land Raider. I really feel like GK need a Tank in t3 to really mix things up when they get there, because their cheapest unit in T3 is the terminator which is 650 and 100?

As for the purgations i wouldn't personally mind a little splash suppression. Whenever 2 squads (in the case i'm thinking of a painboy and sluggas) the sluggas get suppressed and the painboy (who is standing RIGHT NEXT TO THEM)

Regardless of that i just feel they need like 1 or 2 more units, and they'll be a complete race, feel free to disagree or agree.