Nids VS turrets and structures (especially in tier 1) ideas

[Superhooper01]

OK guys something that has always bugged me is that nid's have problem's dealing with turrets and relays etc in tier 1. Most people say flank and gens go down fine but lets be honest if a player has a dev or 2 devs covering the turret it stops tunnels and rav's from destroying it as the nid's are shredded in the kill zone. The fact that nid's have no flamers and little in the department in ranged damage to structures continues into tier 2 with zoans doing very little damage and seeing as venom brood's get suppressed unless they flank means having to commit melee forces to dealing with turrets etc.

My 1st idea was to simply increase the rav's devourer's damage to structures but they would still get suppressed and unless flanking the turret would still bleed etc. The bard strangler on the warriors could do more damage to structures also seeing as it can fire when under suppression would allow a bit more damage to be dealt on turrets and relays.

I asked torpid and he said that spore mines could do perhaps 60 percent more damage to structures. This would allow spore mines to be used in all tiers and also give them more use than just scarring off melee in tier 1 or clearing structures which the barb or zoan's could do. Seeing as spore mines cannot be suppressed could allow them to be send up against a turret and so long as 2 detonate could allow the rest of the swarm to finish off the turret the old fashion way.

I feel that the fact nid's need to flank to deal with turrets isn't fair and so im open to ideas but seeing as turrets protected by devs can stop a nid charge dead seems to be a bit unbalanced. We saw in the 2nd faction war game great sm players using a map to screw over nid's with fortification and devs covering the flank routes making things a nightmare especially with turret covering neutral power farms allowing gens to be built in tier 1.

See what u guys think anyway. ( yes yes i said nid a lot )

[Surprise Attack!]

I asked torpid and he said that spore mines could do perhaps 60 percent more damage to structures. This would allow spore mines to be used in all tiers and also give them more use than just scarring off melee in tier 1 or clearing structures which the barb or zoan's could do. Seeing as spore mines cannot be suppressed could allow them to be send up against a turret and so long as 2 detonate could allow the rest of the swarm to finish off the turret the old fashion way.

I like this idea.

I feel that the fact nid's need to flank to deal with turrets isn't fair and so im open to ideas but seeing as turrets protected by devs can stop a nid charge dead seems to be a bit unbalanced. We saw in the 2nd faction war game great sm players using a map to screw over nid's with fortification and devs covering the flank routes making things a nightmare especially with turret covering neutral power farms allowing gens to be built in tier 1.

But that was a 3v3. This is hardly an issue in 1v1s. To be fair, I feel that as a faction, they're pretty strong and to give them something like that would be akin to the melee resistance aura on Havocs at the moment(unnecessary and overpowered). The fact that they lack a quick way to deal with buildings is built into part of the faction's inherent balance, similarly to how Chaos has no transport or how IG has worse map control due to GMs repairing sents.

Using Faction War as evidence for the need of a change/buff isn't a good idea in my opinion.

edit: Realized my post is a bit confusing - I think the spore mines can do more damage, but giving them a hard counter to turrets is not really necessary.

[Superhooper01]

Yeah true was just trying to give some evidence but the point stays the same:p. The spore mine idea is pretty good i think at least.

[Ven]

i dunno about this. i know that nids can struggle with garrisons unless they commit to a barbed strangler or get spore mines.

If you're talking about their weaponry to take down generators etc i would have to disagree; eldar dont have any "flame" weapons in T1 to burn down generators, and some races like chaos have to commit to buying a whole new unit for the flame damage type. im not sure what the problem is.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Yeah true was just trying to give some evidence but the point stays the same:p. The spore mine idea is pretty good i think at least.

If they don't get shot to bits 1st , Spores mine that can damage turret & bacon relay is reasonable suggestion :0.

[Cheekie Monkie]

1) Spore mine drop on a low hp garrison
2) Troll alpha strikes again!

Honestly speaking though, it does sound like a good idea, though I'm not sure how much damage it should do to prevent It from being too powerful.

Capillary tower drop into spore mines on a gen farm, for example?

[Torpid]

Generators and turrets are actually different armour types so it isn't necessary for spore mines to take out gens in a couple of explosions just because they can do so vs turrets.

The turrets are the bigger problem imo. Tyranids suffer tremendously vs turrets. They don't get any wargear that negates suppression from a turret, they don't get grenades like eldar do nor do they get infiltration until T2, they don't get any ranged weapons wtih good modifiers vs turrets, their jump squads severely lack the dps necessary to deal with a turret efficiently and their ranged blobs lack the dps of something like orks/or IG so they can't reasonably split up and shoot down a turret either. T2 doesn't even solve it much either since venom broods have relatively short range and just get suppressed; zoanthropes damage modifier vs turrets is lackluster and the tyrant guard is SHI so still takes reasonable damage from turrets when closing in for the kill - not to mention everything else in t1 that guards them.

Spore mines are a nice choice to buff to kill turrets since unlike BSWB and ravs they don't have much value after the first few engagements vs the turret races (and arguably all races). Making BSWB or ravs kill turrets would be too strong I think nd it would definitely be OP in 1v1 where realistically nids don't even have a turret problem due to their speed. In 3v3 however due to the lane nature of it turrets are an issue and I think spore mines would be a nice way to counter them. It's not just instant death like 2grenades on an IG las-turret. It is possible to focus them down, but if the tyranid plays it right he can use burrow/bswb to negate enemy ranged units from being able to shoot them down while he crippling poisons the enemy melee meanwhile the spore mines get in amongst the turret and blow it up in 2 explosions, or 1 explosion supplemented by ranged fire. I don't conceive that being too OP and I do think it is unfair how bad nids are vs turrets atm.

[saltychipmunk]

its not that raveners lack the dps , its that raveners are designed to operate under the defensive bonuses of synapse and have less durability and a weaker jump because of it

I never understood how anyone at relic would think a unit whose main ability is to jump really really far ahead ones army to disrupt shit , but needs synapse to do well, would function in a nid army with tiny synapse range.

i think a good start would be to buff the ravener hp by 25% so that they can last more than a quarter second before getting ganked.

spore mines are a nifty idea but i think a more permanent counter needs to be available even if it is a soft counter, maybe.

[Torpid]

its not that raveners lack the dps , its that raveners are designed to operate under the defensive bonuses of synapse and have less durability and a weaker jump because of it

I never understood how anyone at relic would think a unit whose main ability is to jump really really far ahead ones army to disrupt shit , but needs synapse to do well, would function in a nid army with tiny synapse range.

i think a good start would be to buff the ravener hp by 25% so that they can last more than a quarter second before getting ganked.

spore mines are a nifty idea but i think a more permanent counter needs to be available even if it is a soft counter, maybe.

No way man. Stormboyz are no more durable than raveners (both are 900hp) but they deal with turrets a lot better because of their far greater dps - We're talking 60dps vs 150dps...

But ravs aren't by any means UP. They're OP atm!!! OMG have you seen them in 1v1? They're insane. Just burrow behind the enemy set-up team while you hero/horms charge in from a flank and your terms push from the front. It's so easy to wipe set-up teams and all their army just gets thrown about and his composition wrecked. Meanwhile they can just shoot with their 66dps ranged damage squad that fires in bursts in t1 if they don't feel safe enough to burrow.

This is precisely why buffed barbed strangler warriors or raveners is an inappropriate way of allowing nids to deal with this problem. This problem is non-existent in 1v1 and those squads are balanced and possibly op in 1v1. They definitely do not need buffs.

[saltychipmunk]

well that is why i suggested hp buff , rather than a damage buff for raveners , besides burrow is an extra upgrade on top of their buy in cost, and 1vs 1 is already a distinctively unfriendly environment for set up units on account of having your detectors often separated from your core army and the abundances of flanking options.

and the devourers are an even larger power cost, plus i found the best counter against nids is to not have suppression teams but rather have units capable of rapidly crushing the warriors specifically because setup teams can be crush by raveners.

[Torpid]

I meant the burrow strike from t1 as it does serious knockback. And not going suppress vs nids in T1 is extremely sub- optimal. Suppression is the only thing they cannot counter straight up outside of storms+painboy. Between hormagaunts insane dps ratio and the BSWB it is not really possible to beat them with things like jump squads or ranged blobs respectively and now snipers don't even work since they won't kill termagants in one shot if they have their upgrade.

A hp buff is still a buff to ravs that they do not need.

[saltychipmunk]

well then this is a situation where i cant really comment because i make heavy use of the presence of a power weapon on a commander in conjunction with jump units , to counter such a strategy.

I usually curb stomp the devourer rav with BSWB combo by jumping on the ranged blob aggressively before crippling toxin is engaged and then pop battle cry with power sword and or throw a frag into the freshly knocked back warriors with the scouts.

or i do lead by example on a commissar , plus execute catachans + smoke nade. usually makes for some good mayhem..


usually a warrior pops almost instantly for me. especially given how generous the power investment is for this kind of match up.


but alas i don't actually like using setup units

[Atlas]

Saying no to the spore buff. Let the nids have a weakness bros