Melta dreadnought

[Sub_Zero]

Does anyone think that now when melee-resistant walkers are present we should consider changing this variant of the SM dreadnought?

To me it has always seemed like a very situational upgrade. Namely when you needed to finish off the opposing walker having forced it to retreat. In this instance the upgrade pays off right away. Or it is also wise to purchase it (neither the assault cannon, nor the melee option are good at it) when you have to deal with a mobile vehicle like a transport or a tank. But I wouldn't say that this kind of scenario is ideal due to the short range of the multi-melta and the low speed of the dreadnought. And it costs you a fortune just to buy a multi-melta dread with the intention to destroy a transport. Snaring AV-teams will stop this thing from getting close enough to make a single shot. Against a tank things go even worse for a melta-dreadnought. If you misjudge and get in the pursue it may end for your vehicle really bad since it has to get close to inflict any real damage.

The melta-dreadnought doesn't have a clear purpose. It cannot be considered an effective AV-option due to the mentioned factors above (range and speed). And it really isn't anything impressive against infantry. Sure one shot kills are good but then again you expose it to threats more and all because of the named above factors. A dreadnought with an assault cannon is your anti-infantry option. So IMO this thing lacks something at the moment.

Here are my propositions:
Give it an ability (something that would help this variant fare better against heavy melee options)
or
Enhance its melee capabilities - it can be either full 100 dps melee claw or leave the DPS unchanged and instead give it the usual splash of a melee-oriented variant
Why? Because it would be nice to soften up targets you chase after before landing a killing shot. This thing is all about being aggressive. In its current state it is too vulnerable to any heavy melee option and you can't really say that this is a ranged version of a vehicle. Just like scouts aren't really a ranged unit even though they fire from distance. But unlike the melta dreadnought they have a clear purpose and an ability that helps them fulfill it.

[Sub_Zero]

Excuse me, mate... But it isn't like I haven't played this game enough. I can make any thing work in this game, I am very experienced. But even if something works alright doesn't mean that it is balanced. Here I just brought up the problems I see in this very upgrade. There can always be discussions even on something that is considered as balanced.

[egewithin]

Hey just a quick one melta dread got great purpose as it is, no need to change nothing. If play it right can be very! Dangerous as AV or counter to any heavy units. So good luck keep on playing, and find the way to use a melta dread.

Someone gotta learn who is the boss here I think.

[Tiptoes]

I imagine this is so situational as to be irrelevant for a larger balance discussion, but I watched a game Indrid cast a while back and was very impressed with the melta dreadnought's performance there. When properly supported, it severely screwed up tyranids. The high burst kill capability meant it could pop synapse creatures quickly, keeping the swarms disrupted.

I tried for a while to find the game, but I'm not having any luck. It was a 1v1, SM vs. Tyranid, on Fedrid's Folly, if that helps.

[Sturnn]

No point to discuss it further. He said melta works fine

[appiah4]

I also think the Melta dreadnought works fine; it really doesn't need anything. It very reliably inflicts bleed (and generates Red) as well as being very good at supporting infantry units vs T2 walker/transport rushes. If anything, maybe a T3 upgrade option to a TL Lascannon for a further cost would be nice to keep it more relevant late game, but it's usually not really that necessery if you managed to level the tinman a bit by then - which you easily can, even by just one-shotting infantry models.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Irrelevant ,but I think its a mistake for removing Melta-gun upgrade for GK dread, least keep it as a viable weapon upgrade,not removed it ...hmph.

[Cyris]

I agree with OP, I think the melta Dread stinks. The best way I've found to use it as kind of a mid-range baby-sitter to your infantry blob. You don't wanna go chasing or initiating too deep with it, but it stands just in front of your guys and bleeds anything nearby (great single entity spike damage!), forces melee if enemy comes in, and can threaten/kill a transport if you snare it with las/asm.

However, the melee form pretty much does this as well without spending on the upgrade. And it keeps it's stun / inspiration / MELEE RESIST. I think in a large number of scenarios, the melta ends up as down-grade.

That all said, I don't think there is much need for change. The dread is fine, and SM have solid AV already. However, I always urge less experienced players to not buy it. For it's cost (equal to AC) it could safely be buffed without being OP in any way.

[Toilailee]

Excuse me, mate... But it isn't like I haven't played this game enough. I can make any thing work in this game, I am very experienced.

=D

(that's what she said?)

[Ven]

Hey just a quick one melta dread got great purpose as it is, no need to change nothing. If play it right can be very! Dangerous as AV or counter to any heavy units. So good luck keep on playing, and find the way to use a melta dread.

this is a balance topic, not a "get gud" topic. please refrain for this kind of thing, it isn't very helpful.

Sub_zero and i very rarely see eye to eye on a lot of things, however Sub_Zero has some very valid points about the melta dread. it used to be a niche yet powerful upgrade in the past, then melee walkers, which the SM ones start as, got melee resistance. this basically made the melta dread obsolite due to its short range, in most cases its best to just keep it melee so melee_heavy squads do less damage to it and you're not spending unnecessarily, and as cyris pointed out the melee variant, which is what comes out of the gate has a stun/knockback ability and insipration on top of all this, all for LESS than the melta dread.

i agree that an ability of some kind should be added. i seem to remember there being an ability for Thule in the campaign of DOW2:CR where he gets a "Melta Assault"(?) i never actually got around to using it as i was playing a corruption campaign at the time, but it sounds awesome and the animations are there, surely? perhaps we could adapt this in some way.

HOWEVER im not sure what aforementioned ability would be, does this ability fill something SM is missing? i wouldn't be so sure as SM is not missing much. perhaps a small aoe snare that does flame damage over time? something like that? SM is lacking in snares for infantry in some occasions but thats all i could think of on the spot..

[Dalakh]

It was brought up previously that the melta dread was OP because of it's amazing AV/bleeding/almost no downsides. Now the only change is that you give up melee resist. This seems fair to me, the melta dread is still scary but you can't just pick it over melee dread blindly. I like it.

[Vapor]

I could see the upgrade granting a small health buff, since the melta dread generally needs to be up close to do damage and it doesn't have melee resist like the default dread. Other than that I don't think it needs other changes, it has good utility. No need for any kind of melee resist, that should be reserved for melee walkers really.

[Cyris]

Now the only change is that you give up melee resist.

Opinion on balance aside, this is simply not true . Here are the list of what you lose:
Melee Resist (-40% incoming melee damage)
Melee Splash Damage (Damage numbers not listed in codex)
Melee damage reduced by 25% (150 - 110)
Wrist flamer
Emperors Fist
Inspiration on kill (I'm not certain on this one, I seem to recall a patch note in the past, but the codex currently says no)

Rhetorical question:
If this guy started in melta form for his current price, and had to pay 100/30 to swap the melta out for the 6 upgrades listed above, would you pay it?

[Torpid]

I imagine this is so situational as to be irrelevant for a larger balance discussion, but I watched a game Indrid cast a while back and was very impressed with the melta dreadnought's performance there. When properly supported, it severely screwed up tyranids. The high burst kill capability meant it could pop synapse creatures quickly, keeping the swarms disrupted.

I tried for a while to find the game, but I'm not having any luck. It was a 1v1, SM vs. Tyranid, on Fedrid's Folly, if that helps.

Not the game you're referencing but the same thing happens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRI8oyjk5IQ

Basically it's a thing that occurs in that MU specifically and is amplified by the map tremendously. It certainly isn't good evidence whatsoever that more holistically the melta dread is performing well.

Personally this topic dumbfounds me. I don't feel experienced enough with the melta dread to speak about its state of balance further so I shan't.

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

Just give it the melta sweep like it has in the campaign

[Dalakh]

@Cyris Yes I didn't list those because they were already applied before the melee resist change. What I meant change from then is that you lose melee resist too.

[egewithin]

Now the only change is that you give up melee resist.

Opinion on balance aside, this is simply not true . Here are the list of what you lose:
Melee Resist (-40% incoming melee damage)
Melee Splash Damage (Damage numbers not listed in codex)
Melee damage reduced by 25% (150 - 110)
Wrist flamer
Emperors Fist
Inspiration on kill (I'm not certain on this one, I seem to recall a patch note in the past, but the codex currently says no)

Rhetorical question:
If this guy started in melta form for his current price, and had to pay 100/30 to swap the melta out for the 6 upgrades listed above, would you pay it?

You don't loose the flamer.

[lolzarz]

Either give health upgrade to dreadnought like predator gets or rename the multi-melta upgrade Ironclad Dreadnought and give health with the melta. No point in giving bonuses to the weapon itself since the problem is survivability and not weapon performance.

[egewithin]

Either give health upgrade to dreadnought like predator gets or rename the multi-melta upgrade Ironclad Dreadnought and give health with the melta. No point in giving bonuses to the weapon itself since the problem is survivability and not weapon performance.

We already have dark age of tec. for health buff.

[lolzarz]

Either give health upgrade to dreadnought like predator gets or rename the multi-melta upgrade Ironclad Dreadnought and give health with the melta. No point in giving bonuses to the weapon itself since the problem is survivability and not weapon performance.

We already have dark age of tec. for health buff.

Well, I guess so. Since Sub_Zero thinks the multi-melta dreadnought is too vulnerable to heavy melee units, I'm retaining the Ironclad Dreadnought, but instead of health upgrade (concerns of it becoming invincible due to stacking with Dark Age of Technology) give it the frag assault that Land Raiders have, except maybe a bit weaker.

[Forestradio]

Opinion on balance aside, this is simply not true . Here are the list of what you lose:
Melee Resist (-40% incoming melee damage)
Melee Splash Damage (Damage numbers not listed in codex)
Melee damage reduced by 25% (150 - 110)
Wrist flamer
Emperors Fist
Inspiration on kill (I'm not certain on this one, I seem to recall a patch note in the past, but the codex currently says no)

Splash damage is 40 heavy melee per hit. Space Marine Dreadnoughts inspire on every kill, regardless of whether or not they are equipped with a ranged weapon.

You don't loose the flamer.

[Cyris]

Re: Inspiration on kill.

The codex states that both ranged weapons remove inspiration on kill.

In this clip Torpid posted, we can clearly see the melta on-shot termas, and not give inspiration: https://youtu.be/ZRI8oyjk5IQ?t=1094

If it does retain inspiration, perhaps it is only on melee kills? I'm not at my gaming machine right now, can't check.

Also in that clip, we clearly can see no flamer on the melta dread.

[Forestradio]

RIf it does retain inspiration, perhaps it is only on melee kills? I'm not at my gaming machine right now, can't check.

Indeed it is only on melee kill, apologies for being unclear.

[egewithin]

Sorry about wrong infon about flamer.

[Sub_Zero]

Opinion on balance aside, this is simply not true . Here are the list of what you lose:
Melee Resist (-40% incoming melee damage)
Melee Splash Damage (Damage numbers not listed in codex)
Melee damage reduced by 25% (150 - 110)
Wrist flamer
Emperors Fist
Inspiration on kill (I'm not certain on this one, I seem to recall a patch note in the past, but the codex currently says no)

Rhetorical question:
If this guy started in melta form for his current price, and had to pay 100/30 to swap the melta out for the 6 upgrades listed above, would you pay it?

Actually your post made me think that this whole thing could be redesigned! The space marine dreadnought could start with the melta and has his melee state as an upgrade.

Just give it the melta sweep like it has in the campaign

Sounds interesting. But I didn't see it. Could you explain how it works?

[Toilailee]

Actually your post made me think that this whole thing could be redesigned! The space marine dreadnought could start with the melta and has his melee state as an upgrade.

That would be a HUGE buff tho, I always thought it was op when the gk dread started with melta. It basically makes the dreadnought way more effective out of the gate when there usually isn't enough av on the field yet, while retaining the ability to upgrade to melee to counter heavy melee infantry, which is supposed to be a counter to melta dread.

[Cyris]

/agree Toil Melta out of the gate, with the option to go melee after, was very strong. This is part of why the SM melta feels so much like a downgrade you have to pay for. Going from melee to melta (without any special abilities) doesn't have the same impact.

Random thought on this - remove frenzied barrage from t-dread, and give the melta dread an ability! Tdread would still be a great pick, and melta dread would get more play! I think an ability that was only good against vehicles and/or super heavy infantry could be cool.

Anyway, like I said before I think the melta dread is weak (and increeeedibly niche), but in the context of SM it doesn't really need a buff. Though if it were to get buffed, I don't think there would be any net power increase for SM, but it might open up a different build path.

[Sub_Zero]

Yes, very funnily enough the Tzeentch dread is supremely effective at taking out other vehicles and IS more than decent at dealing with infantry due to the ability and multiple missiles that eventually hit something. I cannot see how the multi-melta dreadnought is cool as it is, definitely needs an ability of some sort. There are probably two dreadnoughts in the game that could use an ability. This one and the one with the inferno cannon from the GK's roster. Without that they don't feel right.

[Tiptoes]

Not the game you're referencing but the same thing happens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRI8oyjk5IQ

Actually, yeah, that is the game I was thinking of. I mostly watch Indrid so I just assumed that's who it was, sorry!

[appiah4]

MM Dreadnoughts also work incredibly well in pairs..