GK Feedback!

[Cyris]

I started writing this over the weekend and damn did it get long. I wanted to finish it all before posting, but my schedule is looking real busy for the next week. So here is draft 1. Enjoy!


Intro
GK have come a long way in ELITE. I mained them when they first came out, but got fed up with their abysmal 1v1 susceptibility to T2 vehicles and T3 tank spam. I started playing them again about a month back and despite a few bumps, have been very much enjoying them. I feel myself getting to the end of my time playing them every match, so figured I should write out my thoughts on them.

Some quick notes on where I come from: I'm a game designer by trade and have played DoW on and off since initial release, primarily 1v1. I consider my skill level mid-high, have mained each race at least once in ELITE and for the last year I have played Random in all my matches. After finishing my circuit of all the races, I found I couldn't pick a favorite, so just stick to Random! As such, I like to think I'm fairly impartial on balance - I don't really have a pet race I want to be best. I like ELITE best when everyone to have strengths and weaknesses, enough OP combos to counter other races OP combos, but not anything that is unreasonable. My game designer background also makes me focus on visual/audio feedback and responsiveness, so you'll see some of that here too. Enjoy!

Overall
GK come out of the gate very strong. Strikes and IST are wonderfully strong in their starting state as is the BC, and Purgation and Rhinos are solid picks in T1.5. Interceptors are a low point in the early roster, but overall I have the tools and options to deal with anything I see in T1. T2 doesn't go as well, as the aforementioned SS and IST don't scale terribly well, and I find there is a big log-jam on wanting to make my T1 squads T2 viable with upgrades, and wanting to pick up T2 squads. The T2 squads are also not fantastic out of the box and most require upgrades to really work. As such, the longer I spend in T2, the weaker I feel, as other races tend to field better toys for cheaper. This is not intricately bad, since following a strong T1 with a weaker T2 is fine. T3 has the ever potent Terminator spam, but the rec/power costs are quite high, so I find I can only go T3 if I'm winning by a good amount or it's a team game (where I've learned it's best to just ignore T2). Unfortunately this means that unless I had an amazing T1, I don't get out of T2 against even skilled opponents, and slip further behind with a over-price under-preforming T2 army.

My take aways from this is that I'd like to see T2 economy adjusted a bit, some T2 squads/upgrades buffed and some T1 nerfs. I do not have very robust opinions of T3, since in my experience it's mostly just to troll, or in the very differently balanced team games (see Torpids T3 economy thread - I absolutely do this with GK, but I think they would be trash in team games if they couldn't.) My brief thoughts are that T3 needs a relatively cheap unit, and/or a few desirable T3 upgrades for T1/2 squads.

Overall, I feel happy playing GK that I have the tools to deal with many situations. There are definitely some weaknesses (single entity damage, snare relies on shitty Int, T2 melee counters are not fantastic, T2 eco) but I do not feel gimped.

Brother-Captain
I really like the design on this commander. In T1 his job is to tie things up and have a lot of health. That's pretty much it! And it works just fine. Come T2 he gets to pick what kind of direction he'll go in, more killy or supporty. My only problem with him is that he has a high number of wargears I no longer purchase.

T1 - Tie up ranged squads, face check setup teams, We Are The Hammer as many squads as you can
Blessed Agies - I hear a lot of people scream NERF, but I don't see it. When I compare him with this wargear to other tanky melee commanders, it seems fine. Consider the ranged model peeling and garrison counter of the Combi-flamer (with KTW for backup), the crazy tanking of Iron Halo / Warp Field or the killy power of Bang Bang. BC with this armor just does more of what he already does - tie stuff up while inflicting minimal damage. If anything needs to change, I'd hit the bonus HP, making him a little worse at face-checking setup teams, but reward him in longer fights where the regen means more. I always get this armor not because I think it's OP, but because it gives you what you need (a BC that can tie lots up) when you need it (T1). Perhaps I'm countering myself with this logic, cause I don't like "mandatory" upgrades, but I think this is more a problem of his other armors being lack-luster.

Nemesis Force Sword - I'd like to like this upgrade, but I don't. The amount it increases melee damage by is small, and the amount it increases We Are The Hammer by is small. It's prolly balanced and fine, but it doesn't make enough impact for me to want to buy in T1, especialy since the BC feels like he needs one of his T2 weapons to funtion properly. I'd rather invest in the Agies and call it a day, save money for other squads or upgrades. It's nice with double purgation rushdown though!

Mantle Of Terra - This used to be beast with instant Int teleport in T2, now it's just so-so. And since it's in direct comparison to Agies, it's hard to pick. Reminds me of TM's Bionics before it had regen or the Power Axe. Yes, it helped in certain situations, but Artificers helped ALL THE TIME. Terra it counters some melee squads who need to use abilities. I wish there were a few more GK squads who had energy instead of CD only abilities, or who had cooldowns low enough that this helped a lot (right now it's Int and Libby only) or toggles - all of which would appreciate the aura more. All in all, a fine wargear that I want to experiment with more, but I will almost never buy it because it doesn't help as much as agies, and is 5 more power. For instance, it was a lot better when IST had their toggle plasma gun ability! Imagine purgation with astral aim as a toggle. Would go great with this too!

Unending Purge - One of the 2 good accessories, I pick up purge when doing a very heavy T1. A unique and cool wargear option, I like how it encourages different ways to play, or be countered.

Purified Blades - One of the 2 bad accessories This is trying to do too many differnt things, and ends up doing nothing. Who do I build it against? T1 melee squads don't dare fight the BC already, unless he's totaly isolated and this alone won't save him. T2 it gets a bit better against some dedicated melee, but with the various T2 weapons the BC already would love if something tried to melee him! T3 with super melee, the 15% chance is just not significant when 4 Nobs are beating your face in, and the 5 damage of cleave is pitifully low by then. I think this should be strongly re-focused at a specific role or use. Here are some thoughts!
- Go back to and increase the old energy burn, it countered Energy Shield commanders better, giving it a real niche.
- Instead of %chance for enemies to be knocked down, have it grant the BC +10 melee skill!
- Greatly increase the cleave damage and remove the knockdown (I think this would be ok, since it's mutually exclusive to the speed upgrade of unending or the teleporter)
- Make the passive knockdown an active ability - For the next 10s, 100% of melee attackers knock them selves down (maybe 50%?).

T2 - Time to pick a weapon! (Hint: the correct answer is Halberd)
Nemesis Force Halberd - Relatively low cost for high damage and a bit of cleave. This is almost always my choice these days. I feel the BC lacks the FC's speed or CL/HT/WB durability/regen/tricks that allow them to really gain intense benefits from such weapons. He spends so much time running after squads that are faster then him, that I can't justify spending 50 power on a weapon when he is usually hitting with his wrist bolter. The Halberd gives him enough of a punch that squads can't just sit around and take his hits, and that's good enough.

Nemesis Daemon Hammer - This used to be my goto weapon, and an auto-purchase against dedicated melee. Then I noticed good players just ran past the BC and beat up my army. Even if I land the knockdown skill, it doesn't stun, so they tend to stand up and keep rushing down my horrifies IST Combos great with teleporter for initiation, but BC is often running back to base after this, and it means no Unending Purge for the followup regen (though the "buy both and swap" trick does work!) Grenade launchers better for the ranged knockdown. Overall, an expense I can skip.

Warding Staff - Much like the Hammer, this is a decent weapon that doesn't do quite enough to justify the cost. Warding is sweet, but 10s duration and it's range make it hard to line up right. Again, too much cost for the impact, so I skip it. I don;t like many of the targets for it either - Int suck and Purifiers are niche.

Nemesis Vortex - ...is not Agies, so I never buy it. It's also very micro intensive and has a short range, so by T2 I'm busy with a lot of other abilities, so can't baby-sit this.

Teleporter Pack - Yep, the other good accessory. Counter setup hard, initiate well, back out safely. This is as nuts as you think it is. It could stand some nerfs to cost, CD or range. I'm not sure I like that it exists even and wouldn't mind it going away. A teleporting unsupressable commander seems wrong somehow, especially when he was WATH for initiation. Part of me wonders if this going away would make space for other wargear to get stronger, as it's presence I think is a good argument against some of the other buffs I'd like to see. In any case, get this if you don't need more regen, since the other 2 upgrades are bad. Care in point...

Psychic Lash - On paper this is amazing, but in practice not so much. It reads like flesh-hook... but it bugs out half the time, has a short range and is on a commander who can't really sneak into clutch positions. I have massively regretted purchasing this upgrade, even against things it supposedly counters - T2 support sub-commanders. The problem with it is it's cast time + range + failure case. If you cast it on an enemy at long range, and they walk away from you, the spell will go off, go on CD and spend energy, and do nothing. This is like the old ASM melta bug, which was fixed a while ago, or the FC's FoS. This badly needs the same fix! Reduce the range if need be, but get it to a non-buggy state first.

T3 - Not much here!
Holy Armor of Titan - Again, good on paper, less great in practice. Main problem is that Energy cost on an Energy restore skill is super awkward! Just change this to a free skill, and change the energy restore from "Fill you" to "+80" or something. It is super frustrating to teleport into a crowd of enemies then click Immortal... but it doesn't work cause you have 55 energy. Yes, you can play around this by counting your energy, but to me this is an unnecessary skill check for an ability that should make you feel awesome. Also, immortal for 6s is not terribly desirable on the BC cause of his innate tankyness, though the CDR is amazing (especialy if you took one of the T2 weapons that I advised against!) I skip this cause if I'm T3, the only thing worth saving for is Termies. And I already have Agies.


To do:
Spell check / grammar
Units
Caeltos rummors
My fantasy changelist

[Dark Riku]

I'd like to share some thoughts here because certain things strike me as odd.

T2 melee counters are not fantastic

The (purgation ability), melee dread and libby bubble seem good to me
Could you elaborate a bit more on what it is you find bad about the melee counters?

Nemesis Force Sword

It's a 33% damage increase. The amount it increase We Are The Hammer with is big. From 15 to 25%. That's a 66% increase.
Removing 1/4th of the damage you'd normally take is not something I would consider insignificant.
(Speed increase also goes from 1 to 1.5)

Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Squads will be disrupted for a long time though since it does a pretty far knockback.
I'd agree that it probably is a bit too expensive for what it does.

Holy Armor of Titan

It's kind of the same as spirit stones in energy regard. You need to open with this ability, not end with it ^^ Just fine as is imo.
The thing that keeps it from being "good/meta" is the purchase cost I think.

[Ven]

T2 melee counters are not fantastic

Just saying, GK T2 anti-melee is the best T2 anti melee in the game.

most of the BC weapons, especially the hammer.
melee dread, it has 2 abilities for anti-melee
libby has sancturary, also good at backing stuff up with might of titan which increases melee skill, which you might consider a soft melee counter depending on your level and your enemies unit levels.
purifiers w/ justicar, the energy field does no friendly fire so you can just stick it at their feet and win any melee battle outright. the justicar also has the same tracking, 360 knockback the FC TH has, use might of titan/ mind blades to increase his melee skill and he'll be knocking stuff over for days.
Strike squad enegry burst drains energy and snares, its basically the best jump squad counter you could ever hope for, it also counters bloodletters to a T.
T2 interceptors due to their disruption on teleport, and dont forget the grenade that suppresses. THIS IS SUPPLEMENTARY ANTI-MELEE, 20 POWER FOR GRENADES THAT SAP ENERGY AND SUPRESSES WHILE NOT ACTUALLY COSTING ENERGY JUST SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD DEAL TO ME IF YOU HAD THE SQUAD ALREADY ON THE FIELD, VERY SORRY MY LORD FOREST RADIO FOR UPSETTING YOU

having listed all this, can you still say GK T2 anti melee is not great?

[Forestradio]

And since it's in direct comparison to Aegis, it's hard to pick.

is not Aegis, so I never buy it.

And I already have Aegis.

A recurring theme ^^

[Torpid]

T2 melee counters are not fantastic

The (purgation ability), melee dread and libby bubble seem good to me
Could you elaborate a bit more on what it is you find bad about the melee counters?

You also forgot to mention purifiers which wreck any other T2 melee squad apart from genestealers yet they do more AV damage than genestealers and have a very long range melee charge and a tracking special. They're a really good squad for countering melee. In fact that seems to be their very purpose as a squad. They of course have the light AV because GK frankly need it. They are not nids. Nid genes come out WAY earlier than purifiers. That's the difference but really the units serve a similar function. Melee domination. Although the purifiers do also have a very special synergy with psychic lash courtesy of that melee charge and their low models which means generally they all can get a smack in on lashed units.

There's also the heavy bolter rhino. That counters melee.

And put frankly every single variant of the GK dread counters melee really. The melee one is terrifying against it though. Terrifying on the level of a khorne dread.

Nemesis Force Sword

It's a 33% damage increase. The amount it increase We Are The Hammer with is big. From 15 to 25%. That's a 66% increase.
Removing 1/4th of the damage you'd normally take is not something I would consider insignificant.
(Speed increase also goes from 1 to 1.5)

I agree. This weapon is actually really strong. It punishes foes who try to win prolonged fights against you when you give your entire army such a huge buff and give your BC even more damage to constantly bleed your foe.

Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Squads will be disrupted for a long time though since it does a pretty far knockback.
I'd agree that it probably is a bit too expensive for what it does.

I just want to say don't forget that this thing does fairly solid damage upon swing - 40 in radius 10. It can burn a chunk of hp off the higher model squads and combined with the teleport can be quite nasty. It really shouldn't be as good as the blood maul anyway since the CL can't teleport and isn't even as tanky as the damn BC. I think it's fine how it is. Maybe there's an internal balance issue but I don't think it's because the hammer is too weak, I think it's because the halberd got over-buffed.

Holy armour is a bit too expensive.

[lolzarz]

And put frankly every single variant of the GK dread counters melee really. The melee one is terrifying against it though. Terrifying on the level of a khorne dread.

I get how the melee dreadnought is basically the last word in anti-infantry melee combat and a flamethrower is a flamethrower, but how do the other ones help? Especially the plasma cannon; I'm not sure how an artillery piece is meant to aid against melee squads.

Not related, but when would you recommend actually buying the grenade launcher on the dreadnought? It doesn't sound like it does a whole lot that either the flamethrower or the plasma cannon won't do.

[Torpid]

It does great splash and knockback. If something just charges from the front it knocks them back and you can just focus them down from range with the rest of your squads. If they flank you it's less effective because you have to attack ground to make sure you don't hit your own squads but it's still brutally effective, especially if you have some of your melee to follow up the knockback it does with. The default bolter eventually supresses, it's not that good, but it's at least a soft counter when you consider it is decent in melee anyway due to its specials. The flamer has higher dps than the bolter and it suppresses faster, downside being it not as good vs heroes (which is something GK struggles vs more than melee squads) and it has less range.

The grenade launcher should never really be a priority upgrade as that isn't its job. Its job is clearly more supplementary, much like eternal war on CSM. It costs too much power for what it does to get it as a priority upgrade. Generally it's just a nice bonus to get while teching T3 or even later after you are otherwise satisfied with your composition. Vast majority of the time getting an upgrade on my IST, SS or BC will be far more impactful than the GL on the GK dread.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

GK still needs more tweaks & adjustments
GK melee dread needs to be more like Ven dread,its dps/dph is unsatisfactory atm,same as SM dread .... TL lib needs an energy boast or a 3rd upgrade considering he's immensely energy-intensive,he's need to be on par with SM lib energy reserves.
SS still misses a trait
Team games perspective- BC speed is horrendously slow at 4 ,srry even with Aegis,he's not able to adapt to every situation ,just a slow tanker tying shit up,90% of the time BC dies upon retreat especially from shees..
His speed needs to be compatible with HT/CL/WB at 4.5, i cannot stand his movement speed with that of a tortoise .

IST needs a HP buff overall In T2 with their Sgt, their the squishest T1 unit ingame as of now.

[Cheekie Monkie]

TL lib needs an energy boast or a 3rd upgrade considering he's immensely energy-intensive,he's need to be on par with SM lib energy reserves.

Unlike SM, GK libby can benefit from other sources of energy regen, such as energy burst and canticool.

His speed needs to be compatible with HT/CL/WB at 4.5, i cannot stand his movement speed with that of a tortoise .

That's why he has WATH, undending purge, power sword and teleport. How many more mobility tools do you need?

I'd support an IST scaling buff in T2 though. I wanted to suggest that IST's reinforce in 2's like GM in T2 with their sergeant upgrade, since it doesn't affect their sustainability and on field presence, merely their bleed. Still on the fence about this though, since they're out of the gate awesome in T1 for 210 req.

[Forestradio]

You also forgot to mention purifiers which wreck any other T2 melee squad apart from genestealers because genestealers are fuckballs OP

Fixed that for you

[Cheekie Monkie]

You also forgot to mention purifiers which wreck any other T2 melee squad apart from genestealers because genestealers are fuckballs OP

Fixed that for you

Did they get buffed in Elite or something?

Because I remembered somewhere sometime that people thought they sucked ass as QQ bleed QQ. Or it might be my memory.

[Ven]

You also forgot to mention purifiers which wreck any other T2 melee squad apart from genestealers because genestealers are fuckballs OP

Fixed that for you

Did they get buffed in Elite or something?

Because I remembered somewhere sometime that people thought they sucked ass as QQ bleed QQ. Or it might be my memory.

well as far as im aware synapse used to be massively OP in retail but genesteales wernt as good out of synapse. in elite its the other way around. atleast, thats what i heard, dont quote me on it.

[Dark Riku]

Because I remembered somewhere sometime that people thought they sucked ass as QQ bleed QQ. Or it might be my memory.

That's just people online for you, nothing has changed that drastically in order for them to be considered from useless to OP.

[Sub_Zero]

GK melee dread needs to be more like Ven dread,its dps/dph is unsatisfactory atm,same as SM dread ....

What kind of logic is that? The GK dread has more health and has an additional ability the value of which you just cannot underestimate. The venerable dreadnought is a unique T3 unit, no other dreadnought should surpass (hello, Khorne dread) it when it comes to melee strength.

TL lib needs an energy boast or a 3rd upgrade considering he's immensely energy-intensive,he's need to be on par with SM lib energy reserves.

Absolutely not. His abilities straight up enhance any unit's strenght whereas the SM librarian can only skillfully manipulate with units, his only ability which increases a unit's characteristics is beneficial only on specific targets. The GK librarian has the best anti-melee option in the game (only if it worked always reliably). If you ask me Space Marines need this thing more than Grey Knights. Not to mention he has 3 sources that can maintain his energy - strike squads, purifiers and the hero himself (a very strong source).

SS still misses a trait

The strongest in melee ranged unit (hello, ranged terminators) that effectively snares and damages any approaching on foot melee unit and then famously makes it think twice to engage like that again. And they do have an ability to give away energy. They are priceless at stopping jump units' frenzy and any other dependent on energy unit. I don't see how they miss a unique thing.

BC speed is horrendously slow at 4 ,srry even with Aegis,he's not able to adapt to every situation ,just a slow tanker tying shit up,90% of the time BC dies upon retreat especially from shees..

The opposite of my perspection. He is probably the toughest hero out there, certainly the best melee-tank in the game. Why his speed is even relevant? He gains a normal speed when he activates the ability, I am always able to do that in every fight. His Aegis is criminally underpriced. Plust he can teleport. Over 1000 hp that cannot be suppressed or knocked off the feet and equiped with something deadly in your face in a blink of an eye. Tell me how OP is that?

IST needs a HP buff overall In T2 with their Sgt, their the squishest T1 unit ingame as of now.

And this is the only thing that I doubt about. They are probably too fragile in T2 but seeing how every their weapon option and the ability that comes from the sergeant stop any unit from dealing damage makes me think that this fragility is justified. Be that a barrage that knocks everything off their feet or an overcharged plasma shot that suppresses everything too easily and gives no reduction to the unit's damage (like shoota boyz' ability)

[HandSome SoddiNg]

To Sub_zero: coz too lazy to reply with quotes

Ah Yes, Walker that deals the same amount of damage as a default starting SM dread with an additional 100 requisition & 30 energy is worth it.

You won't always get COA/Purifiers in all MU/All situations ,you must purchase Justicar on SS to supplement energy to TL . His HP regen is good though

SS used to have melee charge yer know, Tacs/Dire avengers/CSM w AC,etc they all have unique traits,i don't see why SS can't have one themselves.

If you played enough 2V2/3V3 ,you understand BC gets boned upon retreat if you just SLIGHTLY Overextend him in an engagement below 50% . Aegis armor won't save his hiny ass from overwhelming odds & DOT .

IST definitely needs that HP buff to fix their fragility,GK CC efficiency isn't as strong as SM . Else i be bleeding my overall composition due to IST Sgt,setting bxk upgrades & other important stuffs.
20 energy spent on GL for a singular IST with 500 hp ,suddenly, you unexpectedly lose em in a blink of an eye when you aren't focusing,i only get Sgt for detection ,not even melee counters


As it balances around 1v1 ,i rest my case.

[Dark Riku]

Ah Yes, Walker that deals the same amount of damage as a default starting SM dread with an additional 100 requisition & 30 energy is worth it.

It has said before somewhere already. But changing from ranged to melee is the preferably state since you can respond when they get heavy melee out. You're also forgetting the 2! abilities the GK melee dread gets.

SS used to have melee charge yer know, Tacs/Dire avengers/CSM w AC,etc they all have unique traits,i don't see why SS can't have one themselves.

Out of the gate, they do more rangded dps than tacs, more melee dps than CSM and can perform specials, they get crippling poison on steroids come T2, etc. What more do you want?

If you played enough 2V2/3V3 ,you understand BC gets boned upon retreat if you just SLIGHTLY Overextend him in an engagement below 50% .

That's just not true mate

[Vapor]

Sanctuary is pretty crazy anti melee when used properly.

[Tex]

Or used at all.

I agree with Cyris on a bunch of stuff, but I do not agree in any way that GK have trouble against melee at any point.

As far as my experience tells me, GK struggle when they can't dictate the pace of the game and build an ideal composition (same concept as playing against SM or Chaos tbh). Being forced into reactionary purchases really hurts GK (SM and Chaos as well due to lack of cheap specialist units) except in cases where the VA can be purchased as an ideal transition.
I also find that GK struggle quite hard against offensive commanders.

Here is a prime example:
When playing against orks, the ork player dictated the pace of tier 1 and didn't allow the GK player to gen bash. The ork player purchases a wartrukk and then follows that purchase with a deff dread in Tier 2 (or vice versa if he feels he is far enough ahead in tech). Either way, your powerfarm is going to be in immediate jeopardy and you will be forced into making purchases to defend it.
By being forced into buying a psycannon, and then upon seeing the deff dread, having to (likely) buy and upgrade a purgation squad (or do you gamble on the VA?), you have now spring boarded your opponent ahead on a cost vs cost basis, leaving yourself vulnerable because you haven't been able to flesh out your "anti-melee" package. An astute ork would at that point pass up on teching to T3, and purchase (and fully upgrade) stormboyz to make your life awful. Even if you manage to purchase purifiers, a dreadnaught, or a librarian, it is likely that the damage is already done because you didn't have your composition set up at the right time. I didn't even bother listing the rhino as a possible solution to this problem because having a wartrukk on the field means you never know how many orks are gonna hop out of that thing (and shootas can bring down a rhino very quickly).

This kind of thing follows in much of the same way against SM and Chaos.

For instance, Chaos players who find themselves behind and needing to respond to a vehicle, will instinctively purchase plague marines as a counter measure. That is a huge sunk cost as well as big upkeep. If the vehicle isn't destroyed or largely nullified within a few minutes, then the opposing player has won an invisible battle of sorts. Further (and following the theme), it keeps the chaos player futher away from purchasing something much more versatile and scary...

In the case of SM, it usually ends up being a huge sunk cost in power towards missiles, meltas, and/or an AV hero wargear. Every time I see a minimum 65 power sunk (and reduced AI capability from tacs) I just smile and start pumping infantry to overwhelm the units that will be so focused on killing my vehicle(s).

...

I had wanted to type a bit more, but its time for daddy duties

[saltychipmunk]

the ss have always been good in t1, its t2 that they kind of alot of their luster. The slow ability is nice. but its cool down is extremely long for a unit that basically costs 2.5 termagants worth of money, and 2 crippling poisons staggered are much more useful than one slow as hell to recharge ability. i never thought its performance was bad at 50% either, it just took too long to recharge meaning more often than not it would not be ready for a few critical engagements. An ability on cool down is as good as no ability at all which means one of the largest perks to the ss justicar is easy to nullify. but i mostly blame the psi cannon , hate that damn thing. it does not mesh well at all with SS.