So... since I came back...

[Tex]

Okay so I am going to do this in short form... Previously I typed up an entire well written essay just to have it gobbled up and lost forever to the warp of the internet.

Basically I'm just going to list a few things that I have noticed since I became active again and I'll spit out an idea or two about it.

Feel free to say whatever you want. I've got thick skin.

PC
-Plague grenades are overshadowed entirely by bilespewer and fetid armor. They have 0 reason to exist in their current form. I suggest cutting grenades, and instead making them gas canisters that the PC can empower nearby troops' ranged attack with.
-Bile spewer bilious discharge ability cooldown is WAY too short. Add at least 6 seconds.
-Chose Plague Marines could use optimization. IMO, they need to cost more power, cost less req, and cost a bit more red (200 is my suggestion). As well, I feel like they could use an energy bar and have nurgle's rot cost 60 energy. Futher, they could have a second ability that also costs 60 energy which expands the AOE of their slow for 10(?) seconds. My reasoning being that the ability would allow for an easement in repositioning without having to increase the speed of CPM's.

CS
-Warp still doesn't work on bloodcrushers properly. This sucks. (Thanks for all the hard work on other bugs though devs!)
-Tzeentch shrines don't work in 1v1... like... at all. As I said in a different thread, I would much rather have a debuff effect from the doom bolts than to have damage and DOT. The sorc already does both of those so much better.
-Icon of Tzeentch is a full blown luxury wargear. The % based explosion does less damage to the races where you actually used it, and more damage to the races that you never use it on... If the previous damage was imba (I can't remember), then give this wargear a perk... cast range, minor slow... something, anything...
-Rod of Warpfire has been screaming at me for a while. This wargear is fairly luxury and I would love to see diversity in builds instead of "already have flame sword, not gonna buy rod". I would gladly sacrifice a whole bunch of melee ability on this thing to make it an almost full blown ranged weapon.

Knob
-The knife is OP at 20 power. Hands down. And Inb4 I get called a hypocrite (I was one of the people who badly wanted the knife to get buffed), I have used it a ton now and the thing just kicks too much ass at 20 power. Price needs to be 120-25.
-Kommando squad Nob leader is trash. His cost is high considering he dies so much, and he still has that super annoying minimum range of 10. HE DOESN'T EVEN DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE!! Considering that to actually outright kill a vehicle you would need 2 kommando squads and 2 Nob leaders on top of that, I don't really see taking away the minimum range as being a big issue.

Mek
-Electric armor is poop. There's already talk of this in other threads so I'll be short... Make the shock into a utility slow/snare against vehicles or just reduce the speed penalty... w/e.

Warboss
-The window of opportunity for the bang bang hammer is crazy small. Is it so much to ask to change this thing to power_melee, reduce the damage to an appropriate level, but yet have it as a superior carry over choice vs always getting the claw?
-Boss pole even at 20 power is still not doing what it's supposed to. I've never wanted this to be a "lets buff shootas and lootas and weirdboy" backline thing. I always saw it as a tool to help with flanking, and it just doesn't do the job against setup teams. I think changing the hp bonus to 5% and the suppression resistance to 70-75% as well as making it non stackable would be a step in the right direction.

FC
-Thunder Hammer is boss mode. I don't know how I didn't notice this before, but its worth looking at. Get Rekt much?

General
-Cheaper snipers that fire faster are incredibly frustrating when playing as IG, Chaos, and Nids. I don't feel so bad for IG and nids, but I currently view SM vs Chaos as heavily SM favored. That faster fire rate bleeds tics really bad and as chaos you really have no answer other than offer up your raptors as fodder to the SM backline. And raptors vs SM is not my favorite purchase at all.
-Nobs are poop in this meta. Worth looking at.


Anyway, that's it for now, I will probably do another one of these in a few days as I make my way through some other commanders and situations.

[Forestradio]

The knife is OP at 20 power.

Just focus fire the Kommando

[PhatE]

Given the 1 vs 1 nature of this thread I'll chime in.

In reference to the Ork heroes;
Warboss
Gang Bang Hammer - I find it to be a really nice weapon for hitting things but I would agree that it trails off later on vs heavier units but only to a point as the buffs it can provide are really nice to have. If it were power_melee then you'd be able to stand up a bit better to them without having to fork out 150/50 (upfront or additional). The Klaw is the superior choice in most instances. Worth considering since it's the least seen wargear (or at least should be) when you're applying early bleed with the Kustom Shoota or spending on units/upgrades. Feeling a little indifferent to this one but I'll let it simmer.

Boss Pole - I find this a 50/50 type thing. In many instances the boss pole has done me really well but other times I still find myself still being suppressed way too quickly for what is a very large suppression reduction. Ork units tend to suppress pretty damn quick. I like that direction where the HP increase trade off for more suppression resist would really help the perils of the Warboss when it comes to suppression teams.

Mek
Electric armour - The armour is forgotten about over the awesomeness of the battery pack with the combination of the painboy. Shadow of it's former glory (for good reason). Could use a slow at the least to get it back wider use.

Knob
Price increase agreed on
Knob leader is getting a damage increase but it's only 5 more damage. Right now they just tickle things and could be more but I'll see on the performance of the change before I give my final thought on that dude. Granted though he's definitely an expensive loss and will always runs forward when using dakka dakka dakka or whatever it's called with leads to his death most times.

Nobs - Are not attractive. Wouldn't even go on a pity date with that squad. Overshadowed by looted tanks which are great and Kommandos which are great as well for their utility and being cheeky I'd only get them if I had painboy support which is pretty much the only time I'd want them but it's a serious resource dump. The mek and the Knob have something that can support them well enough to make them worth getting but with the Warboss it's not a good idea to get them over the aforementioned units. The mek makes them a wrecking ball but it's a seriously expensive wrecking ball.

FC thunderhammer has always been boss mode. Unlikely to change but can be pretty ridic when he has the tele as well. Special attacks in general from that are unpredictable in their damage plus constant buffs. Having said that I would probably leave it as.

Snipers are still super lame

[DarnedDragoon]

I suggest cutting grenades, and instead making them gas canisters that the PC can empower nearby troops' ranged attack with.

So you want to buff CSMs' and autocannons' range attacks? Sounds op to me.

[Cheekie Monkie]

I suggest cutting grenades, and instead making them gas canisters that the PC can empower nearby troops' ranged attack with.

So you want to buff CSMs' and autocannons' range attacks? Sounds op to me.

Though a grenade which buffs allies and/or debuffs enemies does seem like an interesting concept which can be played around for a bit - especially considering the fact that it fits well to the PC's playstyle and overall theme. At the moment, the closest parallel we have to this are smoke grenades.

Here's another idea - make purification vials heal allies as well as kill your enemies #trollface

[Torpid]

I love the blight grenades and I don't particularly find fetid armour ever worthwhile. I mean, the fetid armour is just bad really. Why do you need on-demand suppression as the PC? You have tics with their doomblast, bile spewer with its ability and passive snare, nm with cacophony, raptors which suppress on landing and of course melee-resist SUTs.

All of the above can be combined with a blight grenade for devastating effects. BG in front of nm and then a cacophony to knock melee into it is brutal and while supppressed they can't dodge it.

Historically PC struggled vs SUTs but the PC himself moves at normal speed when suppressed or very close to such so you can easily use BGs to counter enemy suppression especially alongside either havocs or NM of your own - just suppress them with your havocs first then move in for the BG, or split up your PC and NM both of which can deal with SUTs at a longer range than melee squads can.

BGs synergise well with tic doomblast and tic GL barrage too. And they give you some retreat killing potential too. Let's be honest too, they're sickenly OP with regards to their damage. Have you seen what happens when stormboyz dare to jump melee-resist havocs when there is a blight grenade and AC tics to counter-initiate them? They get utterly annihilated.

Imo, BGs are OP, certainly not UP and yes I nearly always go spewer+BG in t1 as PC.

And me and Mathis concluded a while back that scout snipers got buffed with their changes. Eldar rangers got nerfed heavily though. It's funny how metas work right? That's how different eldar's and SM's T1s are. Same changes are received as a buff by one and a nerf by the other.

[Tex]

Thanks for the great responses so far.

I think I need to clarify on my suggestion for "gas canisters". I didn't mean it would outright increase their ranged damage although that would probably work out just as well. I was more so thinking of making ranged attacks have some form of infectious result.

Also, I really want replays from torpid on how to use plague grenades. Apparently I missed the bus for that day of dow2 school.
In my opinion, the pc doesn't struggle in any way against melee in the first place and further, not many people are willing to offer up their jump squad to the wrath of the pc's counter initiation prowess. As well, with such a slow hero, landing a grenade in the retreat path is rare at best.

[Swift]

I did preach that the snipers change would work unfavourably for Chaos. Just sayin'...

Interesting suggestions, I'd always rank (in 1v1 bear in mind) Bile Spewer as top PC tier 1 wargear, with the sword or grenades next and Fetid armour falling off at the end.

[Protagonist]

I think I need to clarify on my suggestion for "gas canisters". I didn't mean it would outright increase their ranged damage although that would probably work out just as well. I was more so thinking of making ranged attacks have some form of infectious result.

The Codex does not support this course of action, but Nurgle does.

[Dark Riku]

Feel free to say whatever you want.

I'll share my opinions in very short, unexplained form then


PG's are definitely not under performing
Bile spewer maybe.
CPM are getting tweaks next patch. Their design/performance is going in the right direction, improvements can always be made.

Bugs can always use fixing Attempt to make warp more reliable is in the next patch.
Tzeench shrines. Use LoS to your advantage?
-Shrines are usually very niche, you probably need to have a shooty enemy army and some shooty unist of your own to make good use of this one.
Icon of Tzeench used to wipe squads with no possible counter play. Yea, pretty imba
Rod of Warpfire is fine as is.

Knife is pretty damn strong indeed. 100/25 would be fine as a cost imo. It still has it's counterplays.
Squad leaders die all the time and sometimes never, kinda random. :/
-Mimimum range could get reduced, taken away entirely would probably give issues.

Don't you remember electric armor back in the days, because I do. We don't want that happening again.

Window for the hammer stays good throughout the game, it buffs everything around the warboss on a race that already has huge damage potential.
Boss pole could get a design change, wouldn't be out of the question.

Thunder hammer is "boss mode" in certain situations, so are many other things. What's wrong with that?

Snipers were and kinda still are unfun to play with though. Another idea/change might be helpful.

Nobs are one of those boss mode things...

[Lichtbringer]

And me and Mathis concluded a while back that scout snipers got buffed with their changes. Eldar rangers got nerfed heavily though. It's funny how metas work right? That's how different eldar's and SM's T1s are. Same changes are received as a buff by one and a nerf by the other.

Thing is, they didn't get the same changes.
Scoutsniper damage 170-->90 almost half damage, but still a bit more.
Rangerrifle damage 160-->80 so Rangers got half the damage.

This is really not that important because of model hp and such, but it decreases the overall dps. Back then I did the math on most targets, and I am pretty sure Rangers got no advantage through this agaisnt anything.

The bigger thing was:
Scoutsniper time between shots from 12-->6,5 they fire 85% faster, if my math is correct.
Rangerrifle time between shots from 7,5-->5 they fire 50% faster.

I think it's easy to see that one was nerfed way more than the other.

Oh well...

[Torpid]

@

Well that wasn't even the main point that me and Mathis were basing that on. It's just scouts are way more versatile and SM have tacs for even more ranged superiority. I'm not sure what specifically is doing it, but it's more compositional.

[Dark Riku]

Thing is, ...

That's probably because rangers did too much damage.
Rangers still have more DPS versus every target over sniper scouts.
They also come with a very long ranged kb ability (shotgunblast but across your screen) and detect (with longer sigth and detect range).
Possibility to cloak an army too when upgraded

This is really not that important because of model hp and such, but it decreases the overall dps. Back then I did the math on most targets, and I am pretty sure Rangers got no advantage through this agaisnt anything.

They both received a DPS increase versus commanders, people should use them more often versus those.
Scouts received a DPS boost versus (S)HI while that of rangers pretty much stayed the same (0.5 DPS decrease).

DPS Chart
VS commander
old Sniper 8.5 --- 13.8 new
old ranger 12.8 -- 16 new
VS (S)HI
old Sniper 14.1 --- 18 new
old ranger 21.3 -- 20.8 new
VS Infantry
old Sniper 14.1--- 13.8 new
old ranger 21.3 -- 16 new

The Idea behind it
The Idea is to make Sniper less frustrating to play against, but open up their usefulness in other matchups more against the overall infantry and potential to bleed the enemy commander health pool. For ex. Their utility vs Guardsmen/Tyranid will improve to bleed hormagaunt/termagant or commanders more effectively, but they are countered more heavily by rush-down units like Genestealers/Ogryns in response, since they can quickly close the gap without taking to much damage. This is abit of a simple explanation on the overall change - but overall, the sniper play is a pretty concensual anti-fun experience, but the change in mind should both make it more fun to play with, and against. You have more time to react, but you're forced to react nontheless since the damage spunges should occur more frequently, but less impactful.

I'm not saying snipers are completely perfect right now. These are just some things I wanted to point out because you seem to have some wrong info.

[Lichtbringer]

I'm not saying snipers are completely perfect right now. These are just some things I wanted to point out because you seem to have some wrong info.

Oh yeah, it's no problem. I am not too salty about Rangers now. I knew that they had more dps before the change than Scouts, but I assumed that the units were balanced against each other (not directly against, I know Rangers still have arguably an advantage I mean in a Eldar/SM vs Orks way). I often heard even before the change more people complaining about enemy scoutsnipers than Rangers.

My only real problem is that they don't onehit guardsmen, and that they are the only detector. And sometimes I really don't want to get them vs an Lictoralpha, but what can you do...

They just feel a bit dissapointing to play. You don't bleed the enemy and they don't give you DPS. You can do good things with the abilitys, and they do their job against setupteams...

And at that point I will trust Torpid that he is right about compositional stuff and that therefore my Gutsfeeling is right


I don't want to turn this into a Rangerdiscussion, but I just had this Idea. What about giving the other two models more dps on their shorterrange weapons? It doesn't make them anymore lame to play against in a sniper way, but gives you just a bit more dps in a full on fight?

[Forestradio]

And sometimes I really don't want to get them vs an Lictoralpha, but what can you do...

I hear the concede button is pretty helpful in this situation.

[Atlas]

Keep in mind avengers will give soft detection next patch, so I think 2 DA builds are gonna get more popular in 1v1s again as opposed to things like 1-1-1-1 or 2 shuri

[Daddy]

Okay so I am going to do this in short form... Previously I typed up an entire well written essay just to have it gobbled up and lost forever to the warp of the internet.

Basically I'm just going to list a few things that I have noticed since I became active again and I'll spit out an idea or two about it.

Feel free to say whatever you want. I've got thick skin.

PC
-Plague grenades are overshadowed entirely by bilespewer and fetid armor. They have 0 reason to exist in their current form. I suggest cutting grenades, and instead making them gas canisters that the PC can empower nearby troops' ranged attack with.
-Bile spewer bilious discharge ability cooldown is WAY too short. Add at least 6 seconds.
-Chose Plague Marines could use optimization. IMO, they need to cost more power, cost less req, and cost a bit more red (200 is my suggestion). As well, I feel like they could use an energy bar and have nurgle's rot cost 60 energy. Futher, they could have a second ability that also costs 60 energy which expands the AOE of their slow for 10(?) seconds. My reasoning being that the ability would allow for an easement in repositioning without having to increase the speed of CPM's.


Knob
-The knife is OP at 20 power. Hands down. And Inb4 I get called a hypocrite (I was one of the people who badly wanted the knife to get buffed), I have used it a ton now and the thing just kicks too much ass at 20 power. Price needs to be 120-25.
-Kommando squad Nob leader is trash. His cost is high considering he dies so much, and he still has that super annoying minimum range of 10. HE DOESN'T EVEN DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE!! Considering that to actually outright kill a vehicle you would need 2 kommando squads and 2 Nob leaders on top of that, I don't really see taking away the minimum range as being a big issue.



Anyway, that's it for now, I will probably do another one of these in a few days as I make my way through some other commanders and situations.

+1 !!