Eldar Faction is way under powered and Forgotten

[The Exarch]

Hi, yesterday 5/10/15 I watched the new Eldar vs Space marines Factions wars and heard that they will be nurffing one of the Eldars best units in a game where the eldar are already the weakest faction and in the Elite mod have been completely forgotten all together. I made a few comments on this and was asked to share my opinion buy one of your subscribers. I am going to Paste exactly what I said and see what you guys think.

Youtube Comment from faction wars episode (Dawn of War 2 - Faction Wars 2015 | Space Marines v Eldar | 3/3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TafePTjg0-U

The Exarch: Yes lets nurf the Eldar even tho they hardly ever win a match. What you should be doing is buffing them. What we need is a striking scorpion squad and maybe some swooping hawks. We will never get a Eldar champion because while all the ather factions are being improved and balanced the Eldar are forgotten. If you want prof of this, take a look at the Elite skins for all the other factions, now look at the Eldar... Do you see any? neither do i.

The Exarch: I mean you have got to be kidding me 3 Eldrich Storms and a Warp spider support? c'mon! If the idea is to balance the gam then its time to work on the Eldar. you gave them 2 new squads and that awesome but how often do you really see them in play? you want to balance the eldar then we need a good t1 or t2 melee squad and a striking scorpion would do great for that! plus we need a jump disruption squad and the swooping hawks are the answer. please stop ignoring us eldar players and fix the mod the eldar faction is broken.

The Exarch: Oh and one last thing... Why oh why is the the Avatar the weakest super unit in the game? you have the landraider tanking 3 Zaps but the avatar gets beaten like he is a normal walker unit. Do the Elite mod designers have an issue with the Eldar or something?

Mike Yu: Come to www.dawnofwar.info forums. There is going to be next patch soon and Eldar is getting a complete rework this time. It would be good to give your opinion there as well.

[Dark Riku]

the eldar are already the weakest faction and in the Elite mod have been completely forgotten all together.

No, just no ...

If you want prof of this, take a look at the Elite skins for all the other factions, now look at the Eldar... Do you see any? neither do i.

You ignorant tool. There are new Eldar skins in the works and finished. Take a look on the forums.
Even if there weren't any that's not proof at all of something getting no attention.
The new skins are made by people in their free time and they'll work on the things they want.

The Exarch: Oh and one last thing... Why oh why is the the Avatar the weakest super unit in the game? you have the landraider tanking 3 Zaps but the avatar gets beaten like he is a normal walker unit. Do the Elite mod designers have an issue with the Eldar or something?

Can't answer a question that is false from the start. The Avatar is freaking powerful. His abilities are bonkers.

[Swift]

Sorry, since I'm here I must ask: How much experience do you have with the game? When did you start? What modes do you play? How many hours do you have? How long have you played Eldar specifically.

Eldar to me are not at all underpowered, this sounds like an L2P issue, sorry.

Eldar lacking skins is not proof of bad faction balance, it's a factor of Eldar having fewer assets to work with and mroe SM fanboys crying out for skins.

Eldar are not forgotten, as you can see from the huge numbers of changes they are getting. Why they are getting these I do not know as such.

The Avatar is an excellent support unit, no super unit is a one man army (apart from the Baneblade and Battlewagon, but even then the game is designed around units supporting each other. The Land Raider survived because the bolts missed, the Eldritches were place poorely, generally placing the epicentre above a vehicle means it misses the bolts.

Never ever go by people balancing by Youtube comments. It's nice someone pointed you here, but the people on Youtube... well they don't even play the game.

And Riku's very harsh this evening, but if you can detract from his hostility he makes the same points as me.

[Protagonist]

A Few comments:
1) Welcome to the forums
2) You generally don't want to use 3v3 games as your basis for balance. The Game balance at the 1v1 level is the priority.
3) The Avatar isn't just a beatstick unit, it's meant to provide army wide support ("Allied infantry units within 20 radius do 30% more damage, receive 30% less ranged damage, and are immune to suppression. Passive ability.") in addition to being a nice damage sponge/disruption unit. It's not as killy as say a baneblade or a land raider phobos, but that's not what you get it for.

[Dalakh]

This kind of post I the worse thing you could possibly do if you want to be heard. Let alone be agreed with.

[Caeltos]

I'll only reply to one thing - and it's the skin related.

They do HAVE skins that are currently in the works, that goes Exodite, Saim-Hann & The Harlequins. They have also recieved skins updates, as well as unique models that were built-up from scratch (Dark Reapers are one of them), whereas other factions merely just had re-used assets.

Space Marines and Chaos just had a much easier time to reuse the assets to make unique and custom looking units. They're very quite ever so popular, but that doesn't neccassarily mean that they are favored by any means.

Once the Eldar assets are in play, the faction with the least amount of skins would be the Tyranid and the Orks, so by your logic - they would be underpowered? ^_^

[The Exarch]

First let me be clear about something i prolly should have said from the get go, my intention was not to offend I love the elite mod and play if like its an opiate based drug. But i would be lieing if i said there wasn't some emotion behind my words. I really cant stress how much i like playing it! I also love the faction wars, I watch it whenever i am doing something that prevents me from actually playing the game myself (Like eating ). Caeltos your my hero buddy and if there is anything and i mean anything that i can do to help you make this mod even better please feel fee to ask. As for the rest of you like Riku for example I love watching your matches and as a serious lover of the Eldar, i would like to learn from someone like you.

I never thought that posting my opinion on this web site would mean that i get treated like this tho. when i found out about this site i was told it was a friendly group of people that enjoy the Warhammer universe and where my opinion would be heard and for believing that and posting what i felt I'm an ignorant tool? I guess i am then. I'm sorry i was miss informed about what this site was and if you want ill take down my post and delete my account. I'm sorry if i offended i really am. No all of you are right I'm not an expert by any means. I got into the Warhammer universe back in 2007 while deployed to Iraq on a 18 month tour. I had nothing to do that entire time with the exception of one thing a borrowed copy of the original Dawn of war and its Expansions. But that time spent playing the game made me love it and im found that others felt the same. even tho the games slowly dieing people like you are trying to keep it alive and im glad for that. well i have said my piece and hope i have cleared up what i didn't last time.

[Atlas]

Eldar are receiving some major overhauls next patch that I think you will like. There has been some mumblings about people that feel like eldar needs some help, but I think the next patch (with the finalized changes already posted) will do a lot to address your concerns.

As people have said about skins though, the limiting factor with them are the modelers themselves. The reason there is more SM/CSM stuff is because that's what we can get to work with. There are 3 new eldar schemes coming together next patch that I think you will really enjoy though!

Specifically about Eldritch Storm and the Avatar, you have to consider them as pieces of one large army and not the end all by themselves. That Land Raider was supported by repairs and admittedly some user error on the Eldar side. What they needed to do was concert their attack with their forces to secure the kill. The Avatar is much the same, as he can't charge in by himself. His biggest benefits are to the units that are around him, as they receive major buffs when he's near their forces.

Chin up bro! I know I personally would like to have you here!

[The Exarch]

Thank you Atlas! I walked away from my computer a little bit ago feeling kinda down at the reaction i got for posting my opinion and to be honest it wasn't even my idea. I was talked into it, now i feel like maybe he was setting me up for this kind of reaction. Anyways bro your reply helped to boost my moral and I'm glad the Eldar are getting some attention and that i wasn't the only one that felt that way. In hindsight my words may haven been a little strong. I sometimes forget that you guys do this on your own time and that all of us Warhammer fans owe you a lot for your contributions. Hell part of my reaction comes not just from the mod but from all warhammer games, It's always got to be the space Marines that all games are made for we gotthe space marines 3 person shooter we got the new chess game, space hulk and every other game they ever made (Yes i know the Tau got a crappy 1st person shooter) it's like none of the game makers out there know there are any other faction out there besides the Space Marines and the Orks. I'm really happy about the MMO coming out. FINALLY i can play as the Eldar that isn't a a RTS. If any of you will be playing it you will find me there. please apologize to Caeltos for me in case he doesn't look to see it i should have chosen my words my carefully.

[Caeltos]

There is no need for any apologies, people are entitled to your opinion, people just won't neccassarily agree with it. Some people will respond with hostility, but there's nothing you can really do about it, you'll just get used to people having their preference and their allegiances.

As someone who evaluates things, everyones opinion on balance is essential. You cannot just cater to the balance of a single bracket, so if someone of lower skill ceiling thinks X or Y is broken, but the higher you go in skill ceiling - it's the complete opposite. That means it's essentially just a fundementally abit flawed unit, or concept. For an ex. of this is just look through mobas. Some heroes work better in some areas, but some are just fine in all areas.

The Eldar rework is abit of a project to change up their themeatical gameplay. I'll try to say that in it's current iteration, it's about 60%ish of what it's aiming for, which is abit of a glass-cannon, mobile and guerilla warfare theme in it. However, it ends up being more "Defensive" oriented more then the other parts, which needs to be presented better. That's why say, the Exarch for the Dire Avenger is presented in the early-game, which gives you more raw-damage output potential, but they are still quite a fragile squad - which means that purely defensively wise, they are less suited for those tasks, but can still pull it through, specifically thanks to their 25% damage reduction from ranged in the next update, coupled with more empthasize on synergy with Autarch / Seer Council & the Avatar. (Those changes will be listed eventually) but there is ALOT of room to experiment, and should reward the players for having a well synergized army.

I'm going to bring up a note of reference here. 3x Scouts during pre-TiOW beta used to the THE NORM of Space Marine play. It was really strong, however- purely themetaical and for the health of the game, there adjustments needed in order to make the faction feel, not so much about just SCOUT MARINES, and more empthasize on SPACE MARINES, the scouts are just a support, not the backbone army unit.

Of course, there are balance aspects that were considered as well. But the general theme of the faction has to be nailed down as well. I currently do not feel that Eldar has that just yet, and I want to drive that forward abit. It may not be 100% essential and needed. But if the faction feels more fun, and unique to their respetive history, and then you work around the balance aspects of it all, and you can find a sweet spot - the end-game goal will be so much more rewarding for the developer/designer and the gamers alike.

[Toilailee]

never thought that posting my opinion on this web site would mean that i get treated like this tho. when i found out about this site i was told it was a friendly group of people that enjoy the Warhammer universe and where my opinion would be heard and for believing that and posting what i felt I'm an ignorant tool? I guess i am then.

Hi

You gotta understand that every so often new people show up making bold claims about balance and basically always they are plain wrong. Also basing your claims on Indrid's faction wars and using some fairly ignorant examples to explain your perception of balance eats at your credibility by quite a bit.

--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 ... ger_effect
Have a read.

[The Exarch]

So i have two more question for ya Caeltos. Any chance we will see some striking scorpions in the near future? Or at all for that matter? Also is there anything i can do to help you guys out? I love what you do and would be happy to lend a hand at anything within my power.

[The Exarch]

Oh and Toilailee, I know what the Dunning Kruger effect is, I'm a college student and am currently taking psychology classes. Never at any point did i proclaim me superiority or even feel it, I have watched a lot of the faction wars and other matches in general not to mention my own experiance playing it and what i saw was the Eldar losing... A lot! I felt like they where under powered but was fine with that, then i heard From Indrid that they where being nurffed and i felt i had to speak my mind before they became in my opinion unplayable and would regret not saying something when i did. I know this is a bit of an extreme example but Edmund Burke said Evil prevails when good men fail to act. Im in no way saying that Caeltos is evil or anything like that but what i am saying is that if I felt something bad that i cared about was going to happen then i either sit back and let it happen or do something about it. And last thing saying the Dunning Kruger Effect applies to me isn't exactly a compliment, It's kinda like calling someone Ignorant and Delusional at the same time.

[Atlas]

I think there was some talk about Striking Scorpions where we might have had the models and animations for it, but the problem was how it would have fit with the Eldar army. It was close to consensus that they would be a T1.5 unit (<- as in in T1 but costed power to make like asm etc etc) but the problem was that there was problems as to how they would fit in the army.

Basically, people wanted them to be sneaky melee fighters that were a bit tankier than banshees, but then people said that there was still overlap with banshees, rangers already could infiltrate plus you can use camo field, the FS gate and Heart of Darkness to produce the same "cloaked melee fighters" effect with banshees. In essence, why get Scorpions when if you really wanted sneaky fighters you could use rangers and banshees?

Anyway, take that only as a personal opinion as I can't remember the exact details of the conversation. That was just the vibe I remember from when I went in there.

[The Exarch]

I see. Well still it would be nice to see them in play if only in a side mod like this destroyer mod or something. plus the swooping hawks would be nice but a little on the OP side as they can drop a bunch of plasma grenades as they jump. Its hard to dodge that and would be a lot like the IG's Rocket Run.

[Caeltos]

Striking Scorpions were developed very early on, but scrapped due to inablity to find the actual practicality of the unit within the context of the army the eldar had. This doesn't mean that they won't get added in the future however. It all depends on how things shake & develop in the future.

And the changes aren't "nerfs", by any means. It might be taken abit out of context. Since they are being primarily reworked. That means they are being shifted abit in their statistical values , both in a positive and negative way to find a better spot. For an ex of this;

- Wraithguard damage reduced
- Wraithguard can fire on the move

You are given one positive, but it is quite a substantial one. The damage reduction has broader implication, as it may require the squad to fire an additional volley to kill something. The change also allow the Wraithguard to be applied more purely pressure wise, whereas in their current state, they are quite potent for a very stalemate fight, or defensive nature.

Alot of the changes in the Eldar rework update gives & takes to the Eldar army.

[The Exarch]

Very cool! move and fire sounds great! How about their in ability to to fire at moving targets? is there going to be a improvement on that? Any can see the striking scorpion model in some way? you would make my night with that!

[Swift]

You didn't offend anyone, at least you didn't offend me. Riku is Riku and he'll get angry about anything But as Toil points out, a lot of people who have little experience in the game come here or write in the Youtube comments, and their opinions are pretty much gob-shite because they don't really play the game and get all hurt that SM keep winning faction wars.

Never apologise when faced with someone's opinion, it's their internal view and either you or they will change to accomodate each other's differences, but I'm afraid a lot of people on this forum come across as eliteist or up themselves because quite simply people who have never or rarely play the game keep getting shot down by people who know the game.

Though I must say your arguments for why Eldar are underpowered, well I'm sorry but that really speaks for your understanding of this game.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Everyone is entitled to their own views, but when you make provocative statements like that the entire race is forgotten and thrown into the dustbin of history, you're going to get a few provocative answers in response. It's also the internet, so exaggerated responses are going to be thrown around a lot.

Swooping hawks are unnecessary - we already have the autarch as a melee jump disruption unit and warp spiders as a ranged 'disruption' unit. Other posters have already gone through your various points in varying volume.

I'm afraid a lot of people on this forum come across as eliteist

I see what you did there.

[Dark Riku]

Riku is Riku and he'll get angry about anything

SwiftRage! *waves finger in disapprovement*


It's just the way your original post was made Exarch. In my eyes you sounded very disrespectful and not informed at all.
It seemed more of a demand rather than you giving your opinion on the matter. The thinking pattern on attention and skins totally missed the ball ass well.
I don't think you pissed anyone off though No need for apologies.

You seem like a decent person. Just don't be surprised by responses you get by making posts in such a way.
Welcome to the forums ^^ Hope you stick around.

[ytimk]

Having Caeltos explain some design and balance philosophy/plans like this is pretty cool - answers lots of questions and gives insight into where things are headed .

[Cheekie Monkie]

Having Caeltos explain some design and balance philosophy/plans like this is pretty cool - answers lots of questions and gives insight into where things are headed .

These pearls of wisdom need to be documented somewhere. It's a really good method of engagement.

[Toilailee]

And last thing saying the Dunning Kruger Effect applies to me isn't exactly a compliment, It's kinda like calling someone Ignorant and Delusional at the same time.

I hate to be sound like this but that was kinda the point, every example you gave screams ignorance...

[bountyhunter571]

concerning the op/up statements - there are factions that require more micromanagement than others, but they will also return more output if managed well. teamgames are never a good indicator for these balance discussions.

however, you mentioned you would like to contribute to the mod. you could for example create a map via the world builder tool. or get yourself into 3ds max and help with creating dlcs and skins, propably something eldar related? be aware, this will take an extreme amount of time and practise until you will get good at it, but if youre interested and ready to spend your spare time at this due to your interest in learning and still doing somethig related to DoW, and maybe providing something to the mod give it a go.

[The Exarch]

First of all thank you all for the warm welcome! I'm happy to be here! Now I wanted to answer all of you so i just posted your name next to the comment that apply's to you.

(Swiftsabre) When i finally got in contact with you guys I wanted to make a good impression because i love what all of you do! Can you see where my line of thinking was when i found out that i had the opposite effect that i wanted? Yes i know it was a terrible post with to much emotion in it. But If you want to get noticed you have to stand out and in that regard i was successful. Having said that I still feel i should apologize because I was to demanding and disrespectful. Now I know I'm not a pro in anyway in this game but I am motivated to learn and that's the first step to becoming one am I right?

(Cheekie Monkie) Yes i know i came on to strong but at the time it was a Youtube comment and i had just lost a bet to a friend of mine on who was going to win and after it was over i was all fired up about losing and using the "Eldar under powered" Excuse and then was asked to share my comment here. I had a talk with the guy who sent me and he told me he didn't mean to send me into the wolfs den and i believe he was being truthful. He said it was my trail by fire lol. As for my squad choices they are from an inexperienced player however i still think it would be cool to see them in play.

(Dark Riku) Riku, Im a huge fan of yours and was really bummed that i managed to get you sorta pissed off. I'm glad that we were able to move past that! I'm glad to join this group and will be sticking for as long as you guys do, so if you look for me you will see me around. Any hopes on some Eldar Training from ya?

(Toilailee) Hey man I'm having a good day now that i have cleared everything up with everyone. I'm not sure if this is further "Trial By Fire" but I just want to get along and join this Forum community so what are you doing here?

(BountyHunter571) Yes i would very much like to contribute to the mod and will do all in my power to learn this skill set and put it into play. I am a disabled Veteran so i have a lot of time on my hands lol. Now keep in mind that I will be learning this skill from scratch but im pretty Tech-Savvy so It shouldn't be a problem. Are you one of the Mod Designers?

Thank you all again for your feedback, and removing me from public enemy number one lol.
-The Exarch-

[Cyris]

This thread has been a real hoot. I'm glad it seems like a happy ending

[The Exarch]

This thread has been a real hoot. I'm glad it seems like a happy ending

As am I

[sterling]

If you want to see what Eldar are getting in the next patch model wise follow the link in my sig and check the thread every once in a while - there'll be plenty of new models incoming.

This thread has been a real hoot. I'm glad it seems like a happy ending

As am I

A rare thing on the internet. Good job elite forums

[Atlas]

This thread has been a real hoot. I'm glad it seems like a happy ending

I take credit for all of it. My stunning optimism and black-hole charisma beats the power of emo and hatred every day .

[The Exarch]

This thread has been a real hoot. I'm glad it seems like a happy ending

I take credit for all of it. My stunning optimism and black-hole charisma beats the power of emo and hatred every day .

Well played sir!