T3 Spammable Ranged Domination units + Upkeep changes

[Torpid]

*The following post assumes that it is possible to edit upkeep costs without changing initially sunk costs to purchase a unit or their population cost*

With the addition of various new T3 toys for certain races the old "space marine snowball" that make SM so good in T3 is largelly non-existent anymore. Before, once SM had dropped a couple of termies down alongside an LRR very very little could ever defeat them, but now termies aren't such a huge problem due to D-cannons not having got a nerf, seers being added to all eldar, gitz, kasrkin, neurothropes, chaos terminators and so on.

One I've noticed however is that now other races can snowball with these units too, except it's not a legit snowball. Because of the way that upkeep vales work in that if you have a far lower population you will get far more req it is a legitimate strategy as either orks or IG to throw away your T1 basic units (shootas/guardsmen) in favour of later getting gitz/kasrkin. This is possibly of course only due to the nature of team games. In a 1v1 ou would simply have your gens destroyed and lose all map control if you did this and then you would fail, but in a team game such doesn't occur. It's ridiculous though how atm 2gitz+nobz are running around in favour of sluggaz/shootas. You would never ever see this in a 1v1 at high level, but at high level team games it is not uncommon at all. It is extremely cheesy and frankly it should not be a legit strategy. Same thing happens with eldar D-cannons + fire prisms. IG lemans+kasrkin and nids fexes+neurothrope.

Why is it a bad thing? Because it defeats the entire purpose of DOW. DOW is clearly designed around squad preservation with the retreat mechanic, the reinforcement mechanic being cheaper than buying full squads from base and the leveling mechanic.

Something needs to be done.

I suggest increasing the population costs/upkeep costs. Gitz would be 6 pop each, Kasrkin would have their upkeep nearly tripled to 7 per model, only 2.5 on the sarge (right now kasrkin models have equal upkeep to guardsmen models, this is precisely why throwing away your GM to spam kasrkin/lemans works). DOM to 12 pop, carnifex pop still 18 but upkeep increased to 70 from 57, Lemans to 50upkeep from 45. Baneblade to 80 upkeep. D-cannons will get sufficiently nerfed next patch.

Another thing though would be to reduce the upkeep costs of squads as they level. Not the pop, that would remina unaltered, however the raw upkeep cost per model would reduce by 10%,20%,30%,40% say for example. I think this would solve the problem of spamming these T3 units after suiciding half your army as it happens often enough in T3 these days.

Another thing to consider to balance out the extra req from those leveled squads would be to give an "upkeep" on tech. I.e. every tier you go up in your HQ the lower the amount of req it produces becomes. Maybe reduce received req from the HQ by 15% each tier of progression? Or 10% for T2 and an additional 20% for T3?

P.S Ogryns could probably deserve a upkeep reduction to 10 per model instead of 12 per model. Right now an ogryn squad fully upgraded costs you 50 req per minute (ignoring the bleed) whereas kasrkin cost only 15 req per minute. Ridiculous. Manticores cost 40 req per minute themselves by the way.7

Such changes are preferable to changes in sunk costs as the sunk costs are not problematic for the units in a 1v1 where you cannot throw nits away for req and map control is more important on your income. This will hopefully aid with addressing the issue in team games but no hurt 1v1 in doing so.

[Atlas]

The SM snowball is still very real, it's just a lot heavier on tacs right now than terms. The Drop Pod change has made it a lot easier to field that 2nd/3rd tac. Reducing the upkeep through tiers of lower tier units honestly is a straight buff to this style and honestly, it's good enough as it is especially with apo.

When I play IG, I never get Kasrkin. Like ever. Kasrkin are just yet another fragile shooty unit on a faction full of that kind of thing and I'd much rather be saving up for a Russ than getting them out. Even when I've suffered squad losses of GMs I still would rather replace them due to repair. I just don't see a reason to basically triple their upkeep. I haven't played enough Orks to say how bad Flash Gitz are really.

Overall, this is a problem that seems to stem from the nature of team games I mean, any faction can snowball when they have a bunch of T3 units out. I don't really think anyone walks into a game specifically in mind to throw their t1 units away so they can get gitz/kasrkin.

[Torpid]

The SM snowball is still very real, it's just a lot heavier on tacs right now than terms. The Drop Pod change has made it a lot easier to field that 2nd/3rd tac. Reducing the upkeep through tiers of lower tier units honestly is a straight buff to this style and honestly, it's good enough as it is especially with apo.

When I play IG, I never get Kasrkin. Like ever. Kasrkin are just yet another fragile shooty unit on a faction full of that kind of thing and I'd much rather be saving up for a Russ than getting them out. Even when I've suffered squad losses of GMs I still would rather replace them due to repair. I just don't see a reason to basically triple their upkeep. I haven't played enough Orks to say how bad Flash Gitz are really.

Overall, this is a problem that seems to stem from the nature of team games I mean, any faction can snowball when they have a bunch of T3 units out. I don't really think anyone walks into a game specifically in mind to throw their t1 units away so they can get gitz/kasrkin.

I do it intentionally all the time and it works. It makes team games an absolute joke imo. While teching T3 I tell my allies I'm going to be weak for a few mins so play defensive and don't expect major help. I then suicide my shootas and replace them with either Gitz or kommandos depending on what I need to deal with.

The only reason kasrkin would need it near tripled is because of how disgustingly low it is atm. How on Earth can a kasrkin model that takes up triple the pop of guardsmen only cost the same in terms of upkeep as a guardsmen???

Suicide your upgraded guardsmen squad and replace them with a couple of default GM if you need repairs, or suicide your stormtroopers/catachans (if you don't need detection).

[Batpimp]

I agree

[Atlas]

I had a game earlier today where I lost my GM squads due to getting stuck, so I tried out Kasrkin play.

O.o

After that, I did some quick number crunching on the site Codex between various units and their population and upkeep.

o.O

I take it back. Kasrkin do in fact have the same upkeep as guardsman at 2.55 a pop. For reference, Stormtroopers have an upkeep of 6.16 a pop, tacs have 12.75 and Flash Gitz have 10.2. I'd probably put Kasrkin closer to Dark Reaper levels of upkeep at 7.65 a pop which if I do the math.... is exactly triple their upkeep as of now.

So far, I still don't think we need to reduce upkeep as units level as I'm still concerned about very heavy t1 play becoming way more sustainable than it should be, but I agree that we should probably take another look at ranged superiority units as a whole and make sure they make sense in the general context of the army.

[Tex]

This thread makes me chuckle, because I feel like people are only now realizing that Karskin are a superior choice to just about any other unit in the game.

[Mathis]

This certainly is an issue that needs to be addressed. Another possible solution is to add t3 upgrades for t1 squads as in case with vanguard assault space marines.

[Cheekie Monkie]

This thread makes me chuckle, because I feel like people are only now realizing that Karskin are a superior choice to just about any other unit in the game.

Ssshhh we're a bit slow.

[saltychipmunk]

odd, i have the opposite experience with those t3 spamable units , they tend to come off as overpriced units that have a huge power cost ... but then need another power investment or two to be good.

kaskrins are basically storm troopers with no infiltration, 2 nades (one of which is rather weak in late game) and a hefty powercost.

and have you tried to use flash gits without their lazer death guns? might as well have kept a shoota boy-squad around.

[Torpid]

odd, i have the opposite experience with those t3 spamable units , they tend to come off as overpriced units that have a huge power cost ... but then need another power investment or two to be good.

kaskrins are basically storm troopers with no infiltration, 2 nades (one of which is rather weak in late game) and a hefty powercost.

and have you tried to use flash gits without their lazer death guns? might as well have kept a shoota boy-squad around.

Yes I have. They are a million times better than shootas.

Let's do some maths.

32.5*3 = 97.5dps at LEVEL 1 for flash gitz, bear in mind that these fellas are levelling fast since they kill stuff very quickly. They also have 51 range. 51!!!!! Normal shootas and most ranged weapons have 38, this is more than the assault cannon on the ranged terminators.

Shootas in comparison at lv4:

Normal shootas - 7*3*1.16 = 24.5dps

Big shootas - 15.27*2*1.16 = 35.5dps

Shota nob - 16*1.16 = 18.5dps

So all in all, shootas are doing 78.5dps at lv 4. Most of those shootas only have range 38, not 51 the big shootas though do have 41, still not 51 though is it? They are light infantry not heavy infantry, will be bleeding you more models. lv4 shootas are better in melee though

Let's see if the upkeep justifies this massive difference in raw power.

3 flash gitz = 15pop and 30req per minute.

lv4 shoota boy squad = 15pop and 32req per minute.

Guess what kids? It's great to suicide your shootas and replace them with gitz. Who would have guessed it???

[Kentation]

32.5*3 = 97.5dps at LEVEL 1 for flash gitz, bear in mind that these fellas are levelling fast since they kill stuff very quickly. They also have 51 range. 51!!!!! Normal shootas and most ranged weapons have 38, this is more than the assault cannon on the ranged terminators.

Just wanted to make it clear, this is with the Gitfindas upgrade , they have 45 range out the gate.

Referring to the intial post, I'm surprise you didn't mention limiting the maximum squad type on the field. E.g can only have 2 Kasrkin on the field at a given time. Spamming in team games seems viable with certain units, therefore putting on limits would help prevent anti-fun matches right? I mean, no one likes D-cannon/Manticores spam when it works well.

Also, won't this benefit skrimish AI?

[Torpid]

32.5*3 = 97.5dps at LEVEL 1 for flash gitz, bear in mind that these fellas are levelling fast since they kill stuff very quickly. They also have 51 range. 51!!!!! Normal shootas and most ranged weapons have 38, this is more than the assault cannon on the ranged terminators.

Just wanted to make it clear, this is with the Gitfindas upgrade , they have 45 range out the gate.

Referring to the intial post, I'm surprise you didn't mention limiting the maximum squad type on the field. E.g can only have 2 Kasrkin on the field at a given time. Spamming in team games seems viable with certain units, therefore putting on limits would help prevent anti-fun matches right? I mean, no one likes D-cannon/Manticores spam when it works well.

Also, won't this benefit skrimish AI?

These spams are not viable in 1v1 and capping units is a very poor way to do balance. It just goes to show that the unit is imbalanced in the first place if you need to cap it. I think it's far more preferable to sort the actual problem out directly.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Agreed. I want to see sternguard spam!

Seriously though, don't know why they're capped.

[Kentation]

I understand and I agree with the proposed changes. I suggested capping units because I was worried about how damaging the upkeep/pop increase can be to an armies composition and economy, especially in the 1v1 scenarios (but I'm probably overestimating the impact here).

[Broodwich]

I tend to leave a shoota squad with the leader for detection and suicide the other for gitz. Haven't played orks much though in a while

[Flash]

I admit to killing my shootas all the time in favor of gitz or commandos haha

[[EL] The Emperor]

First off no one uses the Kasrkin, and as far as I am concerned they should be removed. Now like all my posts I go off of observation rather then mathematics like some of my peers.

Now we shall go into my reasoning which begins with expense first off they practically cost half a Baneblade, and they are weak as fuck in terms of defense. Now I know what everyone will jump at me for saying which is "why am I not kiting them?", well for everyone who doesn't know kiting in tier 3 can become quite difficult in a 3v3. On top of the fact the storm troopers do things better then kasrkins in a wide variety of ways. Now maybe I am biased because I am dominantly a Lord General player but... I can out range everything with assault kit storm troopers. Plus they are cheaper, and much more cost efficient in the short term which is rather more important then the long term because by tier 3 its usually blitzing VPs. Meaning I may lose a squad of storms but they don't cost a arm, and a leg to replace quickly.

Another thing is the build order, and this is my typical tier 3 army composition: LG + 3x GM + 2x AK Storms + LRE + BB + miscellaneous.

Why maintaining that build I am floating at least 2000 requisition, and at least 500 power by the end of the game meaning I can keep shitting out units if I lose one (not preferable but proves a point).

The spam you are suggesting means that people don't lose a Kasrkin squad, and trust me that rarely happens when everyone is out ranging plus focusing them down. In a Imperial Guard versus Imperial Guard mirror in a 3v3 I am positive I would beat anyone spamming those units. Now of course support becomes a factor, but in my honest opinion Kasrkins are, and always will be shitty storm trooper variants who should be removed. The damage they do is hardly worth their expense, and survivability. So many scenarios where they can be wiped out (Space Marine nuke placed behind retreating Kasrkins comes to mind).

They only units that people spam, and piss me off severely are Nobs, and Terminators, or Terminator + Cyclone missiles. Everything else can be dealt with. Low tier armies supporting high tier vehicles can beat this spam you are suggesting. Economically, and range wise they don't stand a chance in hell against the build I suggested when properly used. Honestly Kasrkins are a joke...

[Atlas]

...

Another thing is the build order, and this is my typical tier 3 army composition: LG + 3x GM + 2x AK Storms + LRE + BB + miscellaneous.

...

You are everything I hate about LG 3v3 players D:<

Anyway Kasrkin don't cost half as much as a Banewolf. That 140 power isn't something to sneeze at.
As a general note, it's hard to talk balance in a super chaotic 3v3 that you describe. Balls of death colliding at mid vp doesn't say much about the state of an individual unit.

[[EL] The Emperor]

...

Another thing is the build order, and this is my typical tier 3 army composition: LG + 3x GM + 2x AK Storms + LRE + BB + miscellaneous.

...

You are everything I hate about LG 3v3 players D:<

Anyway Kasrkin don't cost half as much as a Banewolf. That 140 power isn't something to sneeze at.
As a general note, it's hard to talk balance in a super chaotic 3v3 that you describe. Balls of death colliding at mid vp doesn't say much about the state of an individual unit.

Maybe your right about the chaotic part, but you've seen my build used on you first hand in a 3v3, sorry if I angered yah in that match! Hueuehuehuehuehueheuheuheuehue... But as far the individual state of the Kasrkin... COME ON there only redeemable quality is their variety of weapons to upgrade to, and their upkeep cost is a joke!

You want Kasrkins that could actually work? MAKE THEM LIKE THE DAWN OF WAR 1 KASRKINS!! But if you read the patch they are about to make anyways Kasrkins are going to be even less useless, "sustained DPS ScArY!! OOOH!!". Point is the individual unit on paper is overpowered maybeee... but in actual practice? Nah... you need to put the unit in the situation.

You are right though that 140 power is nothing to sneeze at, it makes me wonder why bother spending money on it! I will say though you are right I should define the individual unit better. But you also need to compare it to the hell it has to face!

[Adeptus Noobus]

I might come off as stupid now (please forgive me) but doesn't the fact that almost every IG unit only has infantry armor play a role in their upkeep cost? Maybe it makes more sense to change the reinforcement costs of Kasrkins to mitigate their low upkeep and making it unfavorable to bleed models (specialist units shouldn't be wasted like that anyway, that's what GMs are for).
I can see why people complain about them having GM-like upkeep and STs have higher upkeep but keep in mind that STs can infiltrate and just you know kite away. There should be an economic tradeoff for that ability.

Did I make any sense or did I just completely brake IG economy?

P.S: In what scenario/MUs are Kasrkins preferred over Lemans though?

[Caeltos]

You want Kasrkins that could actually work? MAKE THEM LIKE THE DAWN OF WAR 1 KASRKINS!! But if you read the patch they are about to make anyways Kasrkins are going to be even less useless, "sustained DPS ScArY!! OOOH!!". Point is the individual unit on paper is overpowered maybeee... but in actual practice? Nah... you need to put the unit in the situation.

Considering you don't know the changes, I'd prefer that you keept quiet instead of crying over something which you know nothing about. This kind of behavior irritates the living shit out of me.

[Atlas]

... [ a bunch of stuff]

P.S: In what scenario/MUs are Kasrkins preferred over Lemans though?

In 1v1? It's pretty rare to see either because IG reaching T3 in 1v1 is extremely difficult. Still, you would probably see Kasrkin more if onlty because they are much much cheaper to field than a Russ.

Still, it's really hard to argue against a Russ assuming you can get it. IG T2 doesn't have any hard vehicles so you aren't likely facing stiff AV before the Russ is fielded, giving you some time to push before they are totally prepared.

That's probably the one thing that I hate about IG T2, for as good as the individual units are; it's very 1-dimensional. Your opponent isn't sweating having to load up on AV because soft AV like an autohavoc or artillery teams can completely negate the chimera which is basically your only assault vehicle. In practice, all they do is load up on as much AI and AoE that they possibly could and since IG struggle to reach T3 the tank shock that something like a Russ should deliver just never comes.

[Adeptus Noobus]

[...]That's probably the one thing that I hate about IG T2, for as good as the individual units are; it's very 1-dimensional. Your opponent isn't sweating having to load up on AV because soft AV like an autohavoc or artillery teams can completely negate the chimera which is basically your only assault vehicle. [...]

I disagree with that assessment. Normaly you would not drive your chimera straight into the Havoc unless you have "disabled" it somehow (Flare, etc.), but rather flank it. Killing a chimera can be quite crucial so a simple Autocannon might not do and failing to kill it fast, may give the IG player the upper hand soon (let us not forget, GMs are available like sand on a beach) precisely because their economy makes it possible to do with just the Chimera and 3x GMs eg. and go far a quick T3. This is 2v2/3v3 talk though. In 1v1 this might be entirely different but I believe there more than ever, from a certain players level onwards, you will not be able to kill a Chimera with an Autocannon Havoc because their control over their vehicles is to good. It is supposed to be a support vehicle anyway that stays in your backline.

TL;DR I don't think you can kill a Chimera with an Autocannon Havoc quite so easily.