Are Chaos Balanced?

[Torpid]

Not a leading question...

Really. I just want to hear people's opinions.

[Cyris]

I think Chaos is fine, especially after the next patch with Slaughter getting more reasonable and KDread being less anti-all. After that, Chaos has a few strong units and combos I consider borderline OP, but every faction has it's share of such things. From where I sit, Chaos has strong matchups and weak ones, and it's overall in a healthy place.

Oh, there are changes I'd make if given the opportunity, but I'm generally pleased. (1v1 perspective natch)

[DarnedDragoon]

Not a leading question...

Really. I just want to hear people's opinions.

Well they seem to be, I am a techmarine player, and everything seems to have a counter.

[Swift]

The delay on Slaughter isn't going to hamper them that badly, I don't think, but in the current state of the balance, well Slaughter is pretty good, but honestly I'm too bad to know what's good or bad

[Cheekie Monkie]

1v1 musings
The only answer I can think is an I...guesss...so?

Melee resist havocs still seem OTT due to the excellent counter initiation which Chaos roster has, including its heroes.
Waiting to see if double bloodcrushers will return with a vengeance in the next patch - frankly I'm terrified at the prospect.
Need to see how the XP change will change the whole tic dynamic - though I'd expect them to get even more rekt with the change to rites.
Slaughter will still slaughter - still very, very versatile.
Just a few more patches until the return of the NASCAR pred #kappa

A big problem is that there's a huge 1v1 player pool deficit, so it becomes hard to form a concrete opinion on some balance matters. What works against one Chaos player doesn't work against another, even if they're of relatively equal skill.

[Carnevour]

Weakest race in the game atm. In both team and 1v1s. Mainly 1v1s. Apart from Chaos Sorcerer the other 2 are underwhelming in all aspects. Considering the current meta revolves around supression teams and PC with CL have problems dealing with them, CL less so but still leap frog supression teams murder the faction without having any reasonable counter. And if you say raptors i will laugh my ass off. This is mainly from a 1v1 perspective mind you, chaos suffers from map control due to chaos being effective only when each of their units complements each other which is not the case where everything revolves around map control. For me personaly most of the chaos stuff was nerfed and made lackcluster albeit even deservengly. But you cannot disagree thta chaos took a significant nerf hammer to the face to many of its core units while the new ones being meh at best. (except for noise marines they are legit)
Now before i embrace the eggs being thrown towards my direction let me remind you its my own personal view on the subject matter.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Weakest race in the game atm. In both team and 1v1s. Mainly 1v1s. Apart from Chaos Sorcerer the other 2 are underwhelming in all aspects. Considering the current meta revolves around supression teams and PC with CL have problems dealing with them, CL less so but still leap frog supression teams murder the faction without having any reasonable counter. And if you say raptors i will laugh my ass off.

Raptors. Followed by GL tics. Let the laughing begin!

Seriously though, are raptors and GL tics underpowered? If so, how so and what should be done to improve them?

[Carnevour]

Weakest race in the game atm. In both team and 1v1s. Mainly 1v1s. Apart from Chaos Sorcerer the other 2 are underwhelming in all aspects. Considering the current meta revolves around supression teams and PC with CL have problems dealing with them, CL less so but still leap frog supression teams murder the faction without having any reasonable counter. And if you say raptors i will laugh my ass off.

Raptors. Followed by GL tics. Let the laughing begin!

Seriously though, are raptors and GL tics underpowered? If so, how so and what should be done to improve them?

Nade launcher tics are decent they do their job fine but as an anti supression squads they just flat out fail even with ground attack which i do all the time for them since they miss on moving targets. I consider raptors a poor man jump squad. They supress allowing the enemy to fight back or use abilities, their dmg is higher than asm but they lack durability as in they jump and then you pretty much have to press retreat or you are looking on some model losses. The champion in t2 has the knoback for 1 unit/hero which is the most useless thing ever, im guessing you can use it on heroes to knock them back but usually its the other squads that rip them a new one, so its kidna pointless esp when raptors are always energy starved for the next jump. So yeah they are a poor mans ASM underperforming in literaly everything except jumping and tying up a range squad. Currently they are a just a fancy hat that doesnt really do much but alteast they look and sound nice. And no im not saying that they need to be a go to unit each game but atleats they should be an effective viable unit.

[Sub_Zero]

Revert havocs back to their previous state. Remove "Slaughter" or actually make it balanced by introducing requirements, real requirements, not some hilarious 2 minute cooldown. My only complaints. And one other thing that I don't care that much about but I think it is not fair as well - heretics need not to give more XP.

Oh, another note. Why making bloodcrushers cheaper? Gotta come out faster on the field instead of this.

n t2 has the knoback for 1 unit/hero which is the most useless thing ever

Not at all. Things that can take out key targets are priceless. OP slugga boy nob? Fly away. Fragile banshee exarch? Fly away and while do so perish under enemy's fire. I do love the ability. I love it even more when it is gonna work as it was designed to. It also tracks. Can be deadly on retreating units. Just like KNOB's ability. I like overall raptors' performance and their ability to transform into a different unit.

[DandyFrontline]

I think not. But with those changes viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1656 it will be

[Vapor]

Melee resist havocs are the only complaint I have. Too difficult to dislodge them for races without snipers, since jump units get shredded instantly by doomblast into hero abilities.

Not sure what the problem was with them before. Now that even shees won't be able to chase them to base, there should be no issues keeping havocs alive in t1. Maybe grant melee resistance as a passive ability upon reaching t2, like the shoota nob thing?

[Atlas]

No I don't really think they are that balanced but I don't think it's that far off. It's always hard to get it right on a faction that is really just a collection of specialized units that excel in a particular category because if you tone them down there isn't much to replace it so you get that feeling that you can't nerf/buff x/y because it's so crucial to the Chaos composition.

I think that a lot has been done to address these concerns actually and I actually think, ironically, the biggest issues right now are when Chaos units become too general like the MoT Dread and the Slaughter on CSM.

[Crewfinity]

dunno about the other matchups but the Ork vs Chaos matchup feels borderline unwinnable as orks. with no generalized disruption in T1 its almost impossible to deal with well-microed havocs, stormboys are really tough to make work because of the amazing counter-initiation that chaos has. add noise marines and its just not even fun to play against

but i think that some of that might be a problem with orks rather than with chaos

[Tex]

No.

Yes.

Sort of?

The UP aspects and held up by the OP aspects. I think that's sort of how Cyris had put it.

UP
-crusher build time too long
-T1 raptors (although admittedly, these guys have a way different role than ASM)
-general map control and response time, in T1 especially
-huge resource sink to counter light vehicles ---> weak transitional AV


OP
-slaughter (cooldown and regen aren't the issues, its the fact that CSM under slaughter will destroy T2 sluggas in melee)
-slaughter continued ---> due to CSM being superior in melee where they shouldn't be, KCSM have been marginalized even further.
-Khorne Shrine
-MoT Dread
-If NM get into range and fire, they will complete their entire firing sequence. Complete rape.

[egewithin]

I consider raptors a poor man jump squad. They supress allowing the enemy to fight back or use abilities, their dmg is higher than asm but they lack durability as in they jump and then you pretty much have to press retreat or you are looking on some model losses. The champion in t2 has the knoback for 1 unit/hero which is the most useless thing ever, im guessing you can use it on heroes to knock them back but usually its the other squads that rip them a new one, so its kidna pointless esp when raptors are always energy starved for the next jump. So yeah they are a poor mans ASM underperforming in literaly everything except jumping and tying up a range squad. Currently they are a just a fancy hat that doesnt really do much but alteast they look and sound nice. And no im not saying that they need to be a go to unit each game but atleats they should be an effective viable unit.

They can shut down a whole army with suppression. After they land, move them forward and spread the suppression. If there are a supperessing squad, tie it up! That is it! Ofcource they will be weaker about health but stronger about damage against ASM. This is the way of Chaos in video games. Less health, more damage! Yes, they have an energy problem for second jump. But they are cheaper than ASM so ofcource they will have more problems than ASM. If they struggle vs 2 set up teams, grenade barrage first one than jump on the second one. There isn't anything that can not be countered in this game.

[Dark Riku]

-huge resource sink to counter light vehicles ---> weak transitional AV

I've never understood this complain from you. Just buy a new havoc or upgrade an already existing one. It's not a huge sink of resources.
Even after the vehicle has died the squad can be used to cap (sneaky gen bash) and is a major deterrent for future vehicles.
Or get some T2 unit that are capable of doing AV damage.

[Torpid]

-huge resource sink to counter light vehicles ---> weak transitional AV

I've never understood this complain from you. Just buy a new havoc or upgrade an already existing one. It's not a huge sink of resources.
Even after the vehicle has died the squad can be used to cap (sneaky gen bash) and is a major deterrent for future vehicles.
Or get some T2 unit that are capable of doing AV damage.

Indeed and chaos can often get away with just getting an autocannon havoc and one of their ever-reliable vehicles. Not to mention vs transports you have great transitional AV from both your noise marines and raptors in T1. I mean, what are we comparing this to? They have inferior AV to SM? Erm, not really, SM AV is horribly expensive. Melta bomb+missle launcher will struggle to kill a razorback compared to BM+power fist raptors but costs waaaay more and has waaaay less utility. IG? Ok, fair enough, IG get sentinel missles and catachans meltas and all the heroes do AV too. Orks are clearly the worst as the only transitional AV they get outside of their AV SUT is the HM stormboy nob... Nids get HM warriors, but then really the nids have the venom brood/TG out before you hit T2 anyway so that doesn't really count. Eldar get HM exarch on shees and...? Will they buy warp spiders? Well as chaos you could just get plague marines which are alone a harder AV counter then spiders+shees combined nevermind when you add in things like sigil or khorne worship (PC gets las-turrets so don't say PC is bad).

With regards to raptors being bad. Are you all mad? What on Earth do you want them to do? They are great tank hunters now in t3. They can solo sluggas with their nob and shees with their exarch in T2 with even greater ease than ASM can... Obviously your complaints must rest in their T1 performance but they are not ASM and are certainly not meant to be because 1) Chaos have tics, which gives them quite alot more options on defense compared to SM. 2) Chaos have havocs, which are awesome in T1. 3) Chaos have noise marines which serve as a ranged domination unit.

Myself. I think Chaos is largely balanced now excluded a few very overt issues in my mind - Melee resist havocs, blight grenades on the PC (too much damage up front, rather more DoT even if from the infection), slaughter on CSM, autocannon havocs.

I agree that the BC still needs to come out faster. A Sub-zero is right in that the req reduction cost just totally ignores the issue with the BC which is the time it takes to come out - it doesn't matter how cheap it is, that's 45 seconds I spent not building a different more influential T2 unit.

[[EL] The Emperor]

My only complaint is Slaughter but besides that I have no real problems with them. Maybe their set-up team is a little annoying with its near instant suppressing fire, but that's easily counter-able Tier 2 anyways (Their assault cannon is annoying perhaps needs a damage decrease perhaps?).

But yah besides that if anything they need some buffs for their gameplay because some things about them are pointless. But their real power lies in their Tier 1-2 firepower which is sometimes insurmountable, and quite annoying. Another thing is the Plague Champions grenade which is in my opinion annoying as hell! But what can you do?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

In which world AC Raptors could win against Sluggas + Nob + Burnas or against Banshees + Fleetness + Exarch? Maybe if they use Daemonic Fury on the Exarch/Nob could have a chance, because otherwise they will be owned.

[Torpid]

In which world AC Raptors could win against Sluggas + Nob + Burnas or against Banshees + Fleetness + Exarch? Maybe if they use Daemonic Fury on the Exarch/Nob could have a chance, because otherwise they will be owned.

Precisely that world and why the heck would they use it on anything else? If they jump on them first for suppression them use it they tend to beat both handily with ~40% of their hp remaining. They're awesome.

[Daddy]

Chaos is Fine. They have certain areas they excel at, but lots of ways they get countered. Chaos is in a good place.

Other races need more attention, like GK, IG and Nids.

[Tex]

In which world AC Raptors could win against Sluggas + Nob + Burnas or against Banshees + Fleetness + Exarch? Maybe if they use Daemonic Fury on the Exarch/Nob could have a chance, because otherwise they will be owned.

Precisely that world and why the heck would they use it on anything else? If they jump on them first for suppression them use it they tend to beat both handily with ~40% of their hp remaining. They're awesome.

You must have some replays held back where I didn't get to see this awesome play, dominating a dedicated melee squad with a jump squad.

The complaint with raptors is obviously with their T1 performance. They reside mainly in my "don't buy this unit unless you have to" choice list. With that said, if they were to be buffed in T1 with a lower jump cost (exactly what they freaking need...) then I would gladly accept a nerf to their T2 over performance (I do believe that the powerfist and melta is a bit much for what you pay). These guys bleed just about as bad as stormboyz in T1... not quite, but just about.

Nobody said that T3 raptors are a burden in anyway. We all know what they do to fire prisms.

-huge resource sink to counter light vehicles ---> weak transitional AV

I've never understood this complain from you. Just buy a new havoc or upgrade an already existing one. It's not a huge sink of resources.
Even after the vehicle has died the squad can be used to cap (sneaky gen bash) and is a major deterrent for future vehicles.
Or get some T2 unit that are capable of doing AV damage.

Sometimes I forget that you play the skill lord, so I guess its fair to say you have a pretty good handle on the situation as well. Oh wait, the skill lord is a T1 bully who almost never gets stuck behind in tech because he is/was (not sure if he has finally been brought in line with the CS and PC) inherently better than the other chaos heros. Seriously, playing CL is/was(?) like putting a negative handicap on your opponent.

Transitional AV is AV which can be purchased on the fly. Is it fair to say chaos has weak transitional AV? Lets see:

Possible AV transitions:

-KCSM (AV located on AC, melta gun) ----> transition cost = 75/25 + 70/30 = 145/55 + 60/15 for EW to be realistic...
-Raptors (AV located on AC, powerfist and melta gun) ----> transition cost = 80/25
-Havok (las cannon upgrade) ----> transition cost = 75/0
-Havok (auto cannon upgrade) ----> transition cost = 65/15
-Noise Marines (blast master upgrade) ----> transition cost = 75/0

Okay so at first glace we go, wow tex, your dumb. Now, lets add some reality to this mix shall we?

KCSM used as AV is the most expensive choice in this list, and far more expensive than the apparently awful prices SM have to pay. I'm not making a direct comparison, I'm just channeling torpid. If this commitment doesn't kill a vehicle, you have completely overspent on trying to counter a transport and worse yet, you are now stuck with a unit that isn't particularly good in large fights (which happen more as the game progresses).

Raptors seem to be an amazing choice for transitional AV in this respect, and truly, they can threaten transports or ranged walkers. Something to note however, is that the AC on T2 raptors, with all the improvements/buffs he has received, will surely need a nerf or a price increase. As well, this transition cost also assumes you already have raptors.
Let that sink in for a moment. You already have raptors. This means you used raptors in T1. This also means you don't have a havok OR you had a huge T1 (which most often means you will be behind in tech). This also means your opponent was able to punish you for using raptors in T1 by bleeding you with a greater sense of impunity from range since there is going to be a larger window of time where no havok is present.

Bottom line here is I view the transitional cost of raptors AV as 480/65, not 80/25. This is more expensive than plague marines...

So havoks have a fantastic las cannon. Nobody can argue this. The weak part of it's transition is that not only is the upgrade obvious, it is also disabling. Please explain to me how that is not a WEAK transition when you are hanging in the air and your weapon has to set up again after it has been completed. Please keep in mind, I'm not complaining about this, what I am doing is supporting my case that CHAOS DOES INDEED HAVE WEAK TRANSITION AV, just as I said.

Havok auto-cannon upgrade. Same deal. No argument as far as the weapon being awesome, but it completely loses that oh so important element of upgrade surprise in the period of time where transitional AV can be make or break.

NM blast master. I definitely does AV. Calling it transitional AV might be a stretch. How many shots is this going to get off? Is it going to deter an advance from the vehicle? And most importantly, what are the odds that it will actually hit?
Tell you what, I tried using my blastmaster as transitional AV against PhatE and he made me pay dearly for it. He was surprised by the first shot, but from there it was an immediate shift into scouting with a hero, and then flanking with the vehicle.

So what can we take from this?

Havoks are your only true transitional AV unit, and when they do decide to upgrade, it is obvious, and disabling. Purchasing a squad of havoks once I see a vehicle means there is a good chance my powerfarm is gone anyway.
The closest second would be the KCSM seeing as how you are going to have a CSM squad in 99% of 1v1 matches. And this is a horribly expensive and potentially dooming purchase.

I feel like this is the best way I could put it out there to explain my previous statement about chaos having "weak transitional AV".

PS, sorry for being a dick Riku. Its just the way our fates intertwine.

[Dark Riku]

Sometimes I forget that you play the skill lord, so I guess its fair to say you have a pretty good handle on the situation as well. Oh wait, the skill lord is a T1 bully who almost never gets stuck behind in tech because he is/was (not sure if he has finally been brought in line with the CS and PC) inherently better than the other chaos heros. Seriously, playing CL is/was(?) like putting a negative handicap on your opponent.

I'm not going to reply properly to this ignorant rant. You're not looking at this from a neutral perspective.

Okay so at first glace we go, wow tex, your dumb. Now, lets add some reality to this mix shall we?

Could have fooled me that this is reality.

[Caeltos]

Why can't people accept that people have different opinions then others.

Torpid is good
Tex is good
Dark Riku is good
Blah blah blah

You get the jest. You're all good players, and your take on units & their performance is all over the place. People have their own preference of methods of how to play, or how to utilize squads. It's almost reminisence to how people think scouts are terrible, whereas some others find scouts just fine, or damn strong.

Trying to convey and make people think otherwise is difficult. Say your peace, and be done with it. Bring forth the pros and cons, but don't sit and say "Well you're doing it wrong", or "Lol, no they're not lolololollolololollolololollolololollolololol" that's hardly constructive. Ending on that note, I've said it before, if you don't have anything constructive or elaborate to say, don't say it all. Just leave it. It's aggrovating and annoying having to read it. It's also downright pointless, unless you're looking for some sort of confrontation.

[Torpid]

@ Tex - Again, what are you comparing chaos to here? You do compare their AV options to SM and while it is true that SM have the "surprise advantage" they are pretty much the only race that has that. In theory eldar have it too with a WS teleport in and a banshee exarch purchase mid-fight, but getting WS out and upgraded and timing that right is pretty hard to do against an opponent who knows what they're doing and doesn't leave their vehicle completely unsupported in your territory around that time... no other race gets surprise advantages in terms of AV except the inquisitor really. Chaos Sorceror btw totally does, you can warp in Tdreads, las-havocs, plague marines from nowhere, or even, as you say yourself, khorne marines, although really you should only get them for AV vs IG since IG only has the chimera and KCSM perform admirably vs the rest of the IG T2 composition.

Basically your argument seems to be that chaos have less of a surprise advantage than SM, therefore CSM have inferior AV to SM and also inferior AV to all other races? I don't even get where you're coming from. How is eldar's transitional AV any better? How is the ork transitional AV better? I still don't think that SM transitional AV 'is better' - sure you get a surprise advantage but for melta+missle you are paying a whopping 70 power for something that is useless vs infantry and gimped your performance vs infantry respectively. That's not objectively 'better AV' at all. All the chaos AV has supplementary benefits vs non-vehicle things bar the chaos havoc which is your go to hard AV option, and you will have a havoc in T1 anyway, yet that supplementary AV chaos gets really doesn't underperform as AV for the price either, case in point being khorne havocs, plague marines and so on.

It seems that you literally are just talking about "transitional AV" as in, they can't do surprise attacks with their AV. Well no-shit, but what's your point? That doesn't mean their AV is worse or needs a buff or anything like that. Really it's a non-sequitur on its own. You see, if you recall what you said in the first place you said that chaos transitional AV is bad and that this is a UP aspect of chaos. Under your definition of transitional AV that's true, but what you failed to point out is that once you get the chaos out it's really cost-efficient, more so than most other races. You never mentioned that in your "OP" section and that's because it isn't OP, it balances out with that lack of transitional AV and the chaos specialisation thing - but the whole gripe is that since it balances out you shouldn't have put their poor transitional AV as a UP part of the race as it isn't deserving of buffs and generally that's what UP means.

Also, what's this about raptors in T1 being so bad? Raptors are great when combined with either havocs or noise marines, not both mind you. Havocs and NM themselves beating pretty much every composition that raptors themselves fail to handle. You obviously don't get raptors alone because that clearly won't deal with layered suppression or blobbing of suppression and counter-initiation tools, but I thought we were talking about 1v1 here - the game mode in which using multiple tics for gen bashing and pressuring map control was viable, the game mode in which using worship on your CL combined with NM can counter SUTs or using your PC with BG alongside NM or your havoc suppression can counter SUTs or hell, just splitting up your ranged units and focusing them down from different angles can deal with SUTs. Lure his blob elsewhere - if he doesn't move over with his blob to defend his power you take it; you go req heavy it's no loss to you to get counter-bashed as you take his power out and are left with a superior army for a map control advantage and likely bleeding him more. I could go on but I feel like you have forgot some of the fundamentals to chaos 1v1 play in your brief absence Tex!

And also, the CL is assuredly weaker than the CS in 1v1. Assuredly. My apo can handle a good CL any day, but a good CS? Not a hope in hell. Totally different MU entirely. And it sure isn't just that MU either, although the CL probably does fare better vs orks if nothing else, but he is worse vs IG, worse vs nids, worse in mirrors, worse vs SM and roughly even vs eldar although sigil and infiltration worship really are making me consider him favoured over the combi-bolter/malignant blindness and LTGB... CL is better vs GK though!

[Tex]

I feel like I laid out my argument pretty well to support my statement that "chaos has weak transitional AV". I just wanted to state that again as I don't want to detract from the opinion based nature of this thread.

I will now respond to your paragraphs in sequence, instead of filling the page with quoted sections.

1) SM are not the only race that has the "surprise advantage". Shurikans can upgrade into brightlance as they continue to fire and don't have to set up again. HWT can do this. Fairly certain lootas can do this. Zoans are godlike. Venoms are super good etc etc... ????,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,./////????
And yes, I know quite well what the CS is capable of.

2) Ummm... imagine that Jackie Chan meme right here.

3) I made very little mention of "buff this" or what have you. In fact, the only buff in that entire piece I was asking for was a trade off for improved T1 performance from raptors in exchange for reduced performance in T2. Please read closer, or maybe not as close? Tell you what, by the time you get your awesome specialist AV out, has your gen farm been burned down? Like I'm going to read my post again, but seriously... what are you even getting at?

4) Ummm...

5) Torpid. Please. Sometimes you have to view things in more general terms. I am intimately aware of the fact that the CS has a much higher skill ceiling and potential than the CL. Not all people play at the top of this level like you can for an entire tournament.
I just looked at the 1v1 statistics available for Elite, and the chaos lord not only has a higher win percentage, but also has more than twice the games partaken in, suggesting a higher level of accuracy in win %.

[Toilailee]

I'm ignoring the rest of the thread.

And also, the CL is assuredly weaker than the CS in 1v1. Assuredly. My apo can handle a good CL any day, but a good CS? Not a hope in hell. Totally different MU entirely.

Since as long as I can remember SM has been concidered the worst mu for chaos and even more so for CS. What exactly does a good sorc do that makes it so hard on your apo (apart from doombolts)? I'm genuinely interested.

[Atlas]

I'm ignoring the rest of the thread.

And also, the CL is assuredly weaker than the CS in 1v1. Assuredly. My apo can handle a good CL any day, but a good CS? Not a hope in hell. Totally different MU entirely.

Since as long as I can remember SM has been concidered the worst mu for chaos and even more so for CS. What exactly does a good sorc do that makes it so hard on your apo (apart from doombolts)? I'm genuinely interested.

It's not what the Sorc does against the SM hero but rather what he does against the SM T1.5 - T2.5 in general combined with the warp global and awesome wargears. His sigil all but nullifies Devastators which leaves ASM as the only viable T1.5 option.

However, the minute Sorc hits T2 he can get Robes of Torment and that combined with just Tics and starting Doombolts can put a huge dent in ASM as well. He also deals with Pdevs easily and can come at you with freak fast AV which makes Rbacks and Whirlwinds an iffy proposition.

In T3, Terminators are basically a non option for a number of reasons.

Basically compared to the CL and PC, the Sorc does the most to make the SM army one-dimensional and predictable. He doesn't solve issues with scouts (although you can do the tele armor + flame sword if you really want) but he does a lot to help mitigate the kinds of versatile threats SM are usually good at. Yes, you might force him to swap out wargears but that's not as bad as you might think it is.

While I don't think it's an auto-win for Sorc, I do think it's a close to fair matchup. I'd only consider it Sorc favored if the SM player doesn't use a lot of scouts for whatever reason.

[Carnevour]

I dont understand the OP tbh. You made a topic about what people think about the balance of Chaos and people have exrpessed their oppinions, yet you are getting salty over other people oppinions. Why bother with the topic at all? Also i agree with tex. In regards to the raptor performance in t1, you suggest to buy raptors with havocs and NM's in a 1v1 environment which is already 70 power for 2 units that have quite a large upkeep just to dominate fights in t1 - t1.5. Yet you will still be splitting forces for map control so the duo is kinda pointless unless you make a b-line for the enemies power and yet the enemy still can counter bash and you will be sitting in t1 even longer. In regards to CS being superior in SM vs Chaos lel. Also i dont not understand the whole thing about getting blight grenades on PC, its one of the worst wargear to get on him.

[Torpid]

I dont understand the OP tbh. You made a topic about what people think about the balance of Chaos and people have exrpessed their oppinions, yet you are getting salty over other people oppinions. Why bother with the topic at all? Also i agree with tex. In regards to the raptor performance in t1, you suggest to buy raptors with havocs and NM's in a 1v1 environment which is already 70 power for 2 units that have quite a large upkeep just to dominate fights in t1 - t1.5. Yet you will still be splitting forces for map control so the duo is kinda pointless unless you make a b-line for the enemies power and yet the enemy still can counter bash and you will be sitting in t1 even longer. In regards to CS being superior in SM vs Chaos lel. Also i dont not understand the whole thing about getting blight grenades on PC, its one of the worst wargear to get on him.

I'm not getting salty, I'm debating. I do this all the time. I just wanted to hear a few perspectives from other folks first before I laid out my own thought hitherto.