Eldar Faction is way under powered and Forgotten

[Dark Riku]

What is a faction war champion? Srsly what could FW possibly have to with a championship of any kind?

FW represend everything that is wrong with the current state of this game and thus I've come to despise them. Just get it through to your heads alredy that FW are there just to satisfy the fluff fanboys and have absolutely nothing to with balance or tournaments.

/rant

I don't think anyone is saying that Faction Wars are anything like That Toil
But the current winning race is referred to as the champion. Just a choice of words ^^

[Toilailee]

What is a faction war champion? Srsly what could FW possibly have to with a championship of any kind?

FW represend everything that is wrong with the current state of this game and thus I've come to despise them. Just get it through to your heads alredy that FW are there just to satisfy the fluff fanboys and have absolutely nothing to with balance or tournaments.

/rant

I don't think anyone is saying that Faction Wars are anything like That Toil
But the current winning race is referred to as the champion. Just a choice of words ^^

You if any1 should know what the discussion in youtube comments is like.

[Dark Riku]

I meant in here. The "people" in the YT comments say many mind destroying things

[The Exarch]

I love the faction wars, It's something i enjoy watching whenever i cant play the game myself. And Indrid dose a great job commenting on them.

[The Exarch]

Man i never imagined that my original post would become a general discussion forum lol

[ytimk]

People who cant/dont play but love to watch Elite represent!

Nothing wrong with liking the fluff, but using/invoking it in relation to anything balance wise is really hurr.

Also chill out about dumb Youtube comments, they aren't going anywhere, but they already are scoffed at and rightly so. Counter the idiots, praise the caster/players/good or funny plays you saw.

Faction wars are just fun to watch, hope they continue simply because they are rare. But to me 3v3s in general are fun to watch not just due to the action, but seeing different factions working together (eg WB buffs on other factions units, Chimera/Razorback reinforcing Bloodletters, Gates transporting non Eldar etc) - novelty, exciting rare plays making something unexpected work.

[Hellstar]

And the changes aren't "nerfs", by any means. It might be taken abit out of context. Since they are being primarily reworked. That means they are being shifted abit in their statistical values , both in a positive and negative way to find a better spot. For an ex of this;

- Wraithguard damage reduced
- Wraithguard can fire on the move

You are given one positive, but it is quite a substantial one. The damage reduction has broader implication, as it may require the squad to fire an additional volley to kill something. The change also allow the Wraithguard to be applied more purely pressure wise, whereas in their current state, they are quite potent for a very stalemate fight, or defensive nature.

Alot of the changes in the Eldar rework update gives & takes to the Eldar army.

Just a pure subjective opinion or comment from an outsider/interloper, so take it however you want. In my experience with other games, I personally have never liked the faction which is underpowered in a straight fight, but has speed and "guerilla warfare." Also, in my experience with the lore, the eldar aren't "weak" in a straight fight, and although they have something like "fleet of foot" in the table top game, it is more of a small perk rather than some faction-wide "weak in an up-front fight, good in guerilla warfare" type of thing.

If you want to develop some kind of army theme with them (entirely understandable), I'd say just look to the lore and you'll find more than enough to work with. I think a lot of stuff they already have (avatar, d-cannons, wraithguard, spellcasters, webway gates, etc) has potential in itself to give them a certain "flavor," and none of it needs to be watered-down in order to provide said flavor.

They seem already fragile enough and glass-cannony as it is in my opinion. I personally wouldn't go further in that direction. Having said all of that, I don't know where your player base stands on any of this. Perhaps a lot of them are clamoring for the changes you are considering? If so, do what you want.

[Torpid]

Just a pure subjective opinion or comment from an outsider/interloper, so take it however you want. In my experience with other games, I personally have never liked the faction which is underpowered in a straight fight, but has speed and "guerilla warfare." Also, in my experience with the lore, the eldar aren't "weak" in a straight fight, and although they have something like "fleet of foot" in the table top game, it is more of a small perk rather than some faction-wide "weak in an up-front fight, good in guerilla warfare" type of thing.

If you want to develop some kind of army theme with them (entirely understandable), I'd say just look to the lore and you'll find more than enough to work with. I think a lot of stuff they already have (avatar, d-cannons, wraithguard, spellcasters, webway gates, etc) has potential in itself to give them a certain "flavor," and none of it needs to be watered-down in order to provide said flavor.

They seem already fragile enough and glass-cannon as it is in my opinion. I personally wouldn't go further in that direction. Having said all of that, I don't know where your player base stands on any of this. Perhaps a lot of them are clamoring for the changes you are considering? If so, do what you want.

On the contrary, these changes seemingly arbitrarily change eldar from what it meant to be. The DA having their exarch in T1 removes their need from The rangers nerfs mean that snipers in general are less effective and less key to eldar play and snipers are hit and run units by definition. The banshee nerf means that they will be like any other generic melee unit, except slightly more expensive in T1 - they lose their retreat killing potential that is meant to be a distinct trait of eldar.

That said, everyone does seem to enjoy crying about banshees. It's silly really though considering we all know what they can do. It's reminiscent of when people cry about the BC being too easy to kill on retreat because of his speed. Erm, no, because of his speed you retreat earlier with him than you do other heroes. He isn't easy to kill, he has massive amounts of hp and knockback immunity for a reason.

[Hellstar]

Where are the patch notes which describe all the changes? Are they here?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1642

If so, I can't see anything related to banshees being changed from being able to run down retreating units, and I don't see other changes I've heard discussed.

[Swift]

Banshees are getting a leap instead of a charge. It's what makes Stormboys such GREAT retreat killers

Tabletop is not the direction you want to go at all. In tabletop, especially the latest Eldar release in 2013, the faction became entirely broken. They're massively overpowered in tabletop and the way they work in DoW II is not just a watered down SM list, they fight in a very distinct way that isn't guerilla warfare, it's synergy, tactics and positional play, which is incredibley powerful in order to make up for their straight up lack of hp. It's why a lot of bad players struggle with Eldar, they don't yet have the micro/macro to ensure they pull the faction off properly.

I thought Eldar were in a solid place, despite Banshees retreat wiping, even if it is perhaps a little too cheesy. The Ranger nerf has removed a dimension from their play that I try in vain to include, but the games I buy Rangers are the games I lose most often (or lose earlier, depending on who I am facing).

[Wise Windu]

Those notes are all based on the beta build I think. The others were deleted with the update thread. Here they are

Code: Select all

### Eldar ###

* Webway Gate Rejuvenation Field ability duration increased from 10 to 15 seconds
* Webway Gate Restoration Field effect no longer affects the Wraithlord
* Entangling Web moved from T2 to T1
* Entangling Web cost reduced from 120/30 to 115/30
* Entangle duration reduced from 7 to 5 seconds
* Entangle cooldown increased from 50 to 60 seconds
* Enhanced Warp Jump Generator cost increased from 100/25 to 120/30
* Shimmer Orb no longer makes units inside the orb immune to special attacks/knockdown.
* Shimmer Orb cooldown increased from 60 to 80 seconds
* Heart of Darkness reworked -
* Heart of Darkness now unlocks "Enhance" ability that allows a squad to excel in combat, increasing their movement speed by +3  and increases the squads damage by 25%. This ability does not stack. (Sorry Providence). Cooldown 50s , energy cost 40
* Gravity Blade Shuriken Pistol damage increased from 6 to 30
* Gravity Blade Shuriken Pistol reload duration reduced from 3-3 to 2-2
* Dire Avenger Exarch moved from T2 to T1
* Dire Avenger Exarch now detects in a small radius of 15
* Aspect of the Avenger no longer grants additional health to the squad.
* Dire Avenger Exarch melee dps reduced down to 20,64 from 24,29
* Dire Avenger Exarch Aura & Embolden still require T2
* Dire Avenger Exarch Aura ranged damage resistance increased from 17,5% to 25%
* Banshee passive leap from early days restored
* Banshee damage reduction to retreating units removed
* Banshee Exarch Power Sword special attack damage increased from 20 to 24
* Ranger Kinetic Shot cooldown reduced from 80 to 70 seconds
* Wraithlord cost reduced from 450/110 down to 425/100
* Wraithlord health reduced from 1200 to 1000
* Falcon can now use "Skimmer" ability that increases the movement speed of the Falcon by +3 for 6 seconds. During this time, the Falcon is unable to fire any of it's gun. Cooldown 70s. Energy cost 40
* D-cannon damage reduced from 220 to 110
* D-cannon now deals up to 120 damage over 3s near impact area.
* Avatar Aura radius increased from 20 to 32
* Wraithguard can now fire on the move with 50% accuracy
* Wraithguard sight reduce from 40(5) down to 30(5)
* Wraithguard speed reduced from 3 to 2.5
* Wraithguard health increased from 666,7(?) up to 750
* Wraithguard wind-up from 1.0 to 1.25 , weapon reload duration from 1.75 to 1.5.
* Wraithguard damage reduced from 144 to 122, courage damage reduced from 30 to 20
* Wraithguard cost increased from 400/50 to 400/60
* Reduced the movement speed bonus on Wraithguards from Wraithsight from 1.5 to 1.0
* Fire Dragon speed increased from 5.5 to 6.5
* Fire Dragon courage increased from 100 to 200
* Fire Dragon cost increased from 300/25 to 360/30
* Dragons Fury no longer increases the squads movement speed by +2. It's new benefits are as follows; + 100%+ more accuracy (for fire on the move purposes) and 50% weapon cooldown reduction.
* Seer Council aura range increased from 22 to 32
* Seer Council aura no longer reduces incoming courage damage.
* Seer Council aura now reduce incoming ranged damage by 15%.
* Fire Prism speed increased from 6.0 to 6.5
* Fire Prism acceleration decreased to 6 from 10
* Fire Prism deceleration increased to 10 from 8
* Fire Prism rotation rate decreased from 250 to 150
* Fire Prism main cannon tracking speed increased from 75 to 150
* Autarch Forcefield cost decreased from 75/30 to 75/25
* Dark Reaper health increased from 150 to 175
* Dark Reaper dps reduced from 16,04 down to 14,436 (damage reduced from 27.5 to 25)

[Hellstar]

Those notes are all based on the beta build I think. The others were deleted with the update thread. Here they are

Good Lord that's a lot of nerfage of Eldar!

What kind of feedback have the beta-testers provided for these changes? Positive?

Any way to put those patch notes where the other (old) ones are, rather than have them buried in this thread?

Thanks for the info.

[Dark Riku]

Nerfs? °_O Whut.
Eldar got changes and buffs mostly with a small amount of nerfs.

[Atlas]

Those Fire Dragon changes excite me

[Caeltos]

You haven't seen the best bits. The beta got another beta update, after the first one. And Eldar gameplay just fired up a ramp a notch.

I'll quote Myrdal when I spoke to him about it. And I'm really happy over how the change we did panned out purely gameplay wise.

"That was a genius move" -
"Probably the best changelog note in the patch"
"It might be too good"

It worked out so well in context with everything else that got changed. It allows for so much mechanic expertise, and really rewards players for doing specific things in conjunction with one thing and another, as well as empthasize on timing and not wasting precise moments. It's really what goes hand-in-hand with the eldar theme that I want to go with.

This patch is really coming along really good now. There's more long-term goal, but the solution to solving those are abit more problematic, and requires abit more thought put into them, so those are planned for a later moment. But hopefuly with the patch, we'll get more interesting games.

[Torpid]

You haven't seen the best bits. The beta got another beta update, after the first one. And Eldar gameplay just fired up a ramp a notch.

I'll quote Myrdal when I spoke to him about it. And I'm really happy over how the change we did panned out purely gameplay wise.

"That was a genius move" -
"Probably the best changelog note in the patch"
"It might be too good"

It worked out so well in context with everything else that got changed. It allows for so much mechanic expertise, and really rewards players for doing specific things in conjunction with one thing and another, as well as empthasize on timing and not wasting precise moments. It's really what goes hand-in-hand with the eldar theme that I want to go with.

This patch is really coming along really good now. There's more long-term goal, but the solution to solving those are abit more problematic, and requires abit more thought put into them, so those are planned for a later moment. But hopefuly with the patch, we'll get more interesting games.

How long? I really want to get into eldar again? How long till patch Caeltos. Pleeease, how long??? I need my ranked matchmaking D:

[Wise Windu]

Soon™

[Atlas]

You guys already put matchmaking back in and I thought that was pretty effing awesome.

I gotta admit Caeltos, if you're bringing in that kind of HYPUUUUU with a post like that it better blow our collective socks off!

[Swift]

"That was a genius move" -
"Probably the best changelog note in the patch"
"It might be too good"

HYPE

[Vapor]

* Rangers now create zombies on kill





Kappa

[egewithin]

* Rangers now create zombies on kill





Kappa

Waaattt?

[Swift]

* Rangers now create zombies on kill





Kappa

But Rangers can't kill anything...

[Dalakh]

* Rangers now create zombies on kill

Kappa

But Rangers can't kill anything...

Only thing you can bleed are tics... you know, these guys whose zombies you can use doomblast on...

Kappa

[Lichtbringer]

It's really annoying if theres an upcoming big update to your faction, and you know only tidbits of it.
It would be ok, but then there are people who know more than you, and it gets talked about on Streams and stuff.

If I would want to discuss any of the changes right now, someone would come and say:
"but look at this!".
me:"that was not in the notes."
"Yeah, well... you can't see the full notes".

"Please leave your feedback & suggestions on the forums!"

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1642

How am I supossed to do that when in the very thread, only 7 changes are listed Caeltos? )=
How am I supossed to give feedback on the banshee leap when I can't play the version? Maybe it is even a buff, but right now with just what i have it looks like a big nerf.

You guys shouldn't be suprised when many people are worried about the changes and make threads like this one...
I know I don't have the full picture and that's why I don't comment on the changes. And I think thats sad, especially if I have to listen to other people talking...
It makes it a very depressing atmosphere sometimes... Doesn't really feel like a good inclusive community...


None the less, this isn't to take away from all the amazing (and timeconsuming) work Caeltos and Windu and everyone else put into it.
Thanks for that. I know you guys will balance the game right.

[Caeltos]

The reason is because they're very much a work in progress. Nothing is set in stone, which I'd say half the community doesn't seem to understand. I prefer to have a limited access, because it keeps the feedback more controlled in the sense, you know the players and their abilities to play the game, and the angle from where they're coming from. Hench why it's abit selected process to gain access to it.

The current update we've got coming is not even available to most of the people who even had access to the 2.3.2 beta. Mostly because we're trying to get the proper things added, and try to avoid some glaring bug issues we had in the initial release.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Can't we all just simply wait for the patch to arrive, see the full list of final changes and THEN discuss them? The changes I read in the changelog provided by Windu do at no point hint to the Eldar Faction having been forgoten or being underpowered.

Let the devs do their work first.

[crazyman64335]

you guys are all noobs

faction wars is the perfect example of showcasing whether a faction is balanced or not of course















Kappa

[Crewfinity]

you guys are all noobs

faction wars is the perfect example of showcasing whether a faction is balanced or not of course

crazyman we miss you
plz take us back

[ytimk]

crazyman we miss you
plz take us back

[Toilailee]

you guys are all noobs

faction wars is the perfect example of showcasing whether a faction is balanced or not of course

crazyman we miss you
plz take us back

It's like they say, you only appreciate some1 after they're gone.