Plague Champion vs Brother Captain

[Adeptus Noobus]

Hello everyone,

I need some help with this matchup. The other day I faced the Brother-Captain whilst playing the Plague Champion (in a 3v3) and found myself unable to stop even a single one of his attacks. My BO was: CSM-Havocs-Raptors in T1 and then Letters in T2. Since I was doubled quite a few times there is no point in talking about the rest of T2 or even T3.

Here is my problem - The opponent went for Interceptors, 2x IST and 1x SS and in T2 for Purifiers and Purgation with Psycannons. The Interceptors were simply too much to deal with (though I completely forgot to counter them with the Sword) in combination with the BC charging in and making a mess everywhere. ToN Heretics were not helping either. After the Purifiers hit the field it was simply too much melee to deal with. I successfully shut down the IST or the SS with the Raptors but was still getting torn apart over and over again by all that melee. The Interceptors + BC need too much attention from my army to effectively deal with the ranged stuff.

I was thinking about what Torpid said, that GK do not deal with melee very well themselves (which I find odd looking at their roster).
Now the question part 1: Does it make more sense to get the Bile Spewer to try to control Interceptors and more important the BC than trying to counter the Interceptors with the Sword? If there are not Interceptors I would now always choose to do so because the Bilious Discharge is awesome.

Part 2: Considering the melee prowess of the GK I was considering Doggie + Letters in T2, leaving my T1 BO as it is.

My own conclusion is to get the Bile Spewer, slow the Interceptors and Brother-Captain, wait for the Raptors to shut down ranged fire and fight my way into T2 for the Doggie to shut down ranged units for good and the Letters to have a unit that can go toe to toe with the Purifiers (under worship ofc). The Havocs would get the MoK upgrade if I see no Dreadnoughts and serve as the backline support for the Letters + TCSM.

I have not yet tested this but I think it might work. I am looking forward to your input.

[Torpid]

I always found plague sword the best. I mean that thing melts through interceptors. The BC is not too troublesome in T1 and can largely be ignored. I like the tic, csm, csm, havoc, tic build vs GK as CSM. Once you get 2TCSM in T2 they are doomed, plus it means they can't abuse that SHI rhino so much. The 2csm can handle IST at range and do a lot to shut down the BC alongside the havoc and with 2 tics and the plague sword PC IST die very fast when they try to jump your havocs.

In T2 I like getting the BC because it skews their eco by forcing them to get req heavy AV, then you get the TCSM and bleed their IST, SS and purg models ceaselessly at range. Then BLs just because they are your melee superiority unit that does decently against purifiers, especially alongside 2x TCSM and they also counter-initiate GKI in T2 as well as the BC rather well (especially under worship). If they get a GK dread I just get a second havoc and give it a las-cannon, give my first one the MoK, now that you have melee-resist on havocs it's much easier to keep your las-havocs on the field even with a halberd-teleporting-bc lurking about.

[Carnevour]

Word of advice dont play plague champion in 1v1. He is the weakest of the 3, he is slow and his worship doesnt benefit 1v1s where map control is key to victory. But if you are planing to continue to play as PC you should consider your attention to one side of the map and make pushes to your enemy power, disloging a pc with worship is hella hard. Also get bile spewer and just slow that fat fuck in his tracks. Biggest drawback of GK is that they dont have long range supression team.

[Tex]

I gave Cyris a lot of trouble by using the plague sword and breath of nurgle. He was unable to tie up my CSM for very long, and with the support from breath of nurgle, his SS couldn't hang in there long enough to inflict bleed in melee scuffles against my CSM's. Also, the plague sword literally annihilates the BC.

Just focus on moving from green cover to green cover with your csm, and have your heretics cleverly placed at maximum worship range.

It's called "the wall" for a reason.

[Adeptus Noobus]

First of all let mal thank you for your input.

Word of advice dont play plague champion in 1v1.

The game I was referring to was a 3v3. I don't 1v1 (yet) and when I will, I will not choose him (in the beginning)^^ Having thought about the Bile Spewer again, I think the Bilious Discharge does not give you enough to choose the Bile Spewer over the Sword. The 50 dps (actually 60 since its Heavy Infantry mostly) and ignoring melee resistance should give you more than the Spewer.

Just focus on moving from green cover to green cover with your csm, and have your heretics cleverly placed at maximum worship range.

That was what I did. I would have continued to do so but Interceptors made that quite impossible. I will try the Sword though next time to counter-initiate. Ignoring melee resistance helps in this instance.

I like the tic, csm, csm, havoc, tic build vs GK as CSM.

I usually go for 2x CSM too but in this instance I was banking on the raptors and the Plague Champion to do the trick but that was nonsense in hindsight. Why would you get the second Heretic squad though?

[Crewfinity]

I can't really speak for torpid here but having 2 heretics is always nice, especially as the plague champ. If you find yourself bleeding a lot then you can just keep one or two models by your base constantly worshipping to get back on field faster. It's also nice to have 1 AC tic for counter initiation or TON and another giving worship support during engagements. especially with bloodletters, who are really good against GK in general.

Also two sources of repair really helps with keeping vehicles on the front line, with only 1 tic you sometimes have to choose between repairing, worshipping, or capping. Having another low upkeep squad lets you use it to cap whole you blob push with the rest of your army

[Ven]

it sounds like your first problem was not getting the sword. it ignores melee resist and is power melee so it litterally is one of the best jump squad counters in T1.
2nd mistake was getting letters vs.... DEAMON HUNTERS!? why does everyone insist getting letters vs a faction that not only in lore owns deamons, but in-game aswell. energy burst and basically every other GK T2 unit and upgrade counters letters to a T, with a combination of energy drain, snare and ability knockback, not to mention mind blades, BC weapon upgrades and hellfury. DO NOT GET LETTERS VS GK.

but mainly, it sounds like most if not all of your problems would of been solved by getting the sword in T1, and getting tzzetch marines in T2. you could of always gotten a lascannon if a vehicle showed up.

when im fighting GK i usually get either double csm + raptors, or double havocs, depending on what he has. i then go in to a K dread, or plague marines if im behind in tech but can still hold my lane. the only melee i every get VS GK is things like jump squads (not letters), and the heroes themselves.

I usually go for 2x CSM too but in this instance I was banking on the raptors and the Plague Champion to do the trick but that was nonsense in hindsight. Why would you get the second Heretic squad though?

why wouldnt you? use one to fight, one to worship, or use both to fight, they're incredibly cost effeicient and GL tics scale fairly well and can be used to knock things over when you jump in your raptors or run in with your hero/ AC tics.

[Crewfinity]

Ummmm I disagree with your stance on bloodletters, Ven.
yeah SS has the energy burst ability, but under worship bloodletters regen so much health and energy that it really doesn't make too much of a difference. Plus, that means that the energy burst won't be used on your hero, which gives you time to approach. Letters also shred interceptors, SS, and purgations. With worship support they can go toe to toe with purifiers. They also perform very well against the brother captain and SHI rhino. The biggest counters the GK player can get to them is the librarian, a GK dread, or really going all in with purifiers and support.

Purifiers aren't great vs chaos(especially the PC) and letters counter them for cheaper anyway.

Librarian is good but that opens him up a lot to vehicle plays by the chaos player, because their best T2 AV (vindicare) doesn't fit well compositionally.

Dread will lose to your KDread, so that's alright too.

Bloodletters really bleed GK hard, especially in conjunction with TCSM and autocannon havocs.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I second Crewfinity here. I found that Letters perform ok against Purifiers when under worship. In hindsight the best BO in this case would be Torpid suggestion: screw the Raptors in favor of the second CSM. Get the Sword (and Letters in T2) and let the Inties and Purifiers have it in melee while 2x TCSM take down the ranged stuff. Second purchase would have been a Dreadnought even with the Inties on the field.

They may be demon hunters but the math is not on their side in this case ^^

All in all thank you guys (and I shall remember all wargear possibilities next time).

P.S: No more Inties in T1 though in the future

[Cyris]

I've said it before, and I still stand by it: GK does not preform well against dedicated melee compositions, the kind that Chaos, Ork and Nid can field in T2. The flowchart of compositional inefficiencies Noobus and Crew laid out are pretty accurate in my experience. The worst part being that Purifiers, while strong, ultimately have the stat-line of KCSM but require like 15 power per model to reinforce. The first time a battle goes even slightly against you, it's all down hill (and god-forbid the Justicar dies!).

BL equal or beat any non-dread GK can field in T2, for less investment, reinforce and upkeep, and gain more benefit from worship then any single buff GK can throw into the mix, and strongly threaten bleed and wipes. Get them and use them!

As for T1, Tex's calls on the plague sword are very accurate. GK RELIES on T1 dominance to get ahead, and the sword (much like the entirety of the CL) negates a disproportional amount of that advantage. The PC will beat the SS or a BC in single combat, giving you more then enough space to operate.

All that said, I think the PCvBC matchup is fairly even, mainly because of the power of the purgation squad in T1, which are the only real way to stop the PC. I reaaaaaly hope the Operatives can hang!

[Adeptus Noobus]

I have since played a few matches as PC vs the BC and now tend more towards the Sword. The Bilious Discharge is fun to have and must be really annoying to the enemy but the Sword just gives you so much more. It's 65 dps on Heavy Infantry ignoring melee resistance in T1. It is strong. Combined with the Breath of Nurgle and worship, the BC will have a bad day. In fact, in T1 only the Hive Tyrant (75 dps melee Rending Talons) and the Lictor Alpha (63.75 dps power melee Feeder Tendrils) equal or surpass this damage output if I am not mistaken (still - ignoring 40% melee resistance).

Thank you guys for all your input.