Chaos Space Marine Topic

[Ace of Swords]

Plague Marines "Heal other squads on death" effect at the moment IMHO it's almost useless. In the best of cases, situational.

The "Heal other squads on death" forces you to blob you units, which usually isn't the best strategy, because in that situation are vulnerable to AOE/Artillery damage.

I suggest to revert the ELITE change, and make the "Heal on death" affect again the own Plague Marines. The heal could be reduced to a 60% of the retail value, make them obtained through a upgrade or even a passive T3 upgrade.

that was too op, every time a model died it would full the others, making it very hard to force off the squad and that's why you could easily use them for suicide capping.

They are fine as they are now.

[Orkfaeller]

Maybe turn it into a health regen Bonus instead of a burst heal?

Atleast on themselves?

[Kvek]

They already have a super-high regen.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

that was too op, every time a model died it would full the others, making it very hard to force off the squad and that's why you could easily use them for suicide capping.

They are fine as they are now.

No, they aren't fine.

The heal-on-death have his sense in retail, because helps to the squad to tank the vehicles' damage and improves a lot his survival. This heal makes the squad incredibely tanky. Are they OP in retail? Yes. But the heal have his sense and purpose.

In Elite the heal-other-squads-on-death it has no purpose or reason at all. It forces you to blob your units to benefit from, making your squads very vulnerable to AOE and artillery. And even if you aren't able to move your squads (snares, stuns, distractions) and you eat a plasma dev/blastermaster shot, thanks to their superior HP and armour type, it's easily more possible to start losing other squads models instead of PM ones, wasting the heal.

It's simply senseless.

Without touching anything more, I suggest to make this effect as an ability, like the Heretics' Doomblast.

I mean, make an ability than allows you to sacrifice one Plague Marine and trigger the heal-other-squads-on-death and damage effects. If you are going to lose an expensive model, at least you can choose when you want to lose it.

That would also give new combos and strategies to Chaos.

[Orkfaeller]

Well, I guess its usefull if you send them into Meele together with your Khorne Marines or Raptors if they are quick enough.

[Arbit]

Let's not forget Elite made them faster and cheaper at the same time they lost their ability to self heal, so they're a more reliable AV squad now.

They are still good as a quasi anti melee squad due to their slow aura, too.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

Well, I guess its usefull if you send them into Meele together with your Khorne Marines or Raptors if they are quick enough.

they're too slow to keep up and sending them in first would lead to them getting hurt without dealing any damage. if it was an active ability it would work but not as is.

[Asmon]

Explosion and heal on death is a defensive ability that perfectly plays its role, ie denying squad wipe.

It would be simply op to make it an ability. PM's aura is already there to help allied units and it is quite effective.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Well, I guess its usefull if you send them into Meele together with your Khorne Marines or Raptors if they are quick enough.

- PM + MoK CSM to help them in the melee, healing them and doing damage/knockback in the enemy squads.
- PM + Chaos Sorcerer's Sigil of the Rift to use them as living grenade squad.
- PM with/out the Plague Champion healing abilities to keep Chaos squads healthy and obtain some map control
- PM + Touch of Nurgle to great AOE damage.
- PM + allied retreating squad chased by enemy squads to protect them.

For example.

Explosion and heal on death is a defensive ability that perfectly plays its role, ie denying squad wipe.

It would be simply op to make it an ability. PM's aura is already there to help allied units and it is quite effective.

Am... So, is OK as a PASSIVE deffensive ability, but not as an active ability?

Yes, because paying 62/5 every time you use it for 150 hp heal per member (but no for the own Plague Marines), 50 Explosive damage and weapon_knockback (this last thing works half the time) in a radius 8 (which is 2/3 the radius of the Heretics Doomblast) it's soooo OP.

[Dark Riku]

Yeah, they lost their ridiculous survivality, and now except you blob your units (then say hi to enemy AOE damage or artillery) the heal-on-death it's almost useless.

Now they move faster, but also his snare is weaker and last less than in retail.

But well, at least cost less in price and upkeep.

The heal/explosion still has it's uses.. be happy they even do that when they die :p

Eum, no, the snare has become stronger and lost 2 secs of time:
Missile launcher snare effect increased from 25% to 40%
Plague Marines missile snare effect decreased from 10 to 8 seconds
This is way better than the retail snare.

Their passive slow aura however, one of numerous other ability that they have,
got toned down a lil: Passive slow aura effect decreased from 30% to 20%

And yeah a price adjustment together with upkeep:
Plague Marines upkeep decreased from 12.75 to 10.2
And some other stuff like the death explosion tone down and speed buff:
Death explosion damage decreased from 80 to 50
Speed increased from 3.5 to 4.

You also aren't forced to blob with your PM's together with other units....
Don't get where you get this idea from. It's already one of the numerous an extra perk they get. It would be acceptable if they didn't even had it.

Their role is AV, which has been buffed in Elite.
Their role isn't to heal your other squads.

They already have so many things going for them. They don't need more buffs.

[Asmon]

Am... So, is OK as a PASSIVE deffensive ability, but not as an active ability?

Yes. Which word did you fail to understand?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

You also aren't forced to blob with your PM's together with other units....

If you want to take advantage of the "Heal-other-squads-on-death" effect, yes.

If not, the effect it's simply wasted.

It's already on of the numerous an extra perk they get. It would be acceptable if they didn't even had it.

Yeah, but the problem is that for every perk/ability/thing that any squad has, increases the cost of the squad/unit and makes that any other characteristics that the own squad have doesn't were higher/better because it would broke the balance of the squad.

An more, when a "perk" it's simply useless in almost any situation.

Their role is AV, which has been buffed in Elite.
Their role isn't to heal your other squads.

No, their role weren't heal other squads. That was an indirect benefit. The role/purporse of the "Heal-on-death" was primarily in retail heal the OWN Plague Marines.

But that in ELITE was changed, and now the heal only works on others.

I suppose it was a quick change to erase the IMBA state of the Plague Marines from retail, and simply has not taken a look again later.

They already have so many things going for them. They don't need more buffs.

I'm simply offering solutions to a passive ability that I think is poorly focused, and at the same time, give a bit more sauce to the Chaos strategy/gameplay.

Yes. Which word did you fail to understand?

Maybe in other situations I would agree with you, but in the way works the PM heal allies/damage enemys/knockback on death I can't.

[Lulgrim]

What I dislike about current PM explosion is it's simply unintuitive and illogical. Healing only themselves would make more sense, healing other units but not themselves is just outright weird... If their survivability was too high, decrease health/regen to compensate or decrease the heal per pop effect.

[Raffa]

The problem with PM explosion in its current state is that it's useless :p

Healing only themselves would make more sense, healing other units but not themselves is just outright weird... If their survivability was too high, decrease health/regen to compensate or decrease the heal per pop effect.

Agreed. Currently the explosion is just a "perk" that adds to their cost but gives no real benefit. I don't think this would make them op hard to kill, but if it does then a health regen decrease would seem like the most logical tweak to make.

[Torpid]

The problem with PM explosion in its current state is that it's useless :p

Healing only themselves would make more sense, healing other units but not themselves is just outright weird... If their survivability was too high, decrease health/regen to compensate or decrease the heal per pop effect.

Agreed. Currently the explosion is just a "perk" that adds to their cost but gives no real benefit. I don't think this would make them op hard to kill, but if it does then a health regen decrease would seem like the most logical tweak to make.

I honestly don't think the explosion factors in on PMs price much at all. A tactical marine missle launcher costs 40 power and is far less effective at taking down vehicles than a plague marine squad, who also detriment opposing melee via their movement debuff and can deal now significant amounts of anti infantry damage (hence the higher req cost than missles). If the explosion perk is contributing to the price of this unit then their other perks are probably being undervalued. I think it's fine how it is atm balance wise, but lulgrim's suggestion is plausible too.

[JuhwannX]

As I get back into the fray of the game, I started thinking:
Why DON'T Noise Marines have any other upgrade, besides blastmaster?

[Kvek]

Because they don't need anything else ?

[saltychipmunk]

if anything the grey knights sad version of noise marines need a look at before the noise marines do.

I dont get why every one is so bum hurt about the plagues explosion not healing the plagues.

I mean I would think the fact that they explode, and thus are an effective melee deterrent to low hp high model melee squads , would be enough.

they slow units down , they snare tanks , they have high hp regen and high hp pool they have an armor type that doesn't have extra negative damage modifiers vs power weapons. They are cheaper than missile tacs and do a better job.

The better question then is not : why do they not heal them selves on explosion but rather: Do they even need to explode? Seems like icing on a balance cake you peeps are being a little too greedy about getting an extra piece of .

[Orkfaeller]

they slow units down , they snare tanks , they have high hp regen and high hp pool they have an armor type that doesn't have extra negative damage modifiers vs power weapons. They are cheaper than missile tacs and do a better job.

And their firerate wont go down under supression.
Also, do they cause damage over time like the PC?

[saltychipmunk]

in vanilla they did , logic would suggest they probably still do , though i do not know for a fact.

point being they are already great , complaining about the explosion seems ungrateful

[Nuclear Arbitor]

more cake! MORE CAKE!

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

more cake! MORE CAKE!

The cake it's a lie. Tzeentch told me the last time I were in the Black Library

hey are cheaper than missile tacs and do a better job.

The better question then is not : why do they not heal them selves on explosion but rather: Do they even need to explode? Seems like icing on a balance cake you peeps are being a little too greedy about getting an extra piece of .

Compare Missile Tacs and Plague Marines without having in mind the different design of the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines armies is senseless.

Why they explode?
- Because that's the way they were created and designed.
- Because in retail (still in Elite, but a bit less) they need to be more powerfull than other races' similar squads because Chaos (with a few exceptions) lacks of temporary buffs.
- Because, well, in Chaos Rising and in retail they were OP, even after some nerfs. In old 'n good days, when a Plague Marine dies, enemies within radius 8 suffer 80 points of explosive_pvp damage, knockback and -20% damage output for 10 seconds. Friendly units are healed for 150 points instead.

Now in Elite causes 50 points of explosive_damage, knockback and heal OTHER squads for 150 in a radius 8.

[Dark Riku]

Why they explode?
- Because that's the way they were created and designed.
- Because in retail (still in Elite, but a bit less) they need to be more powerfull than other races' similar squads because Chaos (with a few exceptions) lacks of temporary buffs.

....

- Initial design doesn't automatically means it's balanced.
- Yeah, Chaos gets permanent buffs with shrines ...

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

- Initial design doesn't automatically means it's balanced.
- Yeah, Chaos gets permanent buffs with shrines ...

- saltychipmunk asked why Plague Marines explode. I answer him, saying because that was the way they were designed. I don't say that was balanced.

- The "(still in Elite, but a bit less)" phrase was added for something. The Khorne and Tzeentch Shrine now gives some permanent buffs, that's right. In the same way that Chaos Terminators put some debuffs on enemy squads when they kill stuff.

In fact, "The" Chaos buff, AKA Nurgle/Khorne/Tzeentch Workshipp was nerfed/balanced in some ways.

But still Chaos have to rely on the own strength of their units, and not in temporary buffs/debuffs. This is the strength and a weakness at the same time of Chaos.

[Dark Riku]

Every race has to rely on their own strengths.
If you want buffs/debuffs you get wargear like almost every other hero.
[Only fs/fc/lc/~HT buff right out of the gate.]
Or you use globals which Choas has in awesome form.

Examples: ToN, Blood Lust, Chaos lord Daemonic Visage
... If those aren't good debuffs/buffs I dunno anymore what is.

In fact, "The" Chaos buff, AKA Nurgle/Khorne/Tzeentch Workshipp was nerfed/balanced in some ways.

Only nurgle worship HP rate got decreased...
And all worship toggles cooldown are decreased.
So you can go out of worship faster again. (so buffed)

[Castle]

Just a quick note here...which may go well beyond the performance of Chaos in general (regarding gameplay):

After having played the Chaos Lord for sometime I have found he is quite boring and largely ineffective overall, compared to other offensive commanders. He is very slow, he can kinda tank but cannot tele like the GK commander, nor apply as much useful wargear as the Force Commander. Nor do the damage the Warlock or Commissar can upfront. Yet also lacks the option(s) to trick or weaken others as effectively overall. I like the Doom Maul but besides the stun to infantry--if you can ever get a chance to land it--the maul is a let down. I have tried builds outside of the typical 'Dark Halo, Inferno Armor, Lightening Claws' build and they all just cannot keep up.

Offensive commanders need tactical options, and since it comes down to not having "tricks" like support or stealth or defensive heroes have, they need to be really effective at offense and 'tanking'. Other heroes take practice but pay off big from experience and good micro. Offensive commanders are the bread and butter for players and need to be highly effective in their one-dimensional roles...

Granted, Khorne heretic worhship is crucial for CL play. But even still, it is so easy for experienced players to dodge Kill The Weak that he just can't match up with other heroes and other builds overall, even late game; add to any of this the issue of Chaos units being immobilized for key upgrades and front-line marines (CSM) being weak to power weapons and less capable than Tacs in melee, makes for a complicated issue to solve. Even when Kill The Weak succeeds, the CL is still easily fired down on and now takes damage rather easily from many sources. I know he is OP in retail...but there is a reason for that. And in time you can easily dispatch him even in retail if you know what you are doing.

Healing by melee damage taken, instead of given, just doesn't work out IMHO. Too easy for players to peel of melee and just fire him down once they realize he is healing from melee hits, then come back in for the kill...

I suggest:

-Reducing slightly the regen from melee (with the right wargear), but allowing him to heal on melee hits upon others only, once again. This way he can heal when engaging ranged squads, reducing kiting problems some.

-add option of gaining energyfrommelee hits for T3 armor? Or some other wargear upgrade option?

-Increase the size, or size of AoE, of the lightening claw special attack (or increase speed by which the attack is commenced); again, easy to dodge.

-Increase DPS or overall damage of maul... perhaps just to vehicles. And/or the range of the stun.

-Allow flamer to be used as a ranged weapon instead of just as a special attack, making CL immobile when doing so, ending Flamer ranged attack until he stops again, unable to use the Flamer on the move (standard default bolter is used when in (melee) pursuit if applicable). Reduce the damage of the flamer if need be for standard ranged attack from the special ability. Allow for damage to gens somewhat less than SM Tactical flamer, though still effective.

This also allows for Khorne Chaos builds to keep pace with SM's where gen bashing is concerned (heretics do ok, but until Noise Marines--if you get NM's--Chaos has little to compete in gen bashing). Flamer as a ranged standard would allow for CL to 'line support' some, since early on he is simply kited when trying to line break... switching stances takes micro work and has complications. Should work out in balance.

*If similar ideas have been posted, sorry to have missed anything...there is a lot to catch up on

Hope this helps!

[Indrid]

Wat.

Chaos Lord is and has always been one of the strongest commanders in all game modes IMO.

[Castle]

Wat.

Chaos Lord is and has always been one of the strongest commanders in all game modes IMO.

I am not saying he is weak.. but instead that he is boring and ineffective commonly. As for examples of when and where he is ineffective, I will add to this later Generally speaking though, he has one build order except in rare 1v1 circumstances

[crazyman64335]

Wat.

Chaos Lord is and has always been one of the strongest commanders in all game modes IMO.

I am not saying he is weak.. but instead that he is boring and ineffective commonly. As for examples of when and where he is ineffective, I will add to this later Generally speaking though, he has one build order except in rare 1v1 circumstances

boring and ineffective? you're obviously not using him right or not seeing the right people use him. He is the spearhead for the rest of the chaos army and is undeniably one of the tougher commanders to fight. and his build order is very flexible, even more so in team games.

[Kvek]

Castle have you ever played as the Chaos Lord in a 1v1 ?
He can counter sub commanders, commanders (if they are not immune to knockback) with Drain Life,
Destroy IG/eldar/nids/orks with LTGB, or can be super-tanky with Halo+Harness of rage.

Chaos Lord is the most effective chaos hero.


Increasing the DPS of blood maul ? It does 100_melee dps and has the awesome sweeping doom ability. but is usually overshadowed by lighting claws.

Not sure about the combi-flamer it is a really good weapon now, changing it into a "tac flamer" doesn't sound really good, i usually get the combi-flamer against scouts to make them bleed against ig against the sentinel etc, changing it to a flamer is not a good idea.


Heretics do ok ? They are great against space marines if you give them AC.