Slaanesh Commander

Generic non-balance topics.
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Slaanesh Commander

Postby Raffa » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 3:18 pm

Ok here's my prototype design for a Slaanesh commander. He's intended to be a support subcommander for Chaos in t2. Comments welcome but from a design/balance perspective only. The idea is to make something actually playable rather than LOLOLOL GIMME UNIT LOLOLOL. So let's not let this become a fluffbunny fest k? :lol:

Faction: Chaos Space Marines
Tier: 2
Size: Small
XP Value: 250
Death: +40
Health: 750
Energy: 100
Courage:
Sight Radius: 40
Detect Radius: 5
Speed: 5.5
Model Count: 1
Melee Skill: 70
Buy: 325/60
Upkeep: 23.5
Pop Cap: 5
Build Time: 35
Scaling: *Same as Libby cbf to write all that out*

Weapons - default
Power Sword: identical to fc, except 95 dmg per hit (73.08 dps)
Plasma Pistol: KCSM Plasma Pistol

Abilities - default
Melee Resistance Aura:
Demoralize: same as CSM Terminators
Sonic Burst: Discharges one noise marine "burst", knocking down surrounding units. 50 energy to use. Cooldown 30 seconds.

Upgrades
Mask of Pain: grants ability "Focus by Pain" - targeted unit deals 35% more damage, gains +1 Speed and +20 melee skill, but takes 15% more damage and each model loses 2% of total hp per second. Can be cast on self. Duration 10/15 seconds. Cost: 75/25. 80 energy to use. Cooldown 60 seconds. Passively increases Slaanesh Commander health and melee damage by 8%.
Pleasure Tome: Targeted enemy infantry unit cannot fire ranged weapons. Duration 10 seconds. Cost 70/20. 40 energy to use. Cooldown 30 seconds. Passively increases Slaanesh Commander health and melee damage by 8%.

*edit each upgrade now grants +50hp and +5melee damage per hit instead of % bonuses*
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri 03 May, 2013 8:53 am, edited 7 times in total.
User avatar
Kvek
Level 4
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon 01 Apr, 2013 12:26 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Kvek » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 3:33 pm

an ability that shuts down ranged weapons -castable on one squad maybe ?
Last edited by Kvek on Sun 07 Jul, 2013 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Raffa » Wed 01 May, 2013 4:34 pm

Also we have all the animations needed for this guy.
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu 02 May, 2013 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Lost Son of Nikhel
Contributor
Posts: 636
Joined: Wed 13 Feb, 2013 4:26 pm
Location: The Warp

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Thu 02 May, 2013 12:05 pm

Not bad balanced IMHO, but maybe reduce a bit the default damage to 65 dps from 73 dps.

Have in mind that with both upgrades with 73 base dps is going to do 84.68 dps. Not mention if the Slaanesh commander starts to level up or he aplies on himself the Focus by pain ability. And don't forget the Demoralize effect.

It's a good idea, but i would like to see a 4th Chaos Commander instead of a subcommander.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

There will be no forgiveness for us.
User avatar
Dark Riku
Level 5
Posts: 3083
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:48 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 02 May, 2013 1:45 pm

What you proposed here is a slightly better/cheaper vanilla Librarian...

His upgrades should definitely not give him % increases but flat out numbers instead.
It would have way to big of an impact when he levels.

With some tweaking it could be done I guess.
Not sure if it's really needed and what is possible to do.

For example his melee skill, like the librarian, should be higher than 70.
User avatar
Indrid
Moderator
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Indrid » Thu 02 May, 2013 1:58 pm

I'd like to see this unit in some form. They've had this model for a while though and haven't implemented it, so I'm assuming Caeltos has some grander balance reason for not doing so.
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Raffa » Thu 02 May, 2013 3:00 pm

K reduce damage per hit to 90, change upgrades so that each one passively grants +50hp and +5 dmg per hit.

Dark Riku wrote:For example his melee skill, like the librarian, should be higher than 70.


Focus by Pain ability gives you this option. But it's designed to synergise with KCSM, Plague marines (and, to a lesser extent, havocs).
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri 10 May, 2013 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Caeltos » Thu 02 May, 2013 10:32 pm

For complexity's sake, give an idealistic build, and how the unit itself would fit into the mixture, and the overall "theme" of the build would be.

For an example, "Tic, CSM, tic, T2, SC(SlaneeshCommander) and how they would possibly compliment one another.

To expand upon this, add a simple list of possible existing counters from each corresponding race. And judge if the cost effiency // performance is a nice balance.
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Raffa » Fri 03 May, 2013 8:36 am

For complexity's sake then...

So we have a tic/tac/tic/rap opening. AC and grenade launchers split between the 2 tic squads. Then T2

Army Composition
Slaanesh Commander (SC) then comes in. He is followed by fully upgrading CSM into KCSM, with eternal war and champion, and raptor AC. In general, Raptors jump in to suppress as much as possible so that AC tics, KCSM and SC can get in close to cause the damage. Vanilla SC will do significant damage and begin inflicting model losses to start his demoralizing effect. AC tics engage to tie up as much as possible whilst SC and KCSM go after the highest value targets.

This is where his upgrades come in. Buying Mask of Pain will really allow the KCSM to, at least for a time, compete with some more dedicated melee squads in a vaguely similar way to how apo can let ASM punch above their weight with heals/combat stims/etc. They will hit harder, do more specials for disruption (and not be special attacked very often) and chase hard. However they will be more vulnerable and lose 2% of their sizable hp every second, so the incentive is there to really use them while you can. Bearing in mind the SC has demoralize to somewhat counteract the negative effects of Focus of Pain and you can hopefully see that the idea with SC is to try to give Chaos the option of an army that can be more than the sum of its parts - you're just not going to get anything like the best out of this guy unless you use him in conjuction with your main force. Mask of Pain also synergises quite well with tics and can make them very dangerous, but this carries the increased risk aswell of making an already fragile unit even more vulnerable. If TCSM were taken it could be used on them to further increase their anti-infantry potential or simply it would be used on the SC to give him melee skill 90 and turn him into something of a beast in melee. With his inability to get significant health bonuses however, this gives an already far from robust, expensive single model a large target sign. Bear in mind it's also 80 energy on a 100 energy commander so he can't use other abilities if he pops this.

If faced with a powerful ranged squad, the Tome of Pleasure upgrade becomes very tempting. Shutting down a ranged squad has so many benefits don’t think I have to list them. Most importantly it will give some time for the SC and melee units to get closer to actually getting to melee. At 40 energy, this also leaves room for a use of Sonic Burst (default ability) that you wouldn’t be able to use if just blindly going for Mask of Pain.

Counters
As far as counters go, SC should effectively be treated as a punchier, softer Librarian without but who is going to have to get stuck in to maximise his effectiveness. He can be focus fired down quickly or overwhelmed in melee. Sternguard, upgraded shootas, TCSM, Purgation, Termagaunts, Warp Spiders and Devils/IG ranged blob are the ranged counters that immediately come to mind as being highly effective. Taking him down in melee is deliberately trickier – if he hasn’t used Focus of Pain he can do a burst of knockdown with Sonic Burst, although this does knock down allies also. In a well-synergised Chaos army he will be very hard to take down. However, with his mediocre hp he is very vulnerable to knockdown as well as swamping. Upgraded sluggas/storms, banshees and other dedicated melee squads are a very serious threat to him. Overall though, treat him vaguely as a Libby for target purposes and the counters reveal themselves.

Cost efficiency
For cost efficiency/performance he would vary tbh. A player who doesn’t know what he’s doing and blindly throws him into melee expecting him to kick ass like a force commander isn’t going to end up well and there will probably be people who go on these forums saying OMG SC IS SO SHIT BUFFBUFF NOWNOWNOW!!! If he’s used in tandem with the army as a whole, and if you’ve built your army correctly, then he will be quite a formidable proposition. With Mask of Pain he’s costing 400/85 for an 800hp model, but he has some very powerful support/lockdown abilities that can change the course of engagements. It’s no small investment in him at the vanilla 325/60 cost when you bear in mind that this is a melee subcommander, and this type of unit is notorious for dying. But his power grows hugely with his upgrades and I can see the Focus of Pain on KCSM in combination with the SC for Demoralize becoming a very strong, alternative way of playing Chaos. Worth noting also that Mask of Pain is also designed to work for tank-hunting; Plague Marines benefit most from this, with the extra speed and damage, but they have a lot of hp and will be losing it passively even if not being shot at. Works for Las havocs to an extent aswell. If you can afford it, Mask of Pain perhaps works best with Bloodletters as, if you can get some worship up, they will become a melee superiority unit, if fighting alongside the SC for the debuff.

Conclusion
The Slaanesh Commander built this way is a viable alternative to the bread and butter Chaos Tier 2. But again it requires that you make the army fight as one. So to conclude, players who just pick him blindly will get something from him, but it won’t come close to justifying the investment. If you know how he’s meant to function on the other hand, and have an army to support him, he’ll be immensely rewarding – the more you give him, the more you’ll get out of him.
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Caeltos » Fri 03 May, 2013 11:33 am

Thanks, well-put together. I'll have to read it through and re-read it again just to make sure I've got all the information.
User avatar
Indrid
Moderator
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Indrid » Mon 06 May, 2013 4:13 pm

I wanna see this guy! Some thoughts:

Default DPS seems a bit high.

Pleasure Tome I think could use an increased purchase cost and/or cooldown, it's an engagement winner. Instantly shut down WS/ranged Terms/Flash Fits/Reapers etc, etc. Or balance it by having the targetting radius be short.
User avatar
Kvek
Level 4
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon 01 Apr, 2013 12:26 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Kvek » Mon 06 May, 2013 5:28 pm

Or make it something like a 100 energy cost ability with range of full auto maybe ?
User avatar
Commissar Yarrick
Level 3
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat 16 Feb, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Mon 06 May, 2013 8:06 pm

Good idea and all but I think this should come, if it even comes to be, with IG psyker. It could simply use Sorc model or Tic model with minor alterations. It makes sense that chaos had its own "librarian" but by the lore they are not "slaneesh Commanders" but chaos sorcerers. Indeed there are former Force Commanders dedicated to Slaneesh worship but they would fill the role of melee combatant rather than devoted warp manipulator. Therefore maybe its better call this would be new unit Slaneesh Sorcerer. Or even better! Make this new unit to be the great Ahzek Ahriman himself, altough the ability names must be altered to suit this standing.

Although the powers of Psykers (Mostly limited to one among IG psykers) are many and varied, they usually fall into one of several disciplines. The five most common are:

Biomancy: Manipulation of Biological energy and processes through the power of their minds.

Divination: Tapping into the Immaterium to predict future events. (Maybe irrelevant in game terms)

Pyromancy: Psychic manipulation of fire

Telekinesis: Convert their psychic energy into a physical force.

Telepathy: Contacting and controlling the minds of others.

- I can go into details but I do not want to put too much info out of topic in this thread.

Tis could be called Dawn Of War 2 - ELITE: Echoes of the Warp update.
Attachments

[The extension jpg has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

Image
User avatar
Commissar Yarrick
Level 3
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat 16 Feb, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Mon 06 May, 2013 8:13 pm

OR psyker could use altered Commissar model.
Image
User avatar
Indrid
Moderator
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Indrid » Mon 06 May, 2013 8:29 pm

I think you confused Slaanesh with Tzeentch, Slaanesh has little to do with sorcery in general and Ahriman has little to do with Slaanesh.
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Raffa » Mon 06 May, 2013 8:45 pm

Said from the start the point of this is to give Chaos a more nuanced way of playing. Without fluffbunnies.

This talk of making other subcommanders is taking away from the point here.

Put the Psyker talk in Indrids thread. It's really annoying. Spent a lot of time designing this guy to fill a gap in the chaos roster and this is getting lost cos of some randomer whining for a new unit for ig.
User avatar
Commissar Yarrick
Level 3
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat 16 Feb, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Tue 07 May, 2013 9:19 am

Indrid wrote:I think you confused Slaanesh with Tzeentch, Slaanesh has little to do with sorcery in general and Ahriman has little to do with Slaanesh.


That is why I said that "Even better" meaning, replace name and idea of SC and replace with Azhek Ahrima (only narrowing down some ideas I had). I did not say anything Ahriman being a slaneeshi sorc.

Besides, no matter what god one devotes to, a psyker is a psyker and therefore they can bend warp to their will no matter to which god they devote themselves. Khorne being an exceptional in the matter since sorcery has nothing to do in honorable combat in his book.
Last edited by Commissar Yarrick on Tue 07 May, 2013 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Commissar Yarrick
Level 3
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat 16 Feb, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Tue 07 May, 2013 9:26 am

DJ Raffa wrote:Said from the start the point of this is to give Chaos a more nuanced way of playing. Without fluffbunnies.

This talk of making other subcommanders is taking away from the point here.

Put the Psyker talk in Indrids thread. It's really annoying. Spent a lot of time designing this guy to fill a gap in the chaos roster and this is getting lost cos of some randomer whining for a new unit for ig.


I did say in my post "I can go into details but I do not want to put too much info out of topic in this thread." I gave my support for your character idea and some alternative ideas. But I never meant to put IG psyker to replace your thread. Meaning it felt right just to bring out an idea that this new character could come in same update, if even comes to be, with IG psyker because both compliment each other for both are support sub commanders for t2 for both chaos and Imperial guard. I apologise if I gave you a wrong impression but I hope this will narrow it down for you and any other who took my previous message wrong.

Still I find this off for me. Are you aiming at this unit being a Force Commander (chaos) + Chaos sorcerer hybrid? Since these buffs and mechanics in combat do not fit in known Slaneeshi M.O (Mode of Operation). It is diferent from normal chaos behaviour and that is the issue I'm having.

This is not meant to offend you in any possible way.
Image
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Raffa » Thu 09 May, 2013 4:55 pm

Been thinking recently and I'm actually in two minds about whether a new hero is better than a subcommander. The hero is nice in theory but big issues are already around for his abilities..with all the buffs and debuffs they're just repeating themselves at differing levels of power. I mean what's going on we going for Eldar-speed Chaos here? Not to say it couldn't work, but needs a lot of rethinking.

A subcommander on the other hand, like I said before, is giving Chaos an alternative playstyle..i.e. being more nuanced without forcing such an approach from the outset. Seems like a better option on reflection.
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Caeltos » Wed 14 Aug, 2013 3:10 pm

I got your video by the way, I just can't respond to PM's on the forums.

Chat me up on steam.
Hellstar
Level 2
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat 09 May, 2015 8:47 pm

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Hellstar » Wed 20 May, 2015 3:29 am

I say go "whole hog" and do the greater demon of Slaanesh as well, and do Slaanesh worship on the heretics. Then if we can get a Tzeench greater demon and a Bloodthirster, we will have 4 commanders with 4 flavors of Chaos god and (possibly unique) access to their particular greater demon as ultimate unit.
User avatar
Swift
Moderator
Posts: 2174
Joined: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 6:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Swift » Wed 20 May, 2015 12:11 pm

Hellstar wrote:I say go "whole hog" and do the greater demon of Slaanesh as well, and do Slaanesh worship on the heretics. Then if we can get a Tzeench greater demon and a Bloodthirster, we will have 4 commanders with 4 flavors of Chaos god and (possibly unique) access to their particular greater demon as ultimate unit.

Might be quite hard to make those models considering there's little out there for them in terms of any parts, and skeletons and animations would be a huge issue. Also, you've already posted this.
The internal battery has run dry, the game can now be played. However, clock based events will no longer occur.
Hellstar
Level 2
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat 09 May, 2015 8:47 pm

Re: Slaanesh Commander

Postby Hellstar » Thu 21 May, 2015 4:01 am

Swiftsabre wrote:Also, you've already posted this.


So? Different thread, potentially different readers.

Beyond that, I have no quarrel with what you said, and I'm sure you are right - it could be difficult to model this stuff, especially given the small size of the community, limited resources, etc. It was just an idea thrown out there - nothing more.

Return to “Community General Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest