Lictor Alpha

[Forestradio]

I random Lictor Alpha against long-time chaos player Hobbes-San.

I can get away with tons of mistakes because of how overpowered flesh hook and feeder tendrils are: the bleed and field presence they inflict, combined with the LA's ability to counter suppression incredibly easily means I have the economic and map advantage pretty much the entire game. Even carelessly losing squads and my hero a couple times doesn't mean much.

Now, both flesh hook and feeder tendrils are getting nerfed next patch, but it won't solve the underlying problems with the hero.

A 5 power increase on feeder tendrils is nothing, a performance imba can't be solved with some kind of placebo cost increase. Change it from power_melee to melee_pvp so that the Lictor isn't as good at killing heroes (and not so dominant in the power armor matchups) and actually has an incentive to purchase his other weapons (which are quite awesome at counter-initiation and other roles).

As for flesh hook, either a heavily reduced range (so it's not a suppression team counter and immortal detector leaders are actually safe to buy) or a retreat modifier to prevent bullshit squad wipes in addition to the proposed tone down already in the changelog would go a long way to reducing LA early game pressure.

Thoughts?


Attached the replay for your convenience

[saltychipmunk]

at some point we are going to nerf flesh hooks so much it wont even be worthy of the phrase "flesh hooks".

perhaps the best idea would be instead of the hooks pulling units toward the la at all, it should knock them down and damage them.

as for being a counter set up unit thing . it is hardly the only starting ability in the game to counter set ups . the knob pretty much gets an equally effective method of countering setups from range minus the damage and pull effect of course. tele commanders routinely counter setups as well especially the wse which gets the ridiculous bonus of having melee skill on top of that tele melee.

so the idea of counter set ups as an implicit perk to a commander is not in of itself a bad thing.

as for retreat wipes. commander sniping is also not all that un common. the la just happens to get it for free. the ghost helm on the far seer is in some cases even more potent at this job . and hammer of the witches works too. so i am indifferent to this point.


i do like the idea of changing the damage type of feeder tendrils from power melee. the way i see it feeder tendrils should be a method of prolonging the la's presence in a fight.. tying up units longer etc rather than a method for slaying units for little risk. that being said no cost increase if that change were to happen.

[Swift]

at some point we are going to nerf flesh hooks so much it wont even be worthy of the phrase "flesh hooks".

Flesh Hook hasn't been nerfed that much, it's still incredibly powerful considering the platform it operates on.

perhaps the best idea would be instead of the hooks pulling units toward the la at all, it should knock them down and damage them.

Might work.

as for being a counter set up unit thing . it is hardly the only starting ability in the game to counter set ups . the knob pretty much gets an equally effective method of countering setups from range minus the damage and pull effect of course. tele commanders routinely counter setups as well especially the wse which gets the ridiculous bonus of having melee skill on top of that tele melee.

The issue here is that the LA counters them for free at long range with good staying power in melee and a powerful special, whereas the Kommando Nob relies on other units to finish the job unless he has the knife, which is a purchase the LA does not have to make. The WSE doesn't have the close combat damage that the LA has, nor the painful active ability, which works better than teleportation since it drags units to the LA and doesn't endanger him.

as for retreat wipes. commander sniping is also not all that un common. the la just happens to get it for free. the ghost helm on the far seer is in some cases even more potent at this job . and hammer of the witches works too. so i am indifferent to this point.

Ghost Helm is an upgrade for the Farseer which locks out two other potent accesories, but yes it's still powerful when it comes to retreat killing. The Hammer of the Witches doesn't have the range of Flesh Hook and also has a wind up where the Inquisitor is immobilised, making it far less effective.

i do like the idea of changing the damage type of feeder tendrils from power melee. the way i see it feeder tendrils should be a method of prolonging the la's presence in a fight.. tying up units longer etc rather than a method for slaying units for little risk. that being said no cost increase if that change were to happen.

Yes, pretty much, though 5 or ten power might mitigate it's use a little and encourage people to explore his other weapons.

[Torpid]

Ghost helm is not comparable at all. If that is OP it is for totally different reasons. Its retreat killing potential is far worse as it takes a much longer time to apply the damage - it's a DOT, not instant and it is shorter range.

[ytimk]

Just a dumb/poorly thought out idea:
make the LA more glass canon-ish? A bit less health and health regen (to start off/in general) because its a badass assassin who should strike hard and fast then jump out of trouble?

It would cool to hear what the dev team and other players see as the LA's unique role and place as a specific type of hero.

[hiveminion]

LA is already a glass cannon. It has received a health debuff one or two patches ago, giving it another one will just make Tendrils a required upgrade.

Regarding the replay, I mostly saw the LA be successful when engaging isolated units which is exactly its purpose. I didn't see you make any massive mistakes apart from losing the Lictor early on. You handled most of the engagements much better than Hobbes, who made some ineffective unit purchases (Havocs and Kdread). When you bashed power it was GG.

I really don't find Tendrils that powerful with the Lictor's reduced health pool, he's definitely not invulnerable in melee anymore if you have a decent melee counter.

Regarding Flesh Hook, I think a further reduction in pull strength would be good to reduce the wiping potential on invulnerable squad leaders, while retaining its use as a set-up counter. It's already getting a damage decrease next patch so it won't auto-bleed Scouts.

[Tex]

I agree with making feeder tendrils Melee_pvp. I have suggested this for a long ass time.

Flesh hook is... w/e. I just play around it. Its honestly the main reason to get the LA. He isn't a "with army" commander and later in the game when armies are larger, if he hasn't leveled, he is super crappy. That is to say, you make it into late game against an LA.

My main gripe with the LA is simply that his design is poor in that his wargear, energy costs, and playstyle, do not have a risk/reward or dynamic setup in any way. There is literally NO ENERGY MANAGEMENT REQUIRED FOR THIS HERO. If there was, you would see his tier 1 armor purchased. You would also see him have to conserve energy and not just be invisible all the time. You would see missed opportunities for flesh hook because he wouldn't have the energy for it!

I mean, how long has this hero been 100% linear?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on your LA, all you need is feeder tendrils and deadly jump right? If you are rich, you get lone hunter for extra lulz. If your opponent manages to have cash for a melee superiority unit, you get menacing visage.

Anyway, just as I'm typing here I got a few thoughts I wanted to put out there in point form:
-assault leap should cost a significant amount of energy, 50 at least. Right now it costs 20
-flesh hook should cost a significant amount of energy, 60 seems about right. currently it costs 45
-Toxic burst should currently costs 30 energy. I would like to see it at 50, but have the cooldown on the ability shortened to 25 seconds from 40.
-If feeder tendrils end up as being UP as melee_pvp, craft an ability for them so that they get a slight damage boost and power_melee damage for 6-10(?) seconds.
-Scythe is so incredibly good and people still don't use it because of feeder tendrils. I'm keeping my eye on this ability because it costs almost nothing (20 energy), does respectable damage, and has a 20 second cooldown. Watch for this to pop up when FT get nerfed.
-Terrify costs 60 energy. I remember this ability making my army completely incapable of fighting ranged carnifexes due to my nobs never staying on the field. Considering this is a late T2 into T3 wargear that has a massive effect when used correctly, can this not have a larger energy cost like 75?

Just my thoughts

[PhatE]

To further Tex's reply, I've been talking about energy management issue for the LA (and other units) for the longest time. The idea that a commander can remain infiltrated more or less indefinitely, reappear, commit to a fight, go back to being infiltrated and have more energy than what he had before he revealed himself is rather attractive to say the least. His energy pool is 225 after adrenal glands at level 1. 225 is pretty decent if not in the top 3(?) of energy pools. How one would ever run out of energy given the current costs to use an ability is so drastically low is beyond me.

Infiltration is also such a big issue with this commander along with the one thing that can actually see him getting pulled in and gang banged. If the infiltrate ability drained energy more aggressively then maybe 225 could be justified but currently it's not reasonable.