Touch of Nurgle

[Toilailee]

It has been brought to my attention that this global is not even T2.

And I lol'd hard.

[Superhooper01]

Its been adjusted to do less damage of heretics, And u can always retreat from it meaning your foe wastes the red. I think it does do to much damage to units on retreat but honestly its already been looked at dude. I rarely use it on heretics anymore i just like using to save any units in retreat from shes etc or using on raptors after a jump 'Happy landings':p.

[Cheekie Monkie]

And u can always retreat from it meaning your foe wastes the red.

But you can say that about many other globals.

I'm really shocked at the amount of PC threads on the forums lately. Ahem, back on topic...putting TON in T2 would mean that the PC would have no globals in T1, though I can hear the angry cries of the TM from here when I say that. I suppose a small consolation is that it happens in late T1, though I do admit that a good TON is pretty much an instant retreat at this stage in the game.

[Crewfinity]

My problem with it being in T1 is that the plague champion is able to almost instantly punish a full retreat by bashing with his bile spewer, which oftentimes can mean the game at that critical point. Also it has absurd wiping potential against squishy melee units like sluggas or bandages. T1 is where the nurgle worship has the most relevance, having touch of nurgle at his disposal as well makes it really hard to fight the PC from either ranged or melee.

[Toilailee]

Its been adjusted to do less damage of heretics, And u can always retreat from it meaning your foe wastes the red. I think it does do to much damage to units on retreat but honestly its already been looked at dude. I rarely use it on heretics anymore i just like using to save any units in retreat from shes etc or using on raptors after a jump 'Happy landings':p.

You can't "waste" ToN by retreating since it is always used when tics are alredy in melee. And it easily wipes T1 melee squads that way when they don't have their squad leaders.

putting TON in T2 would mean that the PC would have no globals in T1, though I can hear the angry cries of the TM from here when I say that. I suppose a small consolation is that it happens in late T1, though I do admit that a good TON is pretty much an instant retreat at this stage in the game.

And LG only has bunker for T1, I never thought that was a problem.

[saltychipmunk]

you let the pc get 150 red in t1? did you feed units into a havoc or something?

[Torpid]

you let the pc get 150 red in t1? did you feed units into a havoc or something?

No, he played 1v1...

Really I think it is fine though as it does less damage than in retail. In retail it was utterly freaking absurd. Again the ToN thing is made worse because of melee resist havocs so that in certain MUs like nids/orks you have to go all in in order to force off the havocs which results in bleed and giving your foe red and bad times. Fix havocs, ToN is fine itself.

[Superhooper01]

U make a point toilet but torpid summed it up (as usual):p

[Torpid]

Oh and to clarify when I said it was crazy in retail because it did more damage - that's because there was no delay on the explosions so pr0 PC players let you melee the tics and just before a model dies hit ToN on them only to immediately after hit doomblast too so that it instantly did 70 damage to all/most models in the squad. Now that is much harder to do since there's a 3 second delay in the explosion after a tic dies that stops it proccing again even if you let another tic die.

[Torpid]

I change my mind - it still does way too much damage for a T1 global and the 3 second delay is just not significant enough to stop the double doomblast, especially since all you need to do to ensure the double doomblast is get in the retreat path of your foe since it knocks them back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeO2cm1Ou9U&t=7m38s

[Toilailee]

I change my mind - it still does way too much damage for a T1 global and the 3 second delay is just not significant enough to stop the double doomblast, especially since all you need to do to ensure the double doomblast is get in the retreat path of your foe since it knocks them back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeO2cm1 ... m38seconds

...

[Crewfinity]

Really I think it is fine

Yall need to stop trusting torpid just because he's torpid

Yeah he has a very good understanding of the game, but his word is not the end all be all. I dsagree with him on many points, and an argument saying "I agree 100% with torpid isnt an argument at all. Speak from personal experience, not from fanboy-ism

This is a balance discussion forum, not a popularity contest.
/endrant

That said, you keep doing you torpid

[Torpid]

Yall need to stop trusting torpid just because he's torpid

Yeah he has a very good understanding of the game, but his word is not the end all be all. I dsagree with him on many points, and an argument saying "I agree 100% with torpid isnt an argument at all. Speak from personal experience, not from fanboy-ism

This is a balance discussion forum, not a popularity contest.
/endrant

That said, you keep doing you torpid

This is true. Everyone is fallible. Argument is something this forum lacks quite a bit at times, although it's not too bad but quite a few times I've had people actually refuse to debate me with me just because it's me. Now, whether this is an unnecessary endorsement of respect or more a fear due to the way I discuss things OR, more likely even, a desire not to bother discussing things with me as it's too tiring since I can be pedantic, or should I say, strictly analytic, is debatable. But debate is never bad so long as it is rational and not emotive.




So yeah PC. OP. Havocs OP. ToN OP. Blight Grenades OP. Everything OP.

[Crewfinity]

Vino OP.
Gawd Italy is amazing. I don't want to go back to the states


Next stop Berlin


Back on topic though, I absolutely think ToM could be moved to T2 or get toned down. I would lean towards the former because I like how it performs, but it's just simply too good against the low health melee squads you fight in T1, especially in conjunction with the insanely fast gen-bashes that the plague champ can pull off with either noise marines or his bile spewer. In high level 1v1 slugfests, touch of nurgle can be an instant engagement winner which gives the PC an unfair edge in T1, which is where he can really edge other players out IMHO.

[Daddy]

Oh please. Touch of Nurgle is fine.

The good players I have faced just back away and boom, I have wasted all that red. It's really more of a learn to play against it, than it being imbalanced at this point.

Seriously, who lets a plague champion get all that red in t1 to begin with.

[Tex]

Tough topic.

I'm pretty sure I can reference game 2 vs you (Toilailee) in MRT 14 where it was knob vs PC. I'm pretty sure I used the good old engage first, pop ToN after trick several times.

There can be no doubt this global is the equivalent of anal rape against any melee squad vs AC tics in T1. However, ToN is one of those globals you have to be conscious of red for, and avoid certain melee confrontations where it might be dicey. I know that when I play against the PC, especially as orks, I pretty much avoid melee vs melee confrontations from T1.5 until I have a slugga nob leader.

I don't really know what else to say other than, its super good vs ork/eldar/chaos, but not nearly as useful vs nids/sm/gk/IG (nids because crippling poison, and also horms almost never choose to fight tics).

[Torpid]

Oh please. Touch of Nurgle is fine.

The good players I have faced just back away and boom, I have wasted all that red. It's really more of a learn to play against it, than it being imbalanced at this point.

Seriously, who lets a plague champion get all that red in t1 to begin with.

You really need to stop with the blatant PC bias...

1) Nobody remotely decent uses ToN before the heretics are stuck in. Therefore ToN has no counter-play whatsoever other than never ever letting tics get in melee range with anything.

2) Anyone who plays 1v1 vs him. In fact, it happens quite a lot even in teams. In fact it can happen because the PC is rubbish and throws away lots of his models. There's a good example in the vid I linked above.

[Daddy]

Of course I am biased, I main PC.

But from my experiences, It is not a balance issue. It is potent when used as it is intended, which is to get in the middle of a blob and explode away.

The good players I play have a keen sense to avoid blobbing and letting heretics get in the middle of them.

[Carnevour]

l2p issue was always an issue that you cannot patch.

[Myrdal]

Yep, Toil obviously needs to l2p. Seriously though, based on the numbers it does seem misplaced in t1, at least tics vs LI squads as the area damage comes from both the doomblast and the subsequent ToN explosion. That's 55 damage per model from just a single blast so burna sluggas will instantly drop half their hp, banshees 1/3 etc. Given all the other benefits the damage is a bit ott tbh, wouldn't mind a 30% reduction at minimum on the tics ToN blast.

[Toilailee]

Well by comparison blood sacrifise actually costs more red even tho it is significantly less potent global. And dark flames, which is not quite as good as ToN, is justifiably T2.

Differently designed globals & heroes yeye I know, but that's the short version of my opinion.

[Crewfinity]

Well by comparison blood sacrifise actually costs more red even tho it is significantly less potent global. And dark flames, which is not quite as good as ToN, is justifiably T2.

Differently designed globals & heroes yeye I know, but that's the short version of my opinion.

And the long version?

[Sub_Zero]

The ability is nuts, it further emphasizes already strong anti-melee options of the hero. I am all for increasing its red cost. It is impossible to counter that when you are already engaged in melee. What you do is try not to ever get in melee against plague champions and try to win against them relying on ranged units. If we look at other Chaos heroes' abilities we can see that some of them cost even more red but don't even get in comparison with the touch of Nurgle, the ability is very good and guarantees easy insta wins. Just a single squad of heretics suddenly becomes godlike and truly wreaking havoc, the best unit to use on due to potential numerous knockbacks which lead to almost any enemy unit's inability to fight back.

[Carnevour]

Im guessing following this logic Ard Boyz and Uze Your Choppaz needs to be in t2 and have red cost increased. Since its not fair for vanilla sluggas to rofl stomp shees for 75red(150) or any other dedicated melee unit. Please nerf.
Also you dont take into consideration everyother bad thing about the hero and his effect on the army, like a total lack of mobility.

[Cheekie Monkie]

I change my mind - it still does way too much damage for a T1 global and the 3 second delay is just not significant enough to stop the double doomblast, especially since all you need to do to ensure the double doomblast is get in the retreat path of your foe since it knocks them back.

Like a virgin, Touched for the very first time.

[Torpid]

Im guessing following this logic Ard Boyz and Uze Your Choppaz needs to be in t2 and have red cost increased. Since its not fair for vanilla sluggas to rofl stomp shees for 75red(150) or any other dedicated melee unit. Please nerf.
Also you dont take into consideration everyother bad thing about the hero and his effect on the army, like a total lack of mobility.

UYC does not uncounterably insta-kill squads. You can see the big flashing axes and retreat out. It doesn't do obscene amounts of damage AND knockback with no notice - there is significant notice. Not to mention the warboss frankly needs those strong globals, without them there would be very very little reason to play him over the mek/KN, especially in 1v1.

You don't take into consider every other amazing thing about the hero like his fantastic anti-garrison and anti-melee. His durability in T1 ranged fights. His having the best defensive chaos T2 build with his plague fist, shrines and turrets for counter-initiation and his bile spewer granting him the best gen-bashing potential in T1.

[Toilailee]

Im guessing following this logic Ard Boyz and Uze Your Choppaz needs to be in t2 and have red cost increased. Since its not fair for vanilla sluggas to rofl stomp shees for 75red(150) or any other dedicated melee unit. Please nerf.
Also you dont take into consideration everyother bad thing about the hero and his effect on the army, like a total lack of mobility.

It's the "out of nowhere" squad wipe potential that's the issue, not a global winning an engagement. You can just retreat away from UYC sluggas and lose maybe 1 or 2 models.

And the long version?

Too lazy to rant.

[Myrdal]

Im guessing following this logic Ard Boyz and Uze Your Choppaz needs to be in t2 and have red cost increased. Since its not fair for vanilla sluggas to rofl stomp shees for 75red(150) or any other dedicated melee unit. Please nerf.

Ard boyz and UYC are in a much better spot balance and gameplay wise because they remain strong, and not disproportionately so, throughout the game. The buffs are based on a multiplier rather than a fixed amount and they work well on many units rather than just a t1 unit with shitty scaling. ToN is so damn predictable as it's wasted on anything but heretics and this just might merit keeping it a bit ott. Though I'd much rather have it more like Ard/UYC for more interesting gameplay (not much of that as PC).

[ytimk]

Not taking sides but

Like a virgin, Touched for the very first time.

Hehehehe
"Like nur-ur-ur-ur-gling....."

[Torpid]

More Bullshit ToN use:

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=304137

Granted it wouldn't have been GG if I hadn't already lost a slugga squad to 'fair play' earlier in T1 like a scrub. But nevertheless it's way too good for 150red. Hellfury is T2 and that thing has nowhere near the wipe potential of ToN - it's only used to snatch up retreating units much like dark flames, or for anti-garrison on demand but it costs 150. Why is ToN so good for 150 and T1? Change the global or move it to T2.