GK tier 1 vs. Chaos heretics?

[Hellstar]

So I was curious about Grey Knights and decided to do some testing. My buddy plays Chaos so we did a test 1v1, no capping points or attacking bases, just meeting in the middle with units for tests.

First test was inquisitional stormtrooper vs heretic. We met in the middle and I started shooting. He charged so I ran away. His heretics were actually faster, caught me, and with 1 BOOM wiped the entire squad. I thought it was kind of weird that I couldn't get away. It's like... I can't even run?

"Ah!" he said. "Gotta use a melee squad against heretics!" Well I had always heard that was bad, but I suck so what do I know? So I built a strike squad. I had no doubt a strike squad could win, and neither did my opponent. I mean they cost more than twice as much. So I said "to make it fair, build 2 heretic squads and send them." Well guess what? He only built ONE heretic squad, and guess what happened? BOOM! Dead strike squad.

Next test, I added the incinerator and we tried again. 1 heretic squad and BOOM! One dead strike squad again.

So what gives? Do heretics defeat the entire tier 1 Grey Knights roster? I'm a sucky player so take my opinion with a grain of salt if not a truckload, but isn't that kind of... I dunno... dumb?

[DandyFrontline]

Doomblast wiped out the strike squad? I dont believe

[Crewfinity]

You really don't want to be engaging heretics in melee with your units. Especially IST's. Strike squad should win if you get some shots in before they engage, and you should also be using WATH when they do get stuck in. Also purgations really ruin heretics days. Generally if you kite with IST and SS you should be able to focus them down.

[Cyris]

First off, I'm really suspicious of SS losing to tic in a straight fight. Did the SS not fire at all on the way in? By the time the tics get to melee they'd be down 1/3 hp usually.

Anyway, the way GK deals with tics is the way they deal with almost everything T1: kite a LOT. You describe the situation of a tic charging down an IST squad. In this situation, you run this algorithm:
1- Fire a full voley at the tic - around 2 seconds of shots.
2- Run directly away from the tics.
3- Continue running until the IST are far enough to get another volley off, or the tics turn to do something else.
Warning: If the tics get too close, they will start to charge, and then you are fucked. This is because IST ARE faster then tics (by .5), but the charge bonus makes the tics faster.
This tactic works a million times better with 2 IST, as you can separate them and kite/fire all day. The tics will start bleeding real fast.
Note that IST have a firing pattern of 2 seconds of shots, then 3 seconds of down time. This makes them IDEAL kiters. There is NO benefit to standing still during the 3s of down time, so take the opportunity to move them to a better spot, then fire again!

Tips for fighting tics with SS:
Fire at the tics on the way in, then start moving away as they close, to try to spread your models out so they don't take full damage from doomblast. Quickly force melee after the doomblast.
The BC casting WATH will more then push this fight in your favor, and he is all but immune to tics.
IST focus firing tics that are going after your SS will muuuurder them real fast.
In T1 vs Chaos, I aggressively force melee on CSM with my SS, while using my IST to bleed/zone tics away.
SS will NEVER do specials against a tic squad, because tics have 5 more melee skill. Ironically, they will occasionally do specials against AC tics, cause the AC has only 70 skill This is really important because SS don't actually deal much melee damage (23 dps each, compared to 22 and 19 of CSM and tacs) BUT against most other enemies their 70 melee skill will proc specials and push the fight in your favor. This is why you force melee against CSM and Tacs all day in T1.

Some other random notes:
A IST will deal ~128 damage in 2 seconds of firing at a tic squad. This will kill the tics from full health in 4.6 volleys. So, 2 IST unloading their full shots at a tic them backing off will just about halve their health. Ouch. A SS should absolutely force melee in this case, and will wipe the squad if it doesn't retreat.
I really wanna draw your eye to the IST firing pattern. It's SO key in many matchups. Stutter-stepping like marines in SC2, but over a 5s period (2s of firing, 3s of walking). INSANELY important in T1!

[Torpid]

HT beats every other hero 1v1. Clearly HT completely OP! Why does anybody play anything other than HT???

Default heretics certainly don't beat default strike squad. Default strike squad have beaten banshees before for me, sure they don't get any specials vs tics due to their MS but tics likewise don't get specials back and they lose models and thus dps very very fast to the SS, even before getting into melee...

Default tics barely beat default horms ffs...

And yeah, IST are faster than tics, but tics get a melee charge when they get into a certain range which would make them faster than IST.

[Lichtbringer]

For these kins of disscusions a replay is always nice.

It sounds unlikely that the Heretics win against a StrikeSquad.
But a Strikesquad wins closly against banshees. And Banshees get beaten by Heretics. And the Strikesquads big advantage are the Specials, so I wouldn't say it's impossible.

So I am pretty sure the Heretics had a Champion.

Btw, here is a tip how to win against heretics with a Strikesquad, or with a commander. Position yourself so that you can't get surrounded. Or if you are in Melee with Heretics AND for example the plaguemarine, focus the plaguemarine (if your units can get to him without being doomblasted first). Then if the Tics join in, they can get hit from the specials that hit the Commander (I think ).

[Torpid]

Banshees do not lose to heretics... Sluggas beat heretics. Banshee do more dps and have higher hp than heretics, so the lack of specials doesn't even matter. Tics lose models fast which swiftly reduces their dps.

[Lichtbringer]

after the base hp buff, yeah. Forgot about that. But the SS vs Banshees was also with their old hp in mind.

[KoolKev77]

I almost always win against chaos in first engagement as gk. And nearly all the tics in the squad gets wiped when I get in the first engagement. Gets better with next patch when everyone gets more xp from killing tics.

SS will beat tics without aspiring champion. I really don't believe it's just a regular squad with ac.

And yeah, inquisitorial stormtroopers can't outrun a melee charge. And they can't really go anywhere alone early 3v3 game because they're so fragile.

[Hellstar]

Doomblast wiped out the strike squad? I dont believe

It sure did. Of course there was probably some melee back-and-forth going on too, but the 2 squads met, there was a BOOM!, and the result was a dead strike squad and a still-living heretic squad.

You really don't want to be engaging heretics in melee with your units.

So a cheap 210 req tier 0 unit has the characteristic that "you really don't want to engage them in melee with your units?" Sounds a little strange to me as far as balance goes, but whatever.

Strike squad should win if you get some shots in before they engage, and you should also be using WATH when they do get stuck in.

Strike squad certainly did not win on two different tests - one without upgrade, and one with upgrade. No WATH because these were simple unit tests with no commanders or other things being used.

Generally if you kite with IST and SS you should be able to focus them down.

I get that an IST should have to kite (I tried, his heretics were actually faster and caught me). But an SS is more than twice the cost, is clad in heavy armor, has the melee aura which reduces incoming melee damage, and is billed as a squad that is not as good ranged but makes up for it in melee, and on top of that the grey knights theme (correct me if I am wrong) is supposed to be the "elite of the elite" and "toughest of the tough," yet this SS is supposed to run away from a lowly heretic squad, and kite it? Again correct any of my assumptions if they are wrong, but sounds a little odd to me.

First off, I'm really suspicious of SS losing to tic in a straight fight.

Well it happened twice so try it yourself I guess and see what results you get. Perhaps it was just extremely bad luck with a random number generator, but like I said try it yourself and see what happens.

Did the SS not fire at all on the way in?

I dunno but why should it matter? Aren't grey knights supposed to be tough and elite? Isn't a SS more than twice the cost of a heretic? Doesn't SS have heavy armor? Isn't SS supposed to be melee-focused? Etc. Etc. Etc.

Anyway, the way GK deals with tics is the way they deal with almost everything T1: kite a LOT

Do I have the grey knight theme wrong? I thought they were supposed to be like space marines but even more elite and perhaps more tough? If so then why do they have to kite everything T1? Sounds like advice one would give to an eldar player, or imperial guard, not tough space marines.

Default heretics certainly don't beat default strike squad.

Well we did the test twice so I don't know what else you want me to do. Look, I might be a sucky player - I admit that to anyone. But it doesn't take much in the way of skill to click "force melee" button on a strike squad and then click on a heretic squad. I don't know how I could have screwed the test up.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a grey knight fanboy, nor a hater of chaos. I had never played grey knights before, nor any marine variant. I was just interested in them and decided to do some simple tests before trying them out. The point is, I have no dog in the fight, I don't really care who won or who lost the engagement, we (partner and I) simply found the results surprising is all, and I thought I'd inquire about it.

[Cheekie Monkie]

If we followed lore a single strike squad will be enough to hold off the entire Chaos army.

In any case, the developing theme of the army is one of a small inquisition force initially scouting the area, with the meat and force of the main army on the way. That means that in the early stages of the game, just because GK are meant to be elite and super tough doesn't mean that they don't know how to fight smart and have to charge into every single threat they see.

In this regard, strike squads are primarily a ranged support squad with above average melee capabiliities. The keywords here are 'ranged support' and 'above average melee' they provide fire support to the real speartip of the army (i.e. the Brother Captain) and bringing their melee to bear only against wounded melee opponents or ranged units who can't possibly fight them in melee.

This means that cost for cost, strike squads will lose to dedicated melee, even heretics cost for cost (I don't know how an unupgraded tic squad beat your strikes, even the best of the best knows that you need to shoot before you swing you sword). They will even lose to dedicated ranged squads (again, remembering the keywords 'ranged support' and 'above average melee'). It just means that they're more generalist and flexible than even tactical marines.

[Lichtbringer]

The theme of GK is that they start out with weaker units (Stormtroopers) an then get big powerarmorunits on the field later (Paladins).
So your weak IST (stormtroopers) have to kite.

From my calculations, I can actually see a unupgraded Heretic squad almost beating a Strikesquad in melee if no shots were fired, especially with a good timed doomblast.

I understand your reaction to this, I myself was quite puzzled at how strong heretics seem to be. Even if they slightly loose against meleesquads that cost twice their price, they wreck them if they counterinitiate AND have the really strong doomblast with surpression from the get go. And then they can also be usefull while sitting back and worshipping? Also they are quite good against heroes who rely on specialattacks to deal with them, because you can't special them. And that for 210 Req? And thats all without the Aspiring Champion that always dies last gives the squad 20% more hp, detects, and really turns meleefights.

But, you have to look at the overall balance of the Factions and also Rangedfire drops their models reeeally fast.
I have really not much clue about GK, mabye this is already outdated but I heard many people use 3 IST + a rhino in T1. Ungodly kite potential.

Back in my head I still feel like Heretics offer to much for their prize, but I can deal with them Also they get porbably indirectly nerfed next patch, by giving more red to the enemy.

[Hellstar]

In any case, the developing theme of the army is one of a small inquisition force initially scouting the area...

This is the kind of stuff that needs to be put ON PAPER (er... on the forums) for every single faction. I'm sure the hardcore here have it all committed to memory from just experience or word-of-mouth or whatever. But nobody else coming in knows this stuff, and they aren't going to learn any of it without literally thousands of hours of playtime, and they won't even be able to get that because there are far too few noobs to play with to obtain knowledge, and noobs playing with pros is just dumb (unless the pros are actively trying to teach the noobs).

I'm sure I have many things wrong about many factions, just because I have nothing else to go on and thus just bring a general theme with me from the lore and what not. For instance my guess is that orks are good in numbers so I spam them in hordes and try to blob them. For all I know you'd tell me the theme is completely different.

Anyway, I'd encourage some kind of synopsis to be published on every race.

[Hellstar]

I understand your reaction to this, I myself was quite puzzled at how strong heretics seem to be. Even if they slightly loose against meleesquads that cost twice their price, they wreck them if they counterinitiate AND have the really strong doomblast with surpression from the get go. And then they can also be usefull while sitting back and worshipping? Also they are quite good against heroes who rely on specialattacks to deal with them, because you can't special them. And that for 210 Req? And thats all without the Aspiring Champion that always dies last gives the squad 20% more hp, detects, and really turns meleefights.

...

Back in my head I still feel like Heretics offer to much for their prize....

I feel you bro. And I'm not talking about GK here. I'm talking any race or any unit I've ever used against a heretic squad.

[Cyris]

The theme of GK is that they start out with weaker units (Stormtroopers) an then get big powerarmorunits on the field later (Paladins).
So your weak IST (stormtroopers) have to kite.

From my calculations, I can actually see a unupgraded Heretic squad almost beating a Strikesquad in melee if no shots were fired, especially with a good timed doomblast.

True and true. I say SS beat tics because 9 times out of 10 as soon as I see tics start moving up, I focus them with the SS, and any other units I have around. If you force melee a SS to a tic as they close, you are giving up a large part of your advantage. You will lose 50% damage from moving accuracy, and even more from reducing the amount of time you have to fire. A SS standing in cover, firing at a tic squad that is closing in for melee WILL win. On the other hand, a full health tic squad suddenly in melee with a SS will put the hurt on, but that scenario is so improbable in that it's hardly worth considering. If the units were rebalanced so SS won the straight brawl decisively, a modicum of kiting on the GK players part would make tics were absolutely worthless.

In general, I do think tics are borderline OP with the amount of utility they bring relative to their cost, but they do bleed horribly. A little focus fire before the melee will get them low enough to fend off, or even wipe.

As for GK being a kite focused race, just try to think about them renamed to "Inquisitorial Forces" and the faction makes much more sense. They scout with IST and soon Special Operatives, supported by Rhinos and maybe a single strike squad, but over time they field more Grey Knights to deal with the zenos and heretics.

[Wise Windu]

This is the kind of stuff that needs to be put ON PAPER (er... on the forums) for every single faction.

Err...it is on the forums, and was actually written by Caeltos in a thread you made, so... Could be pinned on one of the sub-forums or something, I suppose. GK has progressive scaling through tiers.

viewtopic.php?p=39988#p39988

I get that an IST should have to kite (I tried, his heretics were actually faster and caught me).

Heretics have speed 5 and IST have speed 5.5. The only way they could have caught them is if they were close enough to get into melee charge. At that point, it's too late. You need to fire a quick burst, and then back away before they have time to close the distance. IST weapon range is 38, and melee charge range of heretics is 12, so there should be enough wiggle room to kite.

[Hellstar]

Err...it is on the forums, and was actually written by Caeltos in a thread you made, so... Could be pinned on one of the sub-forums or something, I suppose. GK has progressive scaling through tiers.

yes his writeup was helpful, but not helpful enough. "progressive scaling through tiers" doesn't tell me that grey knights shouldn't be thought of as some elite marine faction. it doesn't tell me that they are more of a kiting race. my guess is i really don't know jack about how most factions work. that probably applies to most everybody except the hardcore players.

his paragraph on the races was a start, and was probably what i was asking for at the time. i guess i'm saying "the more writeup, the better."

[Torpid]

Err...it is on the forums, and was actually written by Caeltos in a thread you made, so... Could be pinned on one of the sub-forums or something, I suppose. GK has progressive scaling through tiers.

yes his writeup was helpful, but not helpful enough. "progressive scaling through tiers" doesn't tell me that grey knights shouldn't be thought of as some elite marine faction. it doesn't tell me that they are more of a kiting race. my guess is i really don't know jack about how most factions work. that probably applies to most everybody except the hardcore players.

his paragraph on the races was a start, and was probably what i was asking for at the time. i guess i'm saying "the more writeup, the better."

"most everybody except the hardcore players" - you probably shouldn't assume the majority of the playerbase is so vocally ignorant as yourself.

You know there's some enjoyment to be had in actually improving one's own skill off of one's own back rather than being baby-sitted the entire way? How do you think "hardcore players" gained their knowledge of their game in the first place?

For the record, I think heretic's shittiness is the only reason it is deemed balanced for chaos havocs to be so good and have melee resist (which still is imba), noise marines, the amazing csm at 400 req and the very very potent noise marines on top of raptors...

[Hellstar]

"most everybody except the hardcore players" - you probably shouldn't assume the majority of the playerbase is so vocally ignorant as yourself.

Hello! You must be the resident troll on these forums, or at least one of them. That's twice you've insulted me in this thread with no provocation whatsoever. This was the first time:

HT beats every other hero 1v1. Clearly HT completely OP! Why does anybody play anything other than HT???

Because that's what I implied, right? "Heretics clearly OP! Why does anyone play anything else!" Right?

To address your statement above, I think you are wrong. I think I should assume that most, if not all, non-hardcore players are as "vocally ignorant as myself." If I were betting in Vegas, that's where I'd place my bet.

You know there's some enjoyment to be had in actually improving one's own skill off of one's own back rather than being baby-sitted the entire way?

Hey, great - if that's how you get your enjoyment, be my guest. I personally find that sort of process kind of dumb, and would rather post my findings on the forum, and ask questions. That's how I get my enjoyment. To each his own.

[Torpid]

Hey, great - if that's how you get your enjoyment, be my guest. I personally find that sort of process kind of dumb, and would rather post my findings on the forum, and ask questions. That's how I get my enjoyment. To each his own.

If you actually asked a question in a proper, polite manner then you would get a polite response from me. I've played quite a lot of GK tbf. Probably the best GK player in 1v1 there is.

Your entire post was lined with a hubris of "I know it all". "My mindset of GK cannot be wrong and if it is then it isn't my fault - it is the mod developer's fault for not hand-guiding me towards being a pro". That's very annoying.

It is made worse when your hubris is very clearly such due to you making entirely absurd claims such as "heretics are faster than IST" when such information is openly available on the codex or "strike squad lose 1v1 to heretics" which is very obviously took to imply default heretics and strike squad are always meant to shoot up melee squads before they engage them 1 on 1 since, well, they have guns for a reason. If you have guns on a squad and we're wanting to do a 1v1 fight obviously the squad with guns shoots their foes up first before going into melee - they don't throw their guns away and charge in. How would that ever be optimal?

But then the whole notion of 1v1 fights is utterly idiotic, as through analogy, that would simply mean spam melee and only ever play tanky melee heroes. Heretic's main weakness is their fragility to ranged fire and as a consequence their ceaseless bleed throughout the entire game but especially in T1 relative to other melee squads. Their high models also mean the longer the fight goes on the less effective they get and they are vulnerable to AoE in an unprecedented manner. Battlecry, arbitrary special attacks, flamers, nades and the like slaughter heretics. As far as GK are concerned they die very fast to focus fire and sure your foe will overwhelm you if they just catapult default tics at default GK stuff, but they will lose models doing so whereas you retreat out before they can get into melee range so you don't. At first you lose map but as the game goes on tics will start to suck due to increased aoe presence and your units will have many levels from all the dead tics whereas his will be lv1 still.

A little humility would do nicely because your tone was obnoxious and it prevented me from wanting to help you. Ultimately then, I'm only trying to instill some humility into you here, but that's not for the sake of sadism but instead for altruism as I do want to help noobs and I do actively help noobs, but they of course need to recognise that it is their fault that they are a noob in the first place before they can improve.

I dunno what "non-hardcore" means and you haven't specified what it does so it's meaningless anyway. But you said that it would take thousands of hours to learn very simple parts of the game's macro. Not true at all. I know many players who learn this within less than 100hours of playing as they watch streams/casts and talk to players about DOW before even playing it, or a lot more than they play. I don't know if that was the case with Fredbrik but he has roughly 800hours and beats the best of us with well over 3000 consistently. The notion that "if I can't understand it, everyone else must also be stupid" is very off-putting to say the least when it comes to wanting to help you.

[Hellstar]

A little humility would do nicely because your tone was obnoxious and it prevented me from wanting to help you.

Hello again! How are you? Anyway, great - let us both agree that you don't want to help me, and that I don't want your help... on anything, ever, whether now or in the future. How does that sound?

I wish you all the best!

[Cyris]

Hello again! How are you? Anyway, great - let us both agree that you don't want to help me, and that I don't want your help... on anything, ever, whether now or in the future. How does that sound?

To be honest, you've directly contradicted or told off everyone else who tried to help you, and your initial post was unnecessarily confrontational for a real "help" request. Torpid is the only one "troll" enough to call you out. You clearly don't want help, you want people to agree with your bitching, or to bitch back so the cycle can continue.

PS: You'd have done much better if you talked about how weak SM are Hating on GK is rather popular.

[Hellstar]

To be honest, you've directly contradicted or told off everyone else who tried to help you, and your initial post was unnecessarily confrontational for a real "help" request.... You clearly don't want help....

Ok... I can see what is happening. The troll has friends here, and the "insiders" are now circling the wagons and rallying with the troll against the "outsider." Mostly this is being done by accusations against me for things which never occurred ("told off everyone," "unnecessarily confrontational," etc). Hey, no problem. If that's the way this place is, I'm not here to stir the pot. I see no reason to continue and will just move on.

But I want to clarify for those who are interested... you are right. I clearly did not want help. In fact, I never asked for help, anywhere in my post. This was not a "help" thread. It was a discussion thread, and nothing more. "I observed X. Is this intended? If so, how/why?"

PS: You'd have done much better if you talked about how weak SM are Hating on GK is rather popular.

Again I guess I must clarify for those interested. I didn't "hate" on GK.

[Ven]

im sorry to say this but a single, unupgraded heretic squad will NOT beat a strike squad. you must have been seeing things if they did.

however, a heretic squad with an AC will handily wreck a SS if given the time to get off enough doomblasts and its in a purely unit vs unit situation. did the heretics have the upgrade without you noticing?

heretics have very little HP so usually when fighting a composition rather than a single unit they are shot down before they even get in to combat, especially past T1. A unit vs unit comparison is never really valid as game balance and how the game is played revolves around army composition and map control, not around a single unit fighting another single unit in a fight to the death.

also allow me to apologize if anyone offended you, im sure noone here meant it.
however, people; inculding myself can and will get pretty rowdy when someone that is reletively new to the game will try to out-argue Torpid of all people, which is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced 1v1 players in the community.
if people on the forums that have 3000+ hours say to you that its impossible that a tic squad wiped a SS squad one on one, then simply you need to find out what exactly happened, maybe by supplying a replay of the game in question, do not throw it back in their faces saying "no, it happened! *provides no replay as proof*" because that is what you would call being naive

[Atlas]

Heretics themselves aren't as big of a deal as GK. Your ISTs can kite them fairly well even vanilla, strike squads can prove a match and purgations all but remove them from the field.

Usually though, heretics are supported by other units. For the general GK vs Chaos T1, I'd say that optimally (in the next patch) you'll want to grab probably both a Rhino and an Operatives squad, and try to force a shooting match in T1. Strikes can easily beat CSM in melee so if you force the Chaos player to try and go ranged heavy, your melee superiority (sans Tics)can shine through and you can focus fire heretics off the field if they try to intervene.

[Hellstar]

also allow me to apologize if anyone offended you, im sure noone here meant it.
however, people; inculding myself can and will get pretty rowdy when someone that is reletively new to the game will try to out-argue Torpid of all people, which is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced 1v1 players in the community.
if people on the forums that have 3000+ hours say to you that its impossible that a tic squad wiped a SS squad one on one, then simply you need to find out what exactly happened, maybe by supplying a replay of the game in question, do not throw it back in their faces saying "no, it happened! *provides no replay as proof*" because that is what you would call being naive

I'm sorry... is that what happened? I tried to "out-argue" Torpid on something game-related? Are we reading the same post? Because in the post I'm reading, I responded to him twice, and neither time did I address or argue with him about his knowledge of the game; rather, it was his extreme rudeness that I took issue with.

Is this some new internet debate tactic that I'm unfamiliar with - continuous accusations of things that never happened? Strange, because any rational objective person with a modicum of reading-comprehension ability can simply read everything that is written here and know what was said and what wasn't said.

Do you just want me to leave? Fine - I have no problem doing that. If this is some kind of private clique with no outsiders wanted... I "get" that, I guess. It seems you could just ask though, rather than doing this "we'll just keep accusing the guy of things he didn't do and hope he leaves" kind of thing, which I find rather odd.

[Wise Windu]

Okay, everyone needs to calm down a bit. All arguing about this is doing is driving the thread further off topic. So either get back on topic, or I'd personally vote to have the thread locked. Answers to questions don't have to be given mixed with insults, regardless of the tone of a post.

[Hellstar]

So either get back on topic, or I'd personally vote to have the thread locked.

Hi, I'm the OP. Not sure if that gives me any "sway" in the voting or not, but if it does, I'd say go ahead and lock it and I'll be on my merry way. I don't see anything productive coming out of it at this juncture.

[Sub_Zero]

In a 1 v 1 situation heretics are bad against a lot of units. Their point is to worship and use their abilities to support main forces - either in their melee form or in the ranged one. In this role they work really well. With proper micromanagement IST (in their default form or with any weapon equipped) never lose to melee heretics. Strike squads/csm/tacs never lose to default melee heretics. All you need to do is shoot them on their approach (strike squads will fuck them really hard even on approach) and then when they are about to engage, doomblast and lose a model, you have to force melee on them so your squad doesn't lose time to get to smack them because of being suppressed. A lot of players lack this knowledge that whenever you engage a melee unit that can suppress you (banshees, tics) with your ranged unit (strikes, csm, tacs) you have to force melee on them to make your squad move and prevent it from losing time and potential melee hits because of suppression.

GK are amongst the best or the best for first engagements. For some heroes it is a nightmare to face them and since the first engagement they dominate so hard that sometimes it is impossible to fight back.

[Hellstar]

A lot of players lack this knowledge that whenever you engage a melee unit that can suppress you (banshees, tics) with your ranged unit (strikes, csm, tacs) you have to force melee on them to make your squad move and prevent it from losing time and potential melee hits because of suppression.

I guess I don't "get" what you are saying. Are you saying it is possible to avoid suppression by some kind of trick or exploit? If so, isn't that... an exploit? Or are you saying something different?

Either way, yes, a lot of players will lack such "hidden knowledge." Sounds like something that could only be learned either by word of mouth, playing thousands of hours, or in this case, starting a forum thread and being told it by a poster. I guess a lot of people enjoy the "hidden knowledge" thing, but I personally am an advocate of having all gameplay mechanics and everything else written down so people can find it easily and utilize it.

Thanks for the info.