2.4 Balance Feedback

[GR)))]

Not really a balance thing, but why is one of the new maps snow-based? The white background just makes it much more difficult to see stuff like grenade timers, certain area effects and other things. I understand wanting some diversity in the themes, but anything other than snow would be better.

Also, purgation needs to be moved back to T1.

[Hellstar]

Interceptors ARE AMAZING!!!! They're like tanky warp spiders that can destroy anything! REALLY GOOD against vehicles! The melta bombs go off instantly now too!

Well I guess I can try them, but the way I see it, they compete with terminators and paladins (which are also T3 teleporting units), and I always need and build those. I can't see choosing an interceptor over a terminator or paladin, but I'll just force myself to build one and see what happens.

Infiltration on ops drains enough energy. My ops are almost always running out of energy between tossing bombs and stealthing. The satchel is fine. Yes, it can blow up an entire gen in one go, but I find myself using it more for blowing up artillery and capping units that the player isn't paying attention to. Running all the way to the gen to blow up one isn't as worth it as blowing up a whirlwind or a scout squad that isn't paying attention.

People complain that you can blow up entire gen farms with 1 satchel. The most I've ever been able to get is two gens, and that was only once. The rest of the times, I could only get one. And that's if I manage to not get the stupid operative killed on the way to the gen farm (usually he runs into trouble on the way there).

The satchel is T2 - it is fine. Actually, at my skill level, I don't think I'll bother building these guys anymore - too much trouble and too fragile for their utility, and I have to wait until T2 before I can even attempt to blow anything up. What are they going to do for me until then?

[Forestradio]

Paladins were not underperforming prior to 2.4 at all, now with retreating, hp regen, sidearms still overperforming (incinerator still turning blobs into BBQ in a matter of seconds), shockwave, and retreat it's completely out of hand.

Tanks are easily dealt with with teleport (on a 200+ heavy melee dps squad, more with mind blades/shrouding) and then just retreat if the situation is sticky, melee units are wrecked by shockwave, ranged units by sidearms with FOTM. Still loads of support for them: shrouding, ward, WATH, all of these things had a very strong synergy with paladins before, people just refused to use the options they had, so what is there left to do except die? There is so much control with holy ground/shockwave, so much dps and damage resistance all over the place that they just overperform to a ridiculous extent.

Also, part of their design as an anti-all squad to to be vulnerable to being swarmed by cheap power melee, same as assault terminators with hammer/shield. Shockwave completely changed that around.

This is all 1v1 I'm talking about, I have a replay of 2.3.1 H2 against Lindonin's Farseer where paladins sealed the game and performed just fine.

[Hellstar]

Paladins were not underperforming prior to 2.4 at all, now with retreating, hp regen, sidearms still overperforming (incinerator still turning blobs into BBQ in a matter of seconds), shockwave, and retreat it's completely out of hand.

Tanks are easily dealt with with teleport (on a 200+ heavy melee dps squad, more with mind blades/shrouding) and then just retreat if the situation is sticky, melee units are wrecked by shockwave, ranged units by sidearms with FOTM. Still loads of support for them: shrouding, ward, WATH, all of these things had a very strong synergy with paladins before, people just refused to use the options they had, so what is there left to do except die?

I'm asking this as a genuine question, not as a wisecrack or a snark or anything else. Why haven't I seen much in the way of GK since playing this mod? Even on something like Idrid's faction wars, you seen them played in season 1 (they lost), and they never make another appearance. So their last appearance there was like... 2012 or 2013?

All I see online when playing is sm, sm, sm, another sm.... It will be a big red flag for me once I see nothing but gk, gk, gk, hell another gk... Or once I start seeing high-skill players on casts and online replays rolling face with them.

People like to play the OP faction in every game I've ever played.

[Lichtbringer]

Paladins were not underperforming prior to 2.4 at all, now with retreating, hp regen, sidearms still overperforming (incinerator still turning blobs into BBQ in a matter of seconds), shockwave, and retreat it's completely out of hand.

Tanks are easily dealt with with teleport (on a 200+ heavy melee dps squad, more with mind blades/shrouding) and then just retreat if the situation is sticky, melee units are wrecked by shockwave, ranged units by sidearms with FOTM. Still loads of support for them: shrouding, ward, WATH, all of these things had a very strong synergy with paladins before, people just refused to use the options they had, so what is there left to do except die?

I'm asking this as a genuine question, not as a wisecrack or a snark or anything else. Why haven't I seen much in the way of GK since playing this mod? Even on something like Idrid's faction wars, you seen them played in season 1 (they lost), and they never make another appearance. So their last appearance there was like... 2012 or 2013?

All I see online when playing is sm, sm, sm, another sm.... It will be a big red flag for me once I see nothing but gk, gk, gk, hell another gk... Or once I start seeing high-skill players on casts and online replays rolling face with them.

People like to play the OP faction in every game I've ever played.

Thats because they are new I would guess.
Many players had a favorite race before, or atleast a race with which they were most practiced. You would need to start from scratch when you want to main them. Also untill recently they were bad (I think), so no one played them. Or atleast no one liked the way they played.
For me personally its also that they are "in" the SM faction, so if I look through the selection I don't see them New players also are less likely to play them because of this, + purgationsquads are not your standart Supression team. People who like the fluff of Greyknighs I think are a little bummed because you play with so much Inquisitorial units in the beginning.
Also fluffwise, I don't think Greyknights are that popular as a subfaction, compared to full factions.

[Forestradio]

If people only played the most OP faction every game would be a Lictor Alpha mirror, especially in tournaments.

Watch this game please: http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=303486

[ThaMollusk]

LA would be the most fun/OP champ to play if his hook didn't bug and the Chaos Lord didn't exist. (CL isn't fun, he just ruins the LA's fun)

[Hellstar]

If people only played the most OP faction every game would be a Lictor Alpha mirror, especially in tournaments.

Watch this game please: http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=303486

Your game wouldn't load. Is it an old patch?

Anyway, people absolutely play the OP faction. Anyone who plays games on the internet knows about the phenomenon. It's just a widely known fact.

Having said that, this game's user base is so small that it could very well be that standard statistics and models for this kind of thing don't apply. In other words, maybe you're right.

I just lost a full strength brother captain in literal seconds to a devastator. There was no time to react. It wasn't firing plasma or anything fancy. I watched the replay and clicked on it - there was no upgrade that I could tell. Aren't there some kind of special round the thing can fire? If so, why isn't losing a BC in literal seconds to one of these things not considered OP? I'll lose a squad to shotgun scouts in the early game before there's even time to double click the squad icon and scroll over to it to see what's going on. Why isn't that considered OP? Again, not being a smart ass - I seriously want to know.

[Swift]

People like to play the OP faction in every game I've ever played.

Then everyone plays LA. The reason people don't play GK is because they are uused to their faction, it has absolutely nothing to do with being OP. If GK were twice as strong you'd never see them played still.

And your comment on factions appearing in faction wars is irrelevant.

[appiah4]

I will play SM and Orks no matter what power tier, it's a matter of taste. I can't have even a fraction of the fun while playing Chaos/Eldar/IG/GK. Tyranids, I can stand.

[Max_Damage]

This went too far indeed. Paladins. 5250 HP super heavy infantry, can retreat, hav TWO get-out-of-here abilities, extreme powerful sidearms and heavy melee dps effectively anti all ultimate squad. Also ton of support abilities for them from the faction itself. Also the new ability is super good.

There s a reason relic banned retreat from terminators. There s also a reason terminators only had 1 teleport on a rather big cooldown.

Yeah this went too far. Also, we all know how annoying the scouts are and imo there was no need to copy paste them across the GK faction. Infiltration 6.5 speed etc. Some factions cap 2 times better then the others.

Terminators have the snowball effect. The paladins have avalance effect then.
Might not be bad in 1v1s tho because they are kinda super late.

[Dark Riku]

People like to play the OP faction in every game I've ever played.

That is not how 40K (DoW2) works

LA would be the most fun/OP champ to play if his hook didn't bug and the Chaos Lord didn't exist. (CL isn't fun, he just ruins the LA's fun)

Flesh hook doesn't bug and the LA can do plenty vs the CL.

I just lost a full strength brother captain in literal seconds to a devastator. There was no time to react. It wasn't firing plasma or anything fancy. I watched the replay and clicked on it - there was no upgrade that I could tell. Aren't there some kind of special round the thing can fire? If so, why isn't losing a BC in literal seconds to one of these things not considered OP? I'll lose a squad to shotgun scouts in the early game before there's even time to double click the squad icon and scroll over to it to see what's going on. Why isn't that considered OP? Again, not being a smart ass - I seriously want to know.

seconds is plenty time to react Every suppression team does more damage the closer you get to them. Devastators have the option for the vengeance rounds upgrade. It's not considered OP because you are not supposed to stand in any suppression team's firing arc for any amount of time, let alone stand for multiple seconds. You losing your squad to shotgun scouts means that you are not paying attention to your squads at all. You need to stay on top of your awareness.

[Cheekie Monkie]

before there's even time to double click the squad icon and scroll over to it to see what's going on. Why isn't that considered OP?

Scrolling over
Double clicking the squad icon

There's your problem. Also not a smartass answer, you should make the best effort to use keybinds as much as possible as things dying withing seconds is a staple thing in this game. The difference between you noticing a grenade one second earlier or later is the difference between living or dying.

[appiah4]

This went too far indeed. Paladins. 5250 HP super heavy infantry, can retreat, hav TWO get-out-of-here abilities, extreme powerful sidearms and heavy melee dps effectively anti all ultimate squad. Also ton of support abilities for them from the faction itself. Also the new ability is super good.

There s a reason relic banned retreat from terminators. There s also a reason terminators only had 1 teleport on a rather big cooldown.

Yeah this went too far. Also, we all know how annoying the scouts are and imo there was no need to copy paste them across the GK faction. Infiltration 6.5 speed etc. Some factions cap 2 times better then the others.

Terminators have the snowball effect. The paladins have avalance effect then.
Might not be bad in 1v1s tho because they are kinda super late.

Yeah, Paladins look broken as ALL FUCK but then they are this Mod's lovechild so..

[Torpid]

This went too far indeed. Paladins. 5250 HP super heavy infantry, can retreat, hav TWO get-out-of-here abilities, extreme powerful sidearms and heavy melee dps effectively anti all ultimate squad. Also ton of support abilities for them from the faction itself. Also the new ability is super good.

There s a reason relic banned retreat from terminators. There s also a reason terminators only had 1 teleport on a rather big cooldown.

Yeah this went too far. Also, we all know how annoying the scouts are and imo there was no need to copy paste them across the GK faction. Infiltration 6.5 speed etc. Some factions cap 2 times better then the others.

Terminators have the snowball effect. The paladins have avalance effect then.
Might not be bad in 1v1s tho because they are kinda super late.

Whoever you are. You are right. But everyone knew that making GK termies retreat was retarded but oh well. Who cares? We just do shit for shits-and-giggles here!

[PhatE]

The new patch has made me confused about my sexuality...

I just don't know what is happening anymore. All the timings are bizarre and the new abilities and unit perks make me wonder what I'm looking at.

I'm not sure why Nids now get a call the boyz global whilst getting two extra squads. Fighting Grey Knights is also something that feels taboo. Can we go back to something that doesn't make me feel like I'm in the massive orgy from eyes wide shut?

[Cheekie Monkie]

Sounds like paladins are causing a shockwave in the forums.

Don't worry, I'm sure Caeltos has a fallback plan.

[krakza]

Sounds like paladins are causing a shockwave in the forums.

Don't worry, I'm sure Caeltos has a fallback plan.

[Forestradio]

Your game wouldn't load. Is it an old patch?

Yes. 2.3.1 H2.

[Vapor]

The retreat cooldown on GK Termies/Palas doesn't really have an impact (outside of making it impossible to retreat repeatedly to beacons). It's just not enough time to wait, I always seem to have retreat ready to go by the end of the next engagement anyway.


How about this for a solution: increase retreat cd to 5 or 6 minutes and disable all abilities (including teleport) during the cooldown. This way the retreat would only be used in absolutely dire situations to escape, and the terminators would be relegated to a backline support role until the cooldown wears off, crippling any engagement that occurs during that time.

Or, hp could be further reduced. I actually like the idea of retreat in theory because GK t3 is very reliant on their terminators/palas, and a train of super tanky units that just yolorush in and have a huge amount of hp and teleport is just bad game design IMO. (It's different for SM/Chaos because it takes a loooooong time to field multiple terminators and they cost red.) Retreat with reduced hp sounds fine, they just didn't lose nearly enough in exchange for the retreat.

Also the shockwave is ridic but you knew that already

[egewithin]

Well well, I always warned you about that retreat problem on Termies but who listened me? Ahahahahaaa!!! Eat it! Now I always play GK for these OP abilitys. NO! Not for OP abilitys actually. I just want to be annoying and show you that I was right about what I was saying.

Also, we can switch voices of Bro Cap and FC. Since everyone wants the old voice back for FC cause it fits, we can change the voice of BC since it doesn't fits. If it fits, I sits. Bla bla bla bla.

[DandyFrontline]

Well well, I always warned you about that retreat problem on Termies but who listened me? Ahahahahaaa!!! Eat it! Now I always play GK for these OP abilitys. NO! Not for OP abilitys actually. I just want to be annoying and show you that I was right about what I was saying.

Also, we can switch voices of Bro Cap and FC. Since everyone wants the old voice back for FC cause it fits, we can change the voice of BC since it doesn't fits. If it fits, I sits. Bla bla bla bla.

Well, if im not wrong most of the ppl were talking about how bs termies retreat will be (including me) but who f**king cares about what peasants saying

[egewithin]

Well, if im not wrong most of the ppl were talking about how bs termies retreat will be (including me) but who f**king cares about what peasants saying

Actually they do listen us. But they wanted to try out this since GK T3 depends on only Terminators. They wanted to make GK late game much easyer. Do not mind too much what I said on top but still mind it.

Hey, if they are too powerfull, they will change them in the next patch. This is a balance mod. But they can't make every player happy you know.

[Hellstar]

seconds is plenty time to react

For you and the other "pros?" Absolutely. But for me and many other nooblets/low-skilled players (especially when we are trying to control multiple units)? I can assure you the answer is "no."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that balance should revolve around the low-skilled. I'm just throwing out my perspective.

You losing your squad to shotgun scouts means that you are not paying attention to your squads at all. You need to stay on top of your awareness.

I can assure you I am paying attention as much as it is possible for me to pay attention. I'm trying to manage like 3 squads in the game opening. "Click on unit 1, right click on map objective, click on unit 2, right click on map objective, click on unit 3, right cli... wait... wtf I'm getting some kind of warning! Is a unit being attacked? Which one? [double-clicks hotkey] DEAD UNIT TO SHOTGUN SCOUTS! ARRGH!"

With us noobs and low-skilled, balance is all about reaction time and micro ability. I have maybe 1% of what you have, okay? If I could play the game in slow motion I could make all the right decisions.

For all the people who say termies shouldn't be able to retreat: All I ever hear is that this is a "unit preservation game." Fine, so why not extend that to termies? If the answer is "because it is unfair that other termies can't retreat!" then what about giving those other termies the same ability? If someone says "then the late game 'degenerates' to playing with tier3 heavies" - sure, it is possible that some games (not all) would. But so what? What's wrong with that?

Just a perspective, nothing more.

And if Paladin's get shockwave and retreat removed, then shouldn't we be able to build more than one? I thought "can build only one!" 3rd tier units (unclean one, avatar) were supposed to be powerful, have lots of abilities and spells, etc. A paladin is probably already tame compared to an unclean one anyway. So if you nerf it more, can I build more than one?

[Vapor]

^ every race has a unit that does damage comparable to shotgun scouts. In the case of GK, just buy operatives, infiltrate them and surprise an enemy with a burst. If their micro is shit they will lose the squad just as you do

I do think that if paladins were properly balanced there would be no problem with having more than one

[Hellstar]

^ every race has a unit that does damage comparable to shotgun scouts. In the case of GK, just buy operatives

At the time I was playing Eldar. What's their tier 1 unit that can insta-wipe? Avengers with grenades? Using those to wipe one of his squads would take way more micro and luck than what he has to do. What if his squad is moving (like mine was when it ran into his shotgun scouts)? I'd have to predict the unit's path, throw the grenade exactly where he's gonna be in X seconds, account for the timer, etc. Now, what does he have to do to wipe my squad? Mash the "shotgun" button.

[Wise Windu]

Scout shotgun maximum range is 26 to the Dire Avengers' 38. Kite back your DA as he approaches and you should be able to keep your Dire Avengers alive, even though scouts do have faster movement speed. And with the piercing damage DA can put out, it might be possible to pick off a model before then.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Scout shotgun maximum range is 26 to the Dire Avengers' 38. Kite back your DA as he approaches and you should be able to keep your Dire Avengers alive, even though scouts do have faster movement speed. And with the piercing damage DA can put out, it might be possible to pick off a model before then.

It basically comes down to what Windu said. DAs are not meant to go toe to toe with shotgun scouts (or Operatives for that matter) in close range. DAs should be used in such a way that they make maximum use of their range superiority combined with their shields.

[Hellstar]

It basically comes down to what Windu said. DAs are not meant to go toe to toe with shotgun scouts (or Operatives for that matter) in close range. DAs should be used in such a way that they make maximum use of their range superiority combined with their shields.

Yes of course - that's obvious. Re-read my depiction (in response to Dark Riku). I was describing a situation where a low-skill noob (me) was trying to manage 3 units off capping in different areas of the map during the open. I only have so much apm and reaction time. If I have clicked on, for instance, my hero, and am rick-clicking him onto a resource point to capture, and meanwhile my DAs which I previously ordered to another point run into shotgun scouts while I'm trying to move said hero, what happens? They are wiped before I can even react to the notification that they are under attack.

Again, I'm sure this isn't a problem for a Dark Riku or [insert high-skilled player name]. It is a problem for anyone who can't react within a 1/10 of a second - "react" meaning 1) notice "something going on," 2) call up a screen showing said "something going on," 3) click on appropriate unit or units, appropriately deal with "something going on."

Even the great unclean one doesn't wipe my squads the way they get wiped all the time to just tier 1 play. If the unclean one vomits on me, I usually have time to react and at least retreat before the squad is wiped. Assuming that doesn't happen, I'm still not pissed, because it is the great unclean one after all - it *should* be powerful. But shotgun scouts or several other forms of early game cheese I could name? I wonder about that.

I think vials are totally OP. But I've lost more squads, more quickly, to shotgun scouts than vials.

Twice I lost a 100% full health strike squad instantaneously to heretics' BOOM! 100% full heath. And not dead in one sec or 2 sec or 3 sec. *INSTANTLY* dead. Nobody believes it, but I have a witness who was present who saw both engagements. But people think a late game tier 3 paladin ability is OP? Again, its the early game cheese that bothers me. I expect, hell even want, late game stuff to be powerful.

[Adeptus Noobus]

It sounds like you are not using the A-Move then. If you were using this, your DAs would stop immediately if the scouts are in range and open fire. This would give you the 1-2 seconds to switch back to them.