2.4 Balance Feedback

[Wise Windu]

Then the focus should be on improving apm, unit awareness, and reaction time, right? Self-improvement is a major part of RTS. If a unit is nerfed to accommodate that, it could have a negative effect on the match-ups of players who are able to react in time.

[Hellstar]

Then the focus should be on improving apm, unit awareness, and reaction time, right? Self-improvement is a major part of RTS. If a unit is nerfed to accommodate that, it could have a negative effect on the match-ups of players who are able to react in time.

I basically agree, and already stated above that I don't *necessarily* advocate that game balance revolve around the noob skill level. However, I was trying to compare the outrage over a paladin spell to tier 1 squad wipes that occur all the time in early game that nobody apparently blinks an eye at. That was the comparison that I was trying to draw.

In my last game, I had a paladin squad and it was attacked at close range by a scout squad and a tactical marine squad. I used the new "avatar-like" spell - whatever it is called. It hit both squads squarely. He lost 1 tac marine model (maybe because it was already injured). He lost no other models, not even on the scout squad, but everything was hurt and he had to retreat it all. Now, compare that to me losing an entire squad in 1 second to shotgun scouts in the first 2-3 minutes of the game. Which thing was more powerful - the paladin ability or the shotgun scouts? Which thing caused more damage? Now, which thing by all rights and measures SHOULD be more powerful?

I'm just saying, if you are going to complain about one thing, you should systemically do a lot of thought on lots of other things, and perhaps complain about those things too.

[Swift]

Oh I care very much if I lose a squad early on, I'm not making build orders based upon losing squads. The difference is in what you lose. If I lose Heretics then that's a shame, but I'll repurchase them. It slows me putting gens down or getting another squad out, but they are only 210 requisition. The reason you may see squad wipes as being a big deal late game is they often get commented on by casters if units are lost frequently/they were a high level squad.

[EDIT]: If Shotguns are wiping your squads in a second and the Paladin ability is not doing enough, then you're playing it wrong Simple as.

[Adeptus Noobus]

It sounds like you are not using the A-Move then. If you were using this, your DAs would stop immediately if the scouts are in range and open fire. This would give you the 1-2 seconds to switch back to them.

I'll simply repeat what I have already said before. Use the A-move more often. If you don't, your units will just blindly run around while being shot at. That is what A-moving is for.

[Adeptus Noobus]

On a completely different topic:
[sarcasm=on]
has anybody noticed the insane damage Operatives dish out easily? Double Operatives just wrecks you in T1. Even worse than T1 Purgation + Rhino.
*Exageration mode=on*
In fact, as they can bash power in seconds (even in T1), they are Purgations+Rhino in one.
*Exageration mode=off*
Suppression? BC + 2 Ops takes care of that no problem (I can live with that, that's legit, that's what they are there for). But wait, why bother to stun when you can just walk up into range and shoot the enemy into oblivion. Congratulations, you have just dealt 120dmg in one burst. I might be wrong but it seems they do full dmg at medium-long range too. Enemy forced off? Let's have a look at that power farm - aaaaaaaand it's gone.
Let's see, I should buy me some Aspiring Champions because they can see them....Oh wait, keen sight radius 30 vs Operatives weapon range 30 (and that is only if he is not standing amidst the heretics or worse even behind the other models).
[sarcasm=off]
Their range should be the same as Scouts in my opinion to give detectors a little window of opportunity. Also, what are the range modifiers for their shotguns? One satchel charge wiping a complete power farm has been mentioned before iirc.

What do you guys think about this?

[Wise Windu]

Also, what are the range modifiers for their shotguns?

The shotguns don't have range modifiers. It's x1 at all distances.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Also, what are the range modifiers for their shotguns?

The shotguns don't have range modifiers. It's x1 at all distances.

[Atlas]

In general, I've received a lot of feedback specifically about GK and Eldar.

Disclaimers:
-I got most of this from all the cold calling I did today for the tournament, but naturally some chats expand to other things

-Obviously some individual players have their biases, so I kept that in mind when posting these. No names are being used since this is essentially hearsay. I'll only say that all this came from players I considered worthy of asking to participate in the tournament.

- This is all summations of opinions, so I'll be talking in general.

Feedback:
Eldar:
Ironically, the biggest complaints I've received about the Eldar changes have been Eldar players themselves. A lot of them has taken issue with the banshee changes and feel that fielding them is no longer worth the bleed that they incur. The charge was a large part of how they were able to get in and out of combat and they feel that the leap isn't worth the tradeoff.

They also add that the Wraithguard fire on the move losing accuracy, as well as the combined lower damage and speed, has put Wraithguard in a bad spot and often leading them to missing their shots or simply being too far to assist.

Another general note is that some players have expressed frustration at having being forced to purchase Warp Spiders for any ability to deal with vehicles in early-mid t2. The loss of the charge on the Banshee exarch has made them a lot less attractive of an option when trying to pursue a moving vehicle threat. They feel that this leaves a Brightlance as the only option to actually inflict AV damage and concerns about how easy it is to force off a single AV threat.

The D-Cannon change was also one that wasn't well received. The team has lost a lot of it's ability to dissuade vehicle threats from pushing the front lines.

As a general note for the faction, almost all of the feedback I received felt that Eldar was poorly equipped to handle vehicles as a whole and would like something done to help alleviate the pressure an early vehicle deals to them. Some suggestions were to add another snare to the army or to present some new t1 option that can scale into AV better.

Grey Knights:
While probably being the faction the most argued about, the comments are almost entirely focused on one of two things now: Operatives and Terminators.

In general, some feel that Operatives deal too much damage too quickly and there was a LOT of complaints about the satchel charge in particular. It's been noted that a satchel charge can be infiltrated behind enemy lines at 6.5 speed and that it can destroy generators in one hit. Another comment was that is was possible to wipe an entire farm (3 generators and the node) with one well placed charge so long as Mind Blades was placed on the Operatives.

As for Terminators, the retreat ability cooldown possibly needs some reworking and some had issues in general with the idea of retreating terminators. There's really not much to say on this one.

In good news, there hasn't been nearly as many complaints about Rhinos now

So for the faction, there's some feeling that particular units are pulling way too much of a load.
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Hope all that helps!

[Crewfinity]

I think losing purgations and interceptors has also weakened GK a lot in their ability to both push and defend against mass melee. not having any suppression in T1 really hurts against multiple melee units charging your front line, especially with a tanky melee hero. examples of this would be double hormagaunts+hive tyrant or double sluggas+warboss, there's simply not enough options to slow them down before they hit your front line. another problem is in GK's ability to deal with jump troops, particularly ASMs or raptors. with so many high-dps low health infantry squads, there's not much you can do once they get jumped. also, purgations are not a very attractive purchase in T2 for 400 req, when they require additional investment for psycannons. It's much more tempting to get upgrades or other new units like purifiers or a dreadnought. I really think they should be moved back to T1.

that's my 2 cents.

[Aguxyz]

Feedback:
Eldar:

Ironically, the biggest complaints I've received about the Eldar changes have been Eldar players themselves. A lot of them has taken issue with the banshee changes and feel that fielding them is no longer worth the bleed that they incur. The charge was a large part of how they were able to get in and out of combat and they feel that the leap isn't worth the tradeoff.

Im still surprised they did this i feel like making shees just regular melee would of been fine imo

They also add that the Wraithguard fire on the move losing accuracy, as well as the combined lower damage and speed, has put Wraithguard in a bad spot and often leading them to missing their shots or simply being too far to assist.

WraithGuard on move rapes tanks and can sometimes hit retreating squads and WraithGurads are still good vs IG

Another general note is that some players have expressed frustration at having being forced to purchase Warp Spiders for any ability to deal with vehicles in early-mid t2. The loss of the charge on the Banshee exarch has made them a lot less attractive of an option when trying to pursue a moving vehicle threat. They feel that this leaves a Brightlance as the only option to actually inflict AV damage and concerns about how easy it is to force off a single AV threat.

The D-Cannon change was also one that wasn't well received. The team has lost a lot of it's ability to dissuade vehicle threats from pushing the front lines.

As a general note for the faction, almost all of the feedback I received felt that Eldar was poorly equipped to handle vehicles as a whole and would like something done to help alleviate the pressure an early vehicle deals to them. Some suggestions were to add another snare to the army or to present some new t1 option that can scale into AV better.

Haven't played vs a D-Cannon yet so not much to say. They have alot of buffs and debuffs they don't need another snare. They have WraithLords and Fire Dragons....

Grey Knights:

While probably being the faction the most argued about, the comments are almost entirely focused on one of two things now: Operatives and Terminators.

In general, some feel that Operatives deal too much damage too quickly and there was a LOT of complaints about the satchel charge in particular. It's been noted that a satchel charge can be infiltrated behind enemy lines at 6.5 speed and that it can destroy generators in one hit. Another comment was that is was possible to wipe an entire farm (3 generators and the node) with one well placed charge so long as Mind Blades was placed on the Operatives.

As for Terminators, the retreat ability cooldown possibly needs some reworking and some had issues in general with the idea of retreating terminators. There's really not much to say on this one.

In good news, there hasn't been nearly as many complaints about Rhinos now

So for the faction, there's some feeling that particular units are pulling way too much of a load.

Operatives raping gens and Paladins op shockwave ability all i have to say

[Max_Damage]

By the way, if you nerf the D cannon the logical thing to do would be to nerf the zoans as well. Also, make the combi flamer scale into the tiers like you did with the custom shoota. Chaos dreadnought autocannon change is something i like. Give it 45-49 range to match that of assault cannon or give it an ability.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Eldar:

As a general note for the faction, almost all of the feedback I received felt that Eldar was poorly equipped to handle vehicles as a whole and would like something done to help alleviate the pressure an early vehicle deals to them. Some suggestions were to add another snare to the army or to present some new t1 option that can scale into AV better.

Fire Dragons: We're in the game too you know...
Everyone else: SHUT UP NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOU

I'd really like to see some feedback on this poorly underused (and completely revamped unit). In between brightlances, spider nades and the banshee exarch, was there any point in buying dragons? The exciting thing about this patch is that it forces people to rethink their options and form new combos which didn't exist before. Falcon + dragons to kill melee walkers? Dragons + webway/ranger stealth to deal with manticores? It's time to rewrite the book.

[KoolKev77]

Gk traded all the t1 goodies for ops, so ops has to make up for the roles that were lost. We're the only race to not have suppression in t1 so we need that damage to stop melee. And if I'm bashing power, I can't be supporting my units. I don't go 2x ops because it gets redundant in T2. Their value drops off quickly.

I really have a hard time against rangers because they detect and they move with the army. Suppression is also tricky to deal against if they have detectors. Can't stay long enough even with stun to kill setups if they're focusing me down. All in all, gk T1 lost their tankiness and traded it for map control.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Suppression has long been a key factor in T1 play across all races, so it's natural to want purgs back in T1. However, I do feel like good rhino and ops play is what will make the lynchpin of T1 as GK has shifted a lot from the big burly dudes in power armour in T1 into a game of maneuvring and gorilla warfare. With a single patch, GK has shifted into one of the most mobile and versatile factions in the game - you essentially get a more expensive sentinel with smoke grenades and transport capability, as well the bastard child of scouts and catachans on crack as a tradeoff. Players have to exploit this to counter the seemingly obvious route of the melee zerg rush. Literally dropping stun bombs at your feet so the enemy can't dodge then letting the rest of your army do the work is certainly an option. Terma support wrecking your stunned ops? Fall back, then move into melee with purified blade BC, strikes and even warrior acolyte ISTs (they do decently against low melee skill enemies such as low health tacs, hormas and ranged commanders). if things get too much, you still have a rhino as a...fallback plan

My point is that we should wait and see how things roll out instead of reverting back to the status quo, as both the rhino and ops offer unlimited potential only practically limited by player skill and imagination.

P.S. However, I do think that vanilla purgs underperform in T2. Gen bashing can be done competently with ops and they remain as vulnerable as ever to jump troops, which the enemy is likely to have since T1.

[saltychipmunk]

All i can say is GK .. holy shit powerful

the operatives do too many things right now , i imagine a side effect of replacing both the counter melee unit AND the counter setup units gk used to have.

they destroy melee with their 60 ranged dps , they counter blobs of ranged with the stun grenade , that upgrade they get makes them extremely easy to cheese harras with when their base movement speed was more than enough. they do the job of 2 squads for the price of 1 so something does need to change.

personally i would get rid of that retreat upgrade and the satchel upgrade along with either reducing their dps / their range / or increasing their cost to 300 35.

the gk terminators are way too capable for a unit with no red associated with them. they are absolutely superior to comparable heavy hitter melee units of other races. .. for their cost. poor nobs T-T.

a side note , i love the models who ever did em did a good job, and i mean all the models not just the ops.

[egewithin]

In army painter, my Ultramarines Vereneble was ummm, broken and half unloaded. Do you have the same too?

In a match, I could't see the mark of tzeentchs tzeentch logo on them. Was is just for 1 game mistake? Did anyone else noticed that?

GREY KNIGHTS

Wow even putting Purgation into T2 wasn't a bad idea! No problem from now on.

Inteceptors : didn't used them all! Ahahahhaaa! I will try them once.

Retreat Cool Down : I think it should be 4 minutes because, in a big map, when I retreat ==> heal up==> go and find someone to punch, takes literally like 3 minutes.

[appiah4]

Gk traded all the t1 goodies for ops, so ops has to make up for the roles that were lost. We're the only race to not have suppression in t1 so we need that damage to stop melee. And if I'm bashing power, I can't be supporting my units. I don't go 2x ops because it gets redundant in T2. Their value drops off quickly.

I really have a hard time against rangers because they detect and they move with the army. Suppression is also tricky to deal against if they have detectors. Can't stay long enough even with stun to kill setups if they're focusing me down. All in all, gk T1 lost their tankiness and traded it for map control.

Bolded part is BS; The Ops have enough mobility to support and win engagements AND THEN GO AND BASH POWER, only to retreat back to base and cancel retreat midway and join the second engagement.

They are broken as fuck.

Also: Rhino. There and back again.

[DarnedDragoon]

Rangers might still need a small damage boost imo. The courage damage is nice but the main weapon still feels a little lackluster.

IG is as op as I thought it would be, which is good. Cheaper GM and Commis along with cheaper Manticores have made me a very happy man.

Rangers, with the added suppression effect, are more annoying now than they ever been. They do a lot of damage to space marines, so please don't ask for any more buffs they strong enough as is.


Also SM Predators are a glass cannon and since their movements are so wonky (constantly stopping and turning around) I think they need to be tougher. Also why do they have an armor upgrade when they are useless without it? Could not they come with the extra armor? All the experienced players know that you do not buy a predator and take it into battle without having an extra 100 requisition and 30 power in the bank to buy that extra armor ,which brings them to a total cost of. . . 550 req and 155 power. And for what, 900 health that gets chucked down easily by AV?

[Triple d]

Why is no one complaining about the interceptors? Or shouting their praises? They are without a doubt the most troll tastic thing I've ever messed with. I love the snarky bastards.

I miss having them tier 1 but damn these new versions are over the top.

Teleporting slaughter csm that can fire psycannons on demand with no cooldown and can use a bomb to blow up any vehicle they don't shoot down.

Frankly they solve the vehicle question for Grey knights that I'm not sure the previous anti vehicle squads did.

Or does. Could you imagine if warp spiders did good anti vehicle damage on top of their haywire? Oh wait I can, when that happens it means they grew some balls and started calling themselves Grey knight interceptors.

[saltychipmunk]

nah, they are good, but not fantastic. they are a t3 unit that does t2 damage which is a good trade off for their versatility. their potency i think really comes from the fact that gk legitimately had no variety in t3 and the new addition is throwing you off a bit.

besides the operatives are clearly hogging the lime light on this one

[KoolKev77]

Bolded part is BS; The Ops have enough mobility to support and win engagements AND THEN GO AND BASH POWER, only to retreat back to base and cancel retreat midway and join the second engagement.

They are broken as fuck.

Also: Rhino. There and back again.

We need the ops. We literally lost our best gen bashing unit and int in T1. In terms of control and utility, gk is pretty reliant on ops to do both unless we get grenade ist.

Our T1 tankiness is gone and suppression is gone. Meanwhile, the only unit in the Eldar t1 roster to not suppress is dire avengers. We have a lot of straight up dps, but little control or counter without ops.

[Tex]

something that needs to be reverted badly is the damage that setup teams do to buildings now.

I don't think I need to go into great detail on this, but gen bashing with a unit that can cover itself is just strait up lame.

[Atlas]

something that needs to be reverted badly is the damage that setup teams do to buildings now.

I don't think I need to go into great detail on this, but gen bashing with a unit that can cover itself is just strait up lame.

Have you seen the terror of Vengeance Round Devs on gens? Beautiful.

[Dark Riku]

@Hellstar.
You make shotgun scouts sound like they do way more damage than they actually do. They do not wipe units on their own in mere seconds, especially not in a time frame that it is impossible to react. However, If you send out units already damaged, of course it's possible for any unit to wipe them very fast.

Tip: keep an eye on the mini map, it can help you spot things without having to cycle through your units. (doesn't help vs infiltrators though )

Give it 45-49 range to match that of assault cannon or give it an ability.

Yes ..., let's make it as good as an upgrade for another walker. Kappa.

[Torpid]

something that needs to be reverted badly is the damage that setup teams do to buildings now.

I don't think I need to go into great detail on this, but gen bashing with a unit that can cover itself is just strait up lame.

It's really damn stupid.

I have no idea what is going on this patch but I don't feel like I'm playing DOW2 anymore. More like DOW3 at this stage.

[Lichtbringer]

something that needs to be reverted badly is the damage that setup teams do to buildings now.

I don't think I need to go into great detail on this, but gen bashing with a unit that can cover itself is just strait up lame.

Have you seen the terror of Vengeance Round Devs on gens? Beautiful.

I tested it, and actually from close range I think they lower the damage against gens
Without, 2 bursts. With vengeance rounds 3.^^

I always thought it was uncool and sad how little damage setup teams did against gens, but I imagined more something like they Bash with the same speed as a DA/Banshee squad or something.

[Hellstar]

@Hellstar.
You make shotgun scouts sound like they do way more damage than they actually do.

Keep in mind that I'm giving the noob/low-skill perspective here, not the perspective of someone such as yourself. For me, shotgun scouts are such a terror that I simply quit any 1v1 vs marines when I see they have deployed them. I have a noob friend who plays marines, and got his tacs destroyed by another marine player who went shotgun scouts, so all he does now is open 3 shotgun scouts and rapes face against other noobs. That wouldn't be possible if they weren't as I said.

It isn't just shotgun scouts though - there are plenty of other things which might be fine for you and other high-skill players but which are totally OP and game-breaking for low-skill players and noobs. Note that I'm not necessarily advocating a change. If the noob player base is small enough (and it probably is), the easiest thing to do is just ignore the issue. I also don't know Caeltos's philosophy on this, i.e. whether he just wants to balance for the high-skilled or whether he wants balance for all skill levels. If he wants noob balance too, I'm happy to give lots of feedback. If he doesn't, I'm cool either way.

Tip: keep an eye on the mini map

I can't really see anything on the mini-map as far as units are concerned. The unit icons or blips are too small, and there's no visual alert effect on the mini-map like there is in other games. Maybe I'm just blind?

[Swift]

Setup team damage vs generators was buffed by twenty times.

[ThaMollusk]

something that needs to be reverted badly is the damage that setup teams do to buildings now.

I don't think I need to go into great detail on this, but gen bashing with a unit that can cover itself is just strait up lame.

It's really damn stupid.

I have no idea what is going on this patch but I don't feel like I'm playing DOW2 anymore. More like DOW3 at this stage.

You don't remember genbashing with shurikens as Dow2 was shipped? Hell, couldn't you genbash with stikks? Rippers and spores popping out of tunnels; Raveners populating the top 20 almost exclusively. Game was fucking crazy.

[Caeltos]

The good ol' days. All Grenades did a respectively excellent job for genbashing as well. As much as it might have been frustrating, the games mechanic and stuff were pretty solid. Since teching had it's much lower price, the value of genbashing was abit mixed anyways. Genbashing now is abit too rewarding and punishing compared to the older days.