Hammer vs Fist against the Tyrant Guard

[Adeptus Noobus]

After watching the latest cast from Red Rupee today (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SySBQ6FNpvI) I asked myself wether the Thunderhammer would have done the same job vs the Tyrant Guard while also being the safer choice in case any Genestealers, Warrior or Venom Broods would have hit the field.

Power Fist - 170 on hit - 85 dps heavy melee (200 req / 50 pwr)
Thunderhammer - 125 on hit - 62.5 dps power melee but 1.25x vs SHI so 81.25 dps + Splash (don't know how much) (150 req / 35 pwr)

The Hammer has the benefit of also smashing anything else that is in melee with him because of the splash damage, while the Fist is one-handed and gives the FC the Plasma Pistol, which is also not bad.

What are your thoughts? Is there any reason to get the Fist vs Nids at all, if the Hammer looks this good on paper?

[hiveminion]

Against TG Fist is obviously better, the clincher is being able to take it out when it's in shieldwall.

Against Nids in general though nothing beats teleporting TH FC, counters the Termagant blob that would otherwise cripple him, can wipe the Doom with battlecry, and levels him up like crazy. You can always swap out for the Fist in T3 when Gaunts are no longer a problem and the Fexes are rolling out.

[Torpid]

There is currently no reason to go power fist over TH at high level (aka where people bother to micro tanks/transports and use suppression properly) in any MU other than SM mirrors.

[Cyris]

There is currently no reason to go power fist over TH at high level (aka where people bother to micro tanks/transports and use suppression properly) in any MU other than SM mirrors.

Would you care to elaborate on this? It's always helpful to dig deeper, and I'd personally like to hear more.

Main points seem to be:
Are you implying PF is not viable against tank/transport play?
What is proper suppression usage vs FC? What about when he gets ASM and teleporter?
Why does PF work in SM mirror?
What AV options do you recommend against a TG as FC?

Thanks!

[Torpid]

Would you care to elaborate on this? It's always helpful to dig deeper, and I'd personally like to hear more.

Main points seem to be:
Are you implying PF is not viable against tank/transport play?
What is proper suppression usage vs FC? What about when he gets ASM and teleporter?
Why does PF work in SM mirror?
What AV options do you recommend against a TG as FC?

Thanks!

Obviously the point I raise before is only true under the caveat of "assuming your foe goes for a somewhat near-optimal build". And because of how long the game has been going on... near-optimal = near-conventional in most cases.

But to expand further on that point. Yes, I am implying PF play is not viable against tanks/transports at high level. I don't recall the last time an FC got off two swings in one engagement with it vs my

Layered, behind lots of ordinary ranged fire from non SUTs and with something to counter-initiate, usually melee, but also stuff like fire dragons/shotgun scouts. FC teleports into the tank/transport, FC gets killed very fast and is suppress immediately making him lucky to get off 1hit nevermind more and certainly not a flesh over steel but even if he does he himself isn't doing any damage since he dies in seconds without the halo.

ASM and the FC? Let the FC jump my SUT! With the power fist he's not going to knock over every single model so he's gonna have to go chasing it and while that happens he's gonna get shot up by my tank/transport and ranged stuff, not to mention meleed since with the power fist his special attacks are pretty darn dreadful (the power sword is better vs melee).

Due to the way tanks/transports are meant to be used alongside SUTs and ranged squads compositionally the FC/ASM are ging in before their jumps with less than full hp. So they can't lurk around for long and that leads to dead stuff. Still, vs SM I wouldn't really go for a tank anyway, it's a little bit redundant. They have such amazing AV as it is. All those snares and the libby and ewww.

Whatever, the power fist is not the reason why I don't go tanks vs SM. Melta bombs, missle tacs, las-devs and the libby as well as their own awesome preds and melta dreads are :L FC is nothing. So easy to control.

In SM mirrors dread spams are just uber whether you do a sniper t1 or an asm t1 since both snipers and asm beat las-devs and missle tacs. A power fist is very good defensively vs vehicles due to flesh over steel. It lets you insta-counter enemy walkers that wade into your forces with a las-dev set-up deep at the back. While your own dread AND the FC can wail on it.

A libby as a first purchase vs nids is rarely a bad idea. Then an additional devastator for every TG that is fielded, upgraded with a lascannon. Wittle it down with plasma tacs/TH FC/the libby/vengeance round devs and the las-cannon but leave the lascannon to finish it off. The las-cannons and the libby scale fantastically vs the nid T3 and the TH FC can deal with genes fantastically which are one of the best counters to SM libby plays due to their speed. After you have sufficient SUTs and a libby spam dreads. No need to ever go T3 vs nids. Libby+SUT spam+TH FC+dreads >>> Any nid composition fathomable. VoT TH FC with FTE on him and teleporter pack kills zoanthropes in 2hits on retreat up to and including lv3 zoans. Give him alacrity to make him really really crush zoans. Sure, the power fist does that too (and to lv4 zoans in fact), but with the TH FC you can turn around and wreck all his gaunts after you kill the zoan and you have that safety net vs genes

[Cyris]

Thanks for the writeup! Have had some bad experiences with TG lately, so gonna try some of this out.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Thank you all for your opinions and thoughts on this. I have to completely agree with Torpid on his analysis concerning SM vs Nids. I see no point to ever get the Fist vs Nids as the TH gives you the Anti-TG potential plus so much more vs the rest of the Nids roster. The Libby is also a very strong choice vs Nids because of VoT but also GoI and Smite. Really helps keep the swarm in check.

The Fist imo seems viable if you go up against single entities or low unit count squads.

[Toilailee]

Why would you not get fist + tele vs some1 who has a transport/tank when FoS tracks? Free trololo vehicle kills for the whole family.

[Torpid]

Why would you not get fist + tele vs some1 who has a transport/tank when FoS tracks? Free trololo vehicle kills for the whole family.

Because it costs 90 power and is terrible vs melee which is kind of what the FC is amazing at dealing with and quite a glaring weakness of SM come T2?

It really isn't that good vs transports/tanks. If they are supported with a melee squad or a SUT it will not work.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Why would you not get fist + tele vs some1 who has a transport/tank when FoS tracks? Free trololo vehicle kills for the whole family.

Since the radius of FoS got nerfed it has become quite difficult to succesfully land it. As Torpid says, if your enemy is watching for that teleport, he simply has react to it and you have just wasted a teleport, your FC must haul back to base or even worse dies in vain (and we know what the Emperor thinks of needless death). It has become more of a walker counter really imo.

[Toilailee]

Why would you not get fist + tele vs some1 who has a transport/tank when FoS tracks? Free trololo vehicle kills for the whole family.

Since the radius of FoS got nerfed it has become quite difficult to succesfully land it.

Good. Frankly that was always the only thing that kept this ability from being completely broken.

[Codex]

Flesh over steel used to be completely broken, in more than one way, which made it an interesting lesson in game design- the ability when it landed, was far far far too strong. However, the counterpoint is that the ability was so incredibly unreliable to land, such that kiting of any kind was enough to disjoint the animation... arguably the ability was "balanced", but in such a way that it was a joke in terms of game design.