2.4 Balance Feedback

[appiah4]

paladins are fine guys just focus fire them

and ofc satchel charge wiping gens is okay, you can satchel charge your own gens...

You can't focusfire something that can teleport into your blob, is immune to suppression, can shockwave insta gib full health squads, and then retreat when goings get tough with ranged damage reduction..

Oh, and they also have a gazillion HPs to begin with.

They are a one man army. They do everything Nobs and Terminators do, all in one, only better.

[Atlas]

You can't focusfire something that can teleport into your blob, is immune to suppression, can shockwave insta gib full health squads, and then retreat when goings get tough with ranged damage reduction..

Oh, and they also have a gazillion HPs to begin with.

They are a one man army. They do everything Nobs and Terminators do, all in one, only better.

So wait, are you really saying that a whole army's dps can't drop 1 paladin model? I think we can agree that they're tough but they aren't invincible right?

[Paradise Lost]

Just wondering, from what I've seen and read, does anyone feel that until the dreadknight becomes operational, paladins are right now the super unit for gk? They basically act as an avatar that's squishier, has no aura that affects allies (an ability, but not an aura), do more damage if they all hit on the same target, have one of the same abilities (similar if we go by all the rage on it), and can retreat. People are up about them because they're termies that are too all-rounded, but if you think of them as a super unit (as they act as one with how critical they are to the army comp if the player even goes t3) then they fit in just fine. Should the dk ever make an appearance then things might be too over-performing, but until then I see things as alright provided a few numbers are tweaked.

Still broken, super-units don't retreat.

[Forestradio]

paladins are fine guys just focus fire them

and ofc satchel charge wiping gens is okay, you can satchel charge your own gens...

You can't focusfire something that can teleport into your blob, is immune to suppression, can shockwave insta gib full health squads, and then retreat when goings get tough with ranged damage reduction..

Oh, and they also have a gazillion HPs to begin with.

They are a one man army. They do everything Nobs and Terminators do, all in one, only better.

[insert OP unit] is fine just focus fire it...
LA is fine just focus fire it

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Just wondering, from what I've seen and read, does anyone feel that until the dreadknight becomes operational, paladins are right now the super unit for gk? They basically act as an avatar that's squishier, has no aura that affects allies (an ability, but not an aura), do more damage if they all hit on the same target, have one of the same abilities (similar if we go by all the rage on it), and can retreat. People are up about them because they're termies that are too all-rounded, but if you think of them as a super unit (as they act as one with how critical they are to the army comp if the player even goes t3) then they fit in just fine. Should the dk ever make an appearance then things might be too over-performing, but until then I see things as alright provided a few numbers are tweaked.

Still broken, super-units don't retreat.

That'd go under "numbers are tweaked". Personally the retreat itself isn't that much of a problem for a super-unit stand-in, it's the bonuses that come with it. A speed buff that slowly increases movement speed to unit's max, 80% ranged damage resist, and 30% melee damage vulnerability increase. Since grey knight terminators in particular have so much health, just drastically shrink the ranged damage resist or get rid of it altogether for them specifically, or drastically increase their melee vulnerability. If say paladins are suck in melee with a power or heavy melee squad, once the retreat is given they could take more damage in the initial few seconds of movement than the entire engagement if they take like double melee damage on retreat, especially if there are lightning claws involved. Another example is with the other idea. Say normal terminators are getting melted by focus fire of AV/inferno/plasma. If you take away the ranged resist, all the terminators really get is a speed buff on a one-way trip to base.

A third idea I just thought up while typing this, is to make the terminator variants give surrounding allied units a huge demoralization debuff and a huge inspiration buff for enemies whenever they retreat in a large area, which would basically swing the tide in the enemies' favor.

[Hellstar]

So wait, are you really saying that a whole army's dps can't drop 1 paladin model? I think we can agree that they're tough but they aren't invincible right?

Agreed. Made paladins in a game yesterday. Used them to teleport onto an IG chimera and beat away at it while his IG units in the area focused my paladins. He didn't have THAT many units firing away (at least not a full army's worth) but by the time I killed the chimera and retreated I lost 1 paladin model.

My only point here is "not invincible."

[Paradise Lost]

Just wondering, from what I've seen and read, does anyone feel that until the dreadknight becomes operational, paladins are right now the super unit for gk? They basically act as an avatar that's squishier, has no aura that affects allies (an ability, but not an aura), do more damage if they all hit on the same target, have one of the same abilities (similar if we go by all the rage on it), and can retreat. People are up about them because they're termies that are too all-rounded, but if you think of them as a super unit (as they act as one with how critical they are to the army comp if the player even goes t3) then they fit in just fine. Should the dk ever make an appearance then things might be too over-performing, but until then I see things as alright provided a few numbers are tweaked.

Still broken, super-units don't retreat.

That'd go under "numbers are tweaked". Personally the retreat itself isn't that much of a problem for a super-unit stand-in, it's the bonuses that come with it. A speed buff that slowly increases movement speed to unit's max, 80% ranged damage resist, and 30% melee damage vulnerability increase. Since grey knight terminators in particular have so much health, just drastically shrink the ranged damage resist or get rid of it altogether for them specifically, or drastically increase their melee vulnerability. If say paladins are suck in melee with a power or heavy melee squad, once the retreat is given they could take more damage in the initial few seconds of movement than the entire engagement if they take like double melee damage on retreat, especially if there are lightning claws involved. Another example is with the other idea. Say normal terminators are getting melted by focus fire of AV/inferno/plasma. If you take away the ranged resist, all the terminators really get is a speed buff on a one-way trip to base.

A third idea I just thought up while typing this, is to make the terminator variants give surrounding allied units a huge demoralization debuff and a huge inspiration buff for enemies whenever they retreat in a large area, which would basically swing the tide in the enemies' favor.

No, they were fine before. I say remove the changes altogether.

[Atlas]

So wait, are you really saying that a whole army's dps can't drop 1 paladin model? I think we can agree that they're tough but they aren't invincible right?

Agreed. Made paladins in a game yesterday. Used them to teleport onto an IG chimera and beat away at it while his IG units in the area focused my paladins. He didn't have THAT many units firing away (at least not a full army's worth) but by the time I killed the chimera and retreated I lost 1 paladin model.

My only point here is "not invincible."

Well maybe if that IG player focus fire'd a FULL army's worth he would have forced off your paladins way faster.

[appiah4]

So wait, are you really saying that a whole army's dps can't drop 1 paladin model? I think we can agree that they're tough but they aren't invincible right?

Agreed. Made paladins in a game yesterday. Used them to teleport onto an IG chimera and beat away at it while his IG units in the area focused my paladins. He didn't have THAT many units firing away (at least not a full army's worth) but by the time I killed the chimera and retreated I lost 1 paladin model.

My only point here is "not invincible."

Well maybe if that IG player focus fire'd a FULL army's worth he would have forced off your paladins way faster.

He would've more likely gotten wiped by the rest of the GK army. Losing 1 Paladin to safely and reliably take out a reinforcing enemy transport unit? Priceless. By the time those Paladins have retreated back to base the rest of the GK army will have forced off the whole IG army which can no longer reinforce on the field at this point. However you cut it, Paladins are broken as FUCK. The whole retreating thing just came out of the blue, has no sense or place in DOW2 and completely broke the mod.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Oh I see, as soon as Cheekie Monkey says making infiltration locked behind fallback plan is a good idea everyone loves it.

Doesn't matter that Swift said it first.
In all seriousness i cri evrtyme.

Scrubsabre strikes again

Fallback plan still offers amazing utility since IIRC they don't reduce outgoing ranged damage. This is crucial in allowing your ISTs and strikes to win firefights that they would have otherwise lost e.g double shootas and plasma tacs.

[Hellstar]

Losing 1 Paladin to safely and reliably take out a reinforcing enemy transport unit? Priceless... However you cut it, Paladins are broken as FUCK.

Let me say this first: I'm the last person who knows what the overall philosophy of this mod is, the balance philosophy of this mod, etc. Also, I haven't played this mod long enough to know definitively what feels balanced, what feels broken, etc. So take anything I say or suggest with a grain of salt, if not a truckload.

Having said that, going by what I know of balance of every other game I've played (quite a lot), it certainly doesn't intuitively strike me as "broken as FUCK" that something like a paladin could teleport into an engagement and take out a wartrukk before getting out, losing a model in the process (note that taking out the wartrukk wasn't a foregone conclusion - the enemy player could have driven it out of the engagement had he played better). Lots of other things in the game could have taken out the wartruck as quick or quicker, taking as little damage as the paladins or even less. What about a baneblade for instance, or an avatar? What about a couple of beamy deffguns or brightlances? What about some warpspiders with haywires or assault marines with meltas? I'm sure the spiders or assault marines would have taken much more damage, potentially even getting squad-wiped, but on the other hand they cost much less, are a lower tier, and it might have been worth the trade anyway.

I'm open to being convinced. So convince me. Tell me why the paladin example is so automatically and obviously out of line? Again, I'm not claiming I'm definitively correct about anything, these are just my thoughts.

[hiveminion]

So wait, are you really saying that a whole army's dps can't drop 1 paladin model? I think we can agree that they're tough but they aren't invincible right?

Since they can retreat when they get low on HP, I've rarely seen Paladins drop a model. And this is after teleporting into one/two armies' worth of fire. I'm pretty sure examples of this are already present in recent Indrid/Rupee casts.

Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZqapoRZ_9E (19:30)

[egewithin]

Well, if you can't even drop one model of Paladins, how are you going to kill all tree of them without their retreat?

[appiah4]

Losing 1 Paladin to safely and reliably take out a reinforcing enemy transport unit? Priceless... However you cut it, Paladins are broken as FUCK.

Let me say this first: I'm the last person who knows what the overall philosophy of this mod is, the balance philosophy of this mod, etc. Also, I haven't played this mod long enough to know definitively what feels balanced, what feels broken, etc. So take anything I say or suggest with a grain of salt, if not a truckload.

Having said that, going by what I know of balance of every other game I've played (quite a lot), it certainly doesn't intuitively strike me as "broken as FUCK" that something like a paladin could teleport into an engagement and take out a wartrukk before getting out, losing a model in the process (note that taking out the wartrukk wasn't a foregone conclusion - the enemy player could have driven it out of the engagement had he played better). Lots of other things in the game could have taken out the wartruck as quick or quicker, taking as little damage as the paladins or even less. What about a baneblade for instance, or an avatar? What about a couple of beamy deffguns or brightlances? What about some warpspiders with haywires or assault marines with meltas? I'm sure the spiders or assault marines would have taken much more damage, potentially even getting squad-wiped, but on the other hand they cost much less, are a lower tier, and it might have been worth the trade anyway.

I'm open to being convinced. So convince me. Tell me why the paladin example is so automatically and obviously out of line? Again, I'm not claiming I'm definitively correct about anything, these are just my thoughts.

What about a Baneblade for instance. Well, the Baneblade costs significantly more time and resources as well as popcap (I believe), is much slower, can be snared, is incredibly well countered with melee, does not regenerate and can not retreat. Paladins have none of these disadvantages.
What about a setup team? They have setup time, they are extremely well countered by artillery, disruption, melee, grenades and ranged fire - all of which does jackshit to Paladins.
Warpspiders: Comparing warpspider durability to Paladins? And what AV do WS have except haywire grenades, which are a countdown ability that doesn't do barely enough damage to halve the HPs of even transports? Good luck taking a transport out with a WS squad. They can actually be focus fired down.
Assault Marines with Meltabombs: Same situation as above.

Look, Paladins:

• Have SHI
• Have huge HP per model
• Have gread Heavy Melee damage against everything
• Have shockwave cooldown ability with great AOE damage
• Can teleport into blobs or behind AV
• Are very difficult to bleed
• Come onto the field relatively faster and for cheaper than most Super units
• Can retreat with ranged damage reduction

They are Nobs, Terminators and Avatar combined into a single unit.

This is the same problem with Operatives who are pretty much the best upsides of all T1 units (Great ranged DPS, mobility, infiltration, grenade with ridiculous damage vs generators, cancel retreat - they just lack HI armor and detector, which we may as well grant them at this point) combined into a single unit.

This mod started out by removing these kinds of obscenities from other factions. Wasn't the whole point of IG spotters making Catachans less of a go-to choice that does everything? Wasn't that the point of nerfing Bloodletters to power melee and introducing Raptors? Now the mod's lovechild faction has two swiss knife units that do EVERYTHING, and BETTER than ANYONE ELSE.

We can just rename the mod to Grey Knights OP mod and be done with it or just face the fact, realize that someone done fucked it up and fix it.

[appiah4]

Well, if you can't even drop one model of Paladins, how are you going to kill all tree of them without their retreat?

You do realize that if they didn't retreat when at low HP they WOULD lose models right? It's the same thing with Terminators, it's when they start to retreat that they often lose models. And THAT is what usually balances them out.

[egewithin]

You do realize that if they didn't retreat when at low HP they WOULD lose models right? It's the same thing with Terminators, it's when they start to retreat that they often lose models. And THAT is what usually balances them out.

It seems like dropping models is depending on a bit of luck eather. You are right about how ridiculus that shockwave is but I belive that; if we can nerf it enough, it can became balanced. But : I do not care too much about their overpowerness because if I pay over 150 power ( I said over because of wargears), I have to see some stuff, come on! Now I made some calculation and see that a fully upgraded Palanid squad costs 840 req and 200 powaa As you can see, they are more expensive than Avatar, Nobz and Assault Terminators. If they do not hurt balance too much, they are okay. Yes, they will hurt the balance a little bit. Imagine like you bought an Avatar and march through the enemy lines, isn't that a turn around for your team? Yes it is. Think Paladins as somethink like that. Because they are Paladins. Wow they are amazing btw.

Also, remember that GK T3 depends on Terminator eather. You know, I can not defeat a swarm of Tyranids with teleporting Purgation squad (Inteceptors). So Terminators ofcource going to be strong. They are all you have at that point. And please don't tell me that I have a Land Raider. In that case, you have to buy Land Raider in every match you have. Do you get it? No. Sooooooooooooo, no problem! For the sustainability of GH T3, they have to have a retreat ability. You know, you can keep fighing without Terminators if you play Space Marines and Chaos. But you can't do this if you play GK.

EDIT : I belive that, as I said under another topic ; if we can make the retreat costs energy, they can not teleport and retreat if things goes bad. I still suggest that idea.

[appiah4]

You do realize that if they didn't retreat when at low HP they WOULD lose models right? It's the same thing with Terminators, it's when they start to retreat that they often lose models. And THAT is what usually balances them out.

It seems like dropping models is depending on a bit of luck eather. You are right about how ridiculus that shockwave is but I belive that; if we can nerf it enough, it can became balanced. But : I do not care too much about their overpowerness because if I pay over 150 power ( I said over because of wargears), I have to see some stuff, come on! Now I made some calculation and see that a fully upgraded Palanid squad costs 840 req and 200 powaa As you can see, they are more expensive than Avatar, Nobz and Assault Terminators. If they do not hurt balance too much, they are okay. Yes, they will hurt the balance a little bit. Imagine like you bought an Avatar and march through the enemy lines, isn't that a turn around for your team? Yes it is. Think Paladins as somethink like that. Because they are Paladins. Wow they are amazing btw.

Also, remember that GK T3 depends on Terminator eather. You know, I can not defeat a swarm of Tyranids with teleporting Purgation squad (Inteceptors). So Terminators ofcource going to be strong. They are all you have at that point. And please don't tell me that I have a Land Raider. In that case, you have to buy Land Raider in every match you have. Do you get it? No. Sooooooooooooo, no problem! For the sustainability of GH T3, they have to have a retreat ability. You know, you can keep fighing without Terminators if you play Space Marines and Chaos. But you can't do this if you play GK.

I completely disagree with most of this but the bolded part especially threw me off - can you elaborate? How is losing Terminators worse for GK than it is to SM?

[egewithin]

I completely disagree with most of this but the bolded part especially threw me off - can you elaborate? How is losing Terminators worse for GK than it is to SM?

What if you loose your Paladins. How will you react? Are you going to wait untill you have another 150 power and lots of req? Ahahahah please my dear friend! Ignore last thing I said. However, you react with Chaos for example; your Predators provides you a lot of ranged fire support. You can wait untill you have a GUO or a Phobos, if you are able to buy another Paladin in this game, these are possible. If you are SM, you can react with a Predator eather. Or you can drop a Verenable if you play Techmarine, you can go with Termie FC if you want or a quick Vanguard and yes, quick Vanguard can work real good but no guarantee for it just like no guarantee for your Termies eather.

[appiah4]

My bad. I forgot that the only units in the GK roster beyond T1 were Paladins so if you lose them you either wait to replace thrm or concede......

[saltychipmunk]

I never quite got why the gk terminators did not cost any red while still costing about the same as sm or chaos terminators in req/ power and having special ability upgrades .

Why do chaos and sm get to buy landraiders while gk landraiders cost red? It seems that the general thrust of your question is "why aren't all factions the same?" Different factions are different.

.

that's a rather bland excuse to justify a balance issue. like it or not red is an effective method of limiting the ability to create a unit just as much as requisition , power, pop and unit cap are.

350 red is decent enough for one terminator . but you need to do pretty darn well to get 700 for a second one to get the termy spam gravy train going for either chaos or sm. not to mention it means you need to save your red and not spend it on other things. that combined with the long ass cool down on the call in is what keeps termy spam for those races managable.

simply having a 60 second build time achieves barely anything. especially when the terminators in-question are decidedly better than the ones that sm or chaos get. the call in on the field while novel is only impactful for a single battle . its loss is easily mitigated when you can skip t2 as gk barely having 200 red in pocket and go straight into 2 squads of super , suppression immune heavy infantry. This was a major issue even in the last patch when even a total garbage gk player could completely fuck up his mid game , lose half his army , but be ok because he could just coast on into t3 and spam the gravy train. (i am aware this is a team game issue , rather than a 1v1 issue) .

and neither sm termis or chaos termis get battle changing abilities as upgrades either.


plus the gk land raider is kind of shit. (easily the weakest land raider)... so most just skip it ... and miss exactly nothing about it.


In the end i still think gk need more variety in t3 and i think the terminator spam needs to be reigned in.

[Hellstar]

Look, Paladins:

• Have SHI
• Have huge HP per model
• Have gread Heavy Melee damage against everything
• Have shockwave cooldown ability with great AOE damage
• Can teleport into blobs or behind AV
• Are very difficult to bleed
• Come onto the field relatively faster and for cheaper than most Super units
• Can retreat with ranged damage reduction

SHI - don't know what that is.

Huge HP per model - so what? So do terminators. Let's see. T1 units - small HP/model, small powerful. T2 units - medium HP/model, medium powerful. T3 units, including superunits - big HP/model, largely powerful. Hmmm, I see a trend here.

They are Nobs, Terminators and Avatar combined into a single unit.

I think you can just say they are enhanced or modified terminators.

This is the same problem with Operatives who are pretty much the best upsides of all T1 units (Great ranged DPS, mobility, infiltration, grenade with ridiculous damage vs generators, cancel retreat - they just lack HI armor and detector, which we may as well grant them at this point) combined into a single unit.

If they are that strong, any competent player should be able to win every game unless the opposing player also plays GK, right? Why didn't GK win the last tournament a few days ago? I mean, between Operatives and Paladins, this has got to be the most OP faction in the history of RTS. Why didn't Adila and his partner win? Why didn't they just rape face all over the place? Hell, why didn't other players who wanted to win play GK?

I remain totally unconvinced.

You've engaged in a lot of hyperbole. It's a sign of something. I'd like to know what your biases are, if you don't mind sharing them. I've seen a strain of RTS player in other games with a strong dislike of higher tier units, who thinks that games should basically be played with nothing but low tier units. They tend to think that high tier units should simply be there "for the lolz," and should essentially be nerfed out of the game except if you want to build one "for fun" or to troll your opponent or whatever. You see these types all over the place. For instance in CoH2 they recently successfully got artificial limits placed on "heavies" (now only 1 tiger, king tiger, etc. allowed per player). I could list many other examples. Are you one of these types?

Or perhaps you just hate GK? Or perhaps you have a favorite faction that didn't get as much love as the GK and eldar, so you're pissed? What is it?

[Vapor]

If they are that strong, any competent player should be able to win every game unless the opposing player also plays GK, right? Why didn't GK win the last tournament a few days ago? I mean, between Operatives and Paladins, this has got to be the most OP faction in the history of RTS. Why didn't Adila and his partner win? Why didn't they just rape face all over the place? Hell, why didn't other players who wanted to win play GK?

I remain totally unconvinced.

You've engaged in a lot of hyperbole. It's a sign of something. I'd like to know what your biases are, if you don't mind sharing them. I've seen a strain of RTS player in other games with a strong dislike of higher tier units, who thinks that games should basically be played with nothing but low tier units. They tend to think that high tier units should simply be there "for the lolz," and should essentially be nerfed out of the game except if you want to build one "for fun" or to troll your opponent or whatever. You see these types all over the place. For instance in CoH2 they recently successfully got artificial limits placed on "heavies" (now only 1 tiger, king tiger, etc. allowed per player). I could list many other examples. Are you one of these types?

Or perhaps you just hate GK? Or perhaps you have a favorite faction that didn't get as much love as the GK and eldar, so you're pissed? What is it?

because one GK player's inability to win a tournament finals indicates that the race isn't OP? Not sure what you're getting at there. I probably would have lost too regardless of which race I picked

the closest thing to GK terminators/palas are the SM/Chaos terminators, which (a) cost red, and (b) can't retreat

[Hellstar]

especially when the terminators in-question are decidedly better than the ones that sm or chaos get.

"Decidedly better?" Can you prove that statement? You got any numbers to back that up?

Not that it would necessarily be an issue. IG gets the best vehicles. Other factions get the best other things. I don't necessarily have a problem with GK getting the best terminators. But again, can you prove it?

i think the terminator spam needs to be reigned in.

"Terminator spam???" HA HA HA HA! I've heard it all! Now the game is infested with GK "terminator spam!"

Man, the hyperbole and hysterics in this thread have gone over the roof.

[Hellstar]

because one GK player's inability to win a tournament finals indicates that the race isn't OP?

Sure, I think that's completely reasonable. What... you think their inability to win a tournament indicates that the race *is* OP?

At some point, the people claiming that a race is absurdly OP have to prove their claims. I mean, this has to be the most OP race in the history of RTS gaming, right? And as such, I'd expect to see players winning tournaments with them left and right. If they can't, well... ???

Can you think of a better way of proving OP-ness?

[Vapor]

especially when the terminators in-question are decidedly better than the ones that sm or chaos get.

"Decidedly better?" Can you prove that statement? You got any numbers to back that up?

you can't "prove" these things, the game is way too complicated and there are way too many variables for someone to just plug stats into a formula to "prove" unit A is better than unit B. That doesn't mean there isn't a right or wrong answer, it's just that balance is a murky issue and the only way to get a good sense of what's going on is by extensively playing the game at a high level. Really the balance forums are only useful for collecting balance opinions that have already been formed in-game, and knowledge transfer i.e. showing other players builds, tactics, etc. that they hadn't tried before which may lead to a change in opinion

[Vapor]

because one GK player's inability to win a tournament finals indicates that the race isn't OP?

Sure, I think that's completely reasonable. What... you think their inability to win a tournament indicates that the race *is* OP?

At some point, the people claiming that a race is absurdly OP have to prove their claims. I mean, this has to be the most OP race in the history of RTS gaming, right? And as such, I'd expect to see players winning tournaments with them left and right. If they can't, well... ???

Can you think of a better way of proving OP-ness?

This game doesn't have a large, serious competitive community so it is a bit ridiculous to expect tournaments to indicate balance. There is no way to prove OP-ness tbh. A replay where a unit clearly overperforms is probably the closest thing but really we just have to hope that Caeltos makes the right decisions going forward based on his game sense

[Hellstar]

especially when the terminators in-question are decidedly better than the ones that sm or chaos get.

"Decidedly better?" Can you prove that statement? You got any numbers to back that up?

you can't "prove" these things, the game is way too complicated and there are way too many variables for someone to just plug stats into a formula to "prove" unit A is better than unit B.

So you are comfortable with someone saying X is "decidedly better" than Y without having to back it up in any way?

This game doesn't have a large, serious competitive community so it is a bit ridiculous to expect tournaments to indicate balance. There is no way to prove OP-ness

So we have claims of OP-ness, with no ability to prove whatsoever. And it's a "bit ridiculous" to expect some kind of proof to be forthcoming.

Okay... whatever man.

[hiveminion]

So we have claims of OP-ness, with no ability to prove whatsoever. And it's a "bit ridiculous" to expect some kind of proof to be forthcoming.

Okay... whatever man.

Plenty of arguments have been raised to support the notion that Paladins are overperforming. You have raised approximately no serious arguments against it. In fact, you seem to be the only person in this thread arguing that Paladins are not OP. Maybe it's time to lay your case to rest, or create a specific thread on the issue.

[saltychipmunk]

especially when the terminators in-question are decidedly better than the ones that sm or chaos get.

"Decidedly better?" Can you prove that statement? You got any numbers to back that up?

do i even need too? the very fact that the gk terminators are being mentioned this much while i see barely a fart about the other terminators should really tell even the casual listener that maybe .. just maybe the gk terminators are performing better than the other terminators.

i said better i didn't say way better , just better. settle down.

So we have claims of OP-ness, with no ability to prove whatsoever. And it's a "bit ridiculous" to expect some kind of proof to be forthcoming.

Okay... whatever man.

.

did you only read the first sentence of my post? i quite clearly gave a very good example of why gk terminators have a leg up over the other terminators.

or is red independence
call in cooldown independence
being good at the game independence

not good enough? if it isn't well that is of course your opinion and you can say so. but don't go around claiming that i have no argument when its literally a quarter inch lower on your screen.

accessibility is a very strong reason why the gk terminators are better than the other terminators. even if they were less competent in other areas like damage abilities and durability , which i can assure you they are not lacking in those areas.

[Torpid]

They're not just better. They're fucking leagues better.

THEY CAN RETREAT. That's gigantic. It would be like if one could level and the other couldn't... In fact it is way more useful than that on squad that can kill tanks in moments and has a teleport.

They have superior ranged weapons than dedicated ranger terminators despite being melee terminator variants. Herp-derp. Combine that with a melee charge and you've got quite a ridiculous unit.

Then they have shock-wave which is quite obviously bugged atm so to speak - its damage is over 100, not the intended 30 and so there has been a clear implementation issue. Currently that ability makes them far more of a threat than an avatar is even...

The notion of "can you prove it" is so stupid. What does proof mean? We can't "prove" that the sun will rise tomorrow, doesn't mean we should act like it won't, does it?