2.4 Balance Feedback

[Swift]

[EDIT]: That was venemous and rash, I shan't post comments as rude as that.

In other words, Hellstar you are arguing with moire experienced players, see their arguments and then try this out for yourself.

[Adeptus Noobus]

They're not just better. They're fucking leagues better.

THEY CAN RETREAT. That's gigantic. It would be like if one could level and the other couldn't... In fact it is way more useful than that on squad that can kill tanks in moments and has a teleport.

They have superior ranged weapons than dedicated ranger terminators despite being melee terminator variants. Herp-derp. Combine that with a melee charge and you've got quite a ridiculous unit.

Then they have shock-wave which is quite obviously bugged atm so to speak - its damage is over 100, not the intended 30 and so there has been a clear implementation issue. Currently that ability makes them far more of a threat than an avatar is even...

The notion of "can you prove it" is so stupid. What does proof mean? We can't "prove" that the sun will rise tomorrow, doesn't mean we should act like it won't, does it?

Really all that needs to be said about the new Paladins/Terminators. The retreat would not hurt so much, IF the healthpool weren't that high. I know the last cast from Indrid is in no way a good indicator for how well GK perform in general but of the performance of Paladins. Just look to what Zeetorq had to resort to and still could not kill the Paladins from Maru. They may loose a model but what do they care. Now look at what investment Zeetorq had to reach that kind of "damage potential" - 4 TCSM with Eternal War - 1940/180.

[Forestradio]

would you like to play a game Hellstar?

my Grey Knights vs a faction of your choice?

[Hellstar]

You have raised approximately no serious arguments against it.

I'm not the one who has to make arguments against it. The person who makes claims has to make arguments supporting claims. The person not making claims doesn't have to do anything except look at the evidence, facts, proof, arguments, etc. if any are forthcoming.

In fact, you seem to be the only person in this thread arguing that Paladins are not OP.

It seems I spend most of my time correcting what others think they read, or what others think I said.

I am not arguing that paladins are not OP. Why? Because I don't know if they are. I'm arguing thought process here. I'm pleading for rationality in thought and action. If someone makes over the top, outrageous claims about something, then the truth of those claims better be obvious and better hit me in the face. If they don't, then I ask to see the arguments, the reasons, the rationale, the data, the evidence, the facts, etc. I did that here, and nothing was forthcoming.

If someone runs screaming down the street saying there's a monster approaching and we're all gonna die, I look over my shoulder expecting to see Godzilla cresting the horizon. When I don't see that... it doesn't mean there isn't a monster somewhere out there, but if it doesn't jump out at me upon some preliminary investigation, I'm gonna wait until some reason to believe it before acting on the information.

The more outrageous, over-the-top, and hysterical the claim, the more there needs to be something to back it up.

I've been told in this thread that we are now infested with gk "terminator spam." But I haven't seen any, and I play for hours every day. I probably played 15 hours yesterday, didn't see a single instance of gk "terminator spam" (n fact didn't see a single one built). I also watched the monthly tournament a few days ago, and I didn't see any gk "terminator spam" from crewfinity. So I have a wild claim, but can't verify a shred of it to save my life.

Then I'm told that paladins are so monstrously OP that they are nobs, terminators, and avatars all rolled into one. It's like the most OP unit ever created or conceived of. Again, I play every day and see no evidence of it. And again, I watched the last monthly tournament. Crewfinity got out a paladin in one particular game. Well, they lost that game. You'd think that if Paladins were as monstrously OP as claimed, they would have been an "I win" button, right? Well, they weren't.

I can go through the same exercise with operatives, and list the over-the-top claims of monstrous OP'ness, the sky is falling, etc. But I won't - you should have gotten the picture by now.

To close, no, I have not argued that paladins are not OP (nor operatives for that matter). But I have raised eyebrows at wild, radical, hysterical, over-the-top, hyperbolic claims, and have expected to see some sort of evidence to back up such claims. I've seen nothing.

[Hellstar]

In other words, Hellstar you are arguing with moire experienced players, see their arguments and then try this out for yourself.

I'm not arguing with expert players on their expert domain - I'm not stupid enough to do that, and would have no reason to do it. But I am arguing thought process. I can do that with anyone, and I can do it with the best of them.

Also, look specifically at what I have taken issue with. It's things like GK being so out-of-whack that we are now infested with unstoppable "terminator spam." It's things like Paladins being so monstrously OP that they are "I win" buttons.

I've stated several times in this thread (go find the quotes) that I'm not against adjustment being made to units (including paladins/operatives), and that if adjustments need to be made, by all means do it. What I am against is action being taken due to wild, exaggerated, over-the-top hyperbolic claims.

[Torpid]

I've seen nothing.

He has seen nothing.

The man is blind. D:

[Vapor]

Lol what evidence do you want to see? there is literally nothing that could be said or shown that would prove any claim of the sort "unit x is op/up." Faction wars? Of course not. Tournament stats? Slightly better but still basically useless. So what do you propose? I guarantee you that anything you suggest will be worse than the current approach of Caeltos listening to feedback from good players. In the end you just have to trust that experienced players are being honest about their experiences and even that is shaky.

Also no one literally thinks Paladins are an I win button lol

[Hellstar]

Also no one literally thinks Paladins are an I win button lol

If they are nobs, avatars, and terminators all rolled into one, and if they are part of the great GK "terminator spam" we are apparently infested with, that sure sounds like an "I win" button to me.

[Vapor]

hyperbole

and it is a fact that gk terminators are more spammable than other terminators because there is no cooldown or red cost

[Aguxyz]

Nobs are doodoo

[Crewfinity]

If they are that strong, any competent player should be able to win every game unless the opposing player also plays GK, right? Why didn't GK win the last tournament a few days ago? I mean, between Operatives and Paladins, this has got to be the most OP faction in the history of RTS. Why didn't Adila and his partner win? Why didn't they just rape face all over the place? Hell, why didn't other players who wanted to win play GK?

I remain totally unconvinced.

[/quote]

As adilas partner in that tournament, I played GK exclusively, as I more or less have been doing since 2.3.1

Paladins are batshit crazy OP right now. Ops play into terminator spam was able to win us a lot of games we really shouldn't have. I don't think I'm a bad player, but I definitely did better in that tournament than I had any right to based on pure skill, partially because Adila is a great player, but also because some of those GK units got overbuffed. We didn't win because Mathis and Fredbrik were an amazing team, and we never even made it to the point where spamming retreatinators could have saved us.

I think the increased health regen would have been a good buff on its own. But adding shockwave and retreat takes away basically all of their downsides, and enables a T3 termietrain. They were good last patch but not always he best T3 purchase. Now as long as you have the resources and can afford to wait long enough for the build time they're a no-brainer purchase.

I love GK but paladins (and GK terminators) are currently enjoying a quality of life far beyond what is needed.

[Hellstar]

and it is a fact that gk terminators are more spammable than other terminators because there is no cooldown or red cost

So how many squads would you say are typically spammed-out in games involving GK? Three? Four? Five? More?

[Crewfinity]

usually with one paladin squad and one terminator squad, you're able to establish such a dominating lead that you really dont need more... although you're usually able to inflict massive bleed with those squads while avoiding much of your own so you can usually afford a second terminator squad or a librarian for support or a land raider... at that point it's pretty much GG

[Atlas]

[rant]
Alright, enough!

I mean seriously people, lay off on the terminator talk. I think we've all said pretty much everything there is to say on this topic. Can we please talk about one of the HUNDRED other changes that 2.4 brought?

I mean jeez, can anybody take a crack guess at what % of the community regularly plays GK atm anyway? Is this just ruining every single one of your games to the point that we can't rest until this thread is a hundred pages long on GK Terms?

The right people have already read and heard your complaints; stop pming them on Steam or here and let's talk about something else.
[/rant]
---------------------------

I think Touch of Nurgle might have been a bit over-nerfed. I don't remember who said it, but someone else was talking to me about this a day or two ago. I get that it was wtf powerful with heretics before but perhaps we need to adjust this one a bit more in the future.

The FC needs to get his Diomedes voice lines back, and GK should have the Angelos ones. I thought I could handle it, but it's just a travesty at what has happened now. The Grey Knights should be the ones that sound dignified while the Space Marines should always sound like their mentally challenged younger brother who took one too many thunder hammers to the head.

Those PM and CPM buffs are really awesome :O

Having FtE for just 50 red might be a tad too cheap, I haven't played vs enough fc to be sure.

Still not sure how to feel about the global increase in tank speed. Idk, it just feels like the LR's now zoom across the battlefield

[Cheekie Monkie]

Hellstar makes a good point, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. If someone claims X unit is op, then it's that person's prerogative to prove his claims.

That having said, I do want to ask what Hellstar's standard of proof is. As Vapor already said, often the best standard of proof in mods like these is primarily general consensus and secondly the word of high level players, as even tournament records become unreliable evidence due to the small size of the tournament playerbase. The latter approach can seem oligarchical and definitely has its flaws, but in no condition should a less experienced player be expected to put up and shut up because all the pros said so.

I'd like to encourage you to re-read what Torpid said, not because he's a good player and we should all listen to him, but because he makes valid points supported by general consensus which are the closest thing to the 'by the numbers' evidence which we can get.

THEY CAN RETREAT. That's gigantic. It would be like if one could level and the other couldn't... In fact it is way more useful than that on squad that can kill tanks in moments and has a teleport.

They have superior ranged weapons than dedicated ranger terminators despite being melee terminator variants. Herp-derp. Combine that with a melee charge and you've got quite a ridiculous unit.

Then they have shock-wave which is quite obviously bugged atm so to speak - its damage is over 100, not the intended 30 and so there has been a clear implementation issue. Currently that ability makes them far more of a threat than an avatar is even...

In short, they're despised because they're an anti all unit which have few counters apart from throw your entire army at it and hope for the best - in a game which is derived from unit synergy and rock papers scissors.

A note on hyperbole - hyperbole is inevitable in any game which has the slightest notion of competitiveness, 'the sky is falling', 'terminator spams are everywhere'. However, there's often a rhyme and reason behind the doomsaying. In this case, I strongly believe that this is tied to the zero red cost of both terminator variants. This is absolutely game changing.

Firstly, you can use the red which you would have otherwise spent in building terminators in further buffing and supporting your already powerful terminators. Banshees giving your paladins trouble? Mind blades. Are your terminators at risk from being rooted by hero abilities? Dark excommunication. Both cases present a scenario in which the supposed counter to terminators fail due to the leverage given by the extra red - and we haven't even gotten into the part of the inherent terminator abilities yet.

Secondly, the missing red allows GK to build terminators sooner than other factions. This is exarcebated in team games due to the fact that you're more likely to be able to skip T2 altogether due to the relative strength of ops and the possibility of your teammate holding the line. The difference getting terminators out a few minutes earlier while your opponents are still stuck in T2 is immense and requires a huge investment to counter it, ensuring that your opponents are always on the backfoot and you become able to snowball your advantage.

[Triple d]

Nobs are doodoo

The si Glen most legit statement In this thread. And the difference between them being op and up is knockdown resistance.

Everything else seems to be rage from the regulars at being questioned so long and rage from the new guy at not being allowed to question.

Where my popcorn I need it.

[Triple d]

I'm with Atlas on this. Hell I even tried to make a whole other thread just for that load. And failed. Miserably XD.

Still though I'm surprised no on is on about interceptors yet. I've had comparable success whether I go paladin/termie heavy or if I go interceptor heavy on tier 3.

Double interceptors is the stuff of dreams. One shotting predators when I tele in from my rear to theirs yum.

Like how do you plan for that? What do you get?

I know paladins and ops are stealing all the hype but damn how am I the only one on this?

[appiah4]

I am not arguing that paladins are not OP. Why? Because I don't know if they are.

Then maybe you should just stfu about things you don't know about.

[Cheekie Monkie]

FTE at 50 is serious business, especially considering the fact that standard got buffed too. People just need to wake up to the serious dev combos (vengeance, lascannon and plasma) which this can generate.

Further reductions on GM upkeep have made them borderline impossible to bleed, being swarmier than even the hive swarm at all stages of the game. 3x GM, 1x sent has become the go to build in all game modes and allows the IG to dominate in 1v1 map control from the word go. This is especially problematic in the SM matchup as double scouts are inefficient in the MU and it's very easy for the IG hero/sent to bully the starting SM army.

[Hellstar]

Hellstar makes a good point, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. If someone claims X unit is op, then it's that person's prerogative to prove his claims.

That having said, I do want to ask what Hellstar's standard of proof is.

First off, thanks for your well-written post.

My burden of proof is reasonable, and depends on the context (the claims being made and how they are being made). The more outrageous the claim, and the stronger and more "in your face" the claim is, the stronger my burden of proof is. If I have seen few or no examples of the claim, the stronger my burden of proof is. If I have seen obvious counter-examples to the claim, the stronger my burden of proof is. If it is also claimed that I have to prove that their claim is false, but they don't have to prove that it is true, well....

If someone says that the game is overrun with GK terminator spam that must be reeled-in, well, I've never seen any terminator spam of any kind. Ever. The claim has all four hallmarks I described above of needing some sort of proof. It is outrageous, made strongly and "in your face," I've seen no examples whatsoever, and I've seen counterexamples (i.e. no terminator spam). Would it be too much of a burden of proof to, well, actually see some terminator spam, vs. just having to accept that it exists?

If someone says paladins are nobs, avatars, and terminators all rolled into one and thus constitute an "I win button," well I can go through the same analysis as above but I think you get the picture.

I'd like to encourage you to re-read what Torpid said...

I have no problems with it and never challenged any of it. He simply made factual statements as to the features of paladins (retreat, shockwave, etc). I didn't see anything that offended my sensibilities and experience, like a single paladin squad being an "I win" button, or hordes of paladin spam overrunning the game, so....

In short, they're despised because they're an anti all unit which have few counters apart from throw your entire army at it and hope for the best - in a game which is derived from unit synergy and rock papers scissors.

I played a game just today, against imperial guard. I got into tier 3 and managed to build a total of 2 paladin squads and 1 terminator squad. These were never on the field together so did not constitute a "spam." The paladins were killed twice and the terminator once, in trying to go after a leman rus. I'd teleport onto it and hack away while his guardsmen repaired and the rest of the army plus leman rus fired at me. If I targeted the guardsmen and slaughtered them, the leman rus took out the paladins/terminator, and if I ignored the guardsmen and targeted the tank, the guardsmen could out-repair the damage (or, at least repair it enough).

I lost that game despite getting out a total of two of these monstrously OP paladins, and a terminator. Then I went to Idris's channel and noticed two new vidoes I hadn't seen of the new patch. I watched one of them - a 3v3 where one side had two GK players. They got out these monstrously OP paladins and terminators, and even had multiples deployed on the field at once. They lost.

Again, some of the claims just seem hyperbolic to me, when I see all these counterexamples of the claims, and little to no examples backing them up. If paladins are as OP as people say, then most if not all of these examples would be wins vs losses.

I wouldn't have a problem with people backing off the hyperbole and simply saying they have a "sense" that paladins might be overperforming and might need looking into.

EDIT: Just saw your comment above regarding the imperial guard. Yes, that was my experience in the game described above with 2 paladins/1 terminator. Any semblance of map control was quite difficult for me to claw, he had huge swarms of guardsmen, he had TWO sentinels bullying me from the start, etc. Finally, the game stats showed that I bled him tremendously while taking relatively few losses myself. The stats were entirely lopsided in this regard, yet he still won.

[saltychipmunk]

If someone says that the game is overrun with GK terminator spam that must be reeled-in, well, I've never seen any terminator spam of any kind. Ever. The claim has all four hallmarks I described above of needing some sort of proof. It is outrageous, made strongly and "in your face," I've seen no examples whatsoever, and I've seen counterexamples (i.e. no terminator spam). Would it be too much of a burden of proof to, well, actually see some terminator spam, vs. just having to accept that it exists?

just because you personally haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, the absence of evidence for you is not the evidence of absence for every one else.

in point of fact i HAVE had games where 2 -3 terminator squads are on the fields . it is pretty damn easy to find if you are good enough to wipe out a gks t2 army without also definitively winning the game at that point as well or playing a team game where the gk skips t2 and knows not to be stupid enough to teleport the terminators into a fight.

I played a game just today, against imperial guard. I got into tier 3 and managed to build a total of 2 paladin squads and 1 terminator squad. These were never on the field together so did not constitute a "spam." The paladins were killed twice and the terminator once, in trying to go after a leman rus. I'd teleport onto it and hack away while his guardsmen repaired and the rest of the army plus leman rus fired at me. If I targeted the guardsmen and slaughtered them, the leman rus took out the paladins/terminator, and if I ignored the guardsmen and targeted the tank, the guardsmen could out-repair the damage (or, at least repair it enough).

I lost that game despite getting out a total of two of these monstrously OP paladins, and a terminator. Then I went to Idris's channel and noticed two new vidoes I hadn't seen of the new patch. I watched one of them - a 3v3 where one side had two GK players. They got out these monstrously OP paladins and terminators, and even had multiples deployed on the field at once. They lost.

just because you don't know how to counter a few guardsman repairing a tank doesn't really prove much of anything either you know...... especially given just how much aoe gk has at their finger tips

lemanruss tanks are possibly the best battle tank type in the game . and as far as counters are concerned a well supported battle tank is really the only unit that definitively counters terminator class melee units anyway.... this held true last patch and i would be shocked if it still did not hold true now.

using your terminators in such a way would be no different than trying to out shoot a tech-marine turret with 3 ranged squads from the front while the turret user was repairing it. It is quite literally no different than feeding units into a meat grinder.

don't get our words confused , most of us said "powerful and over performing" , or "better than other terminators." this is different from uncounterable. unfortunately terminators are not the only issue that gk has right now. it just is not that simple

[Wise Windu]

Seems to me like a lot of this argument could be avoided if replays were provided showing paladins flat out winning a game in which both sides were even or the GK was behind. And also assuming the opponent attempted to deal with it in a way that makes sense. If proof is needed, just provide it with actual replays instead of theorycrafting.

[Hellstar]

Seems to me like a lot of this argument could be avoided if replays were provided showing paladins flat out winning a game in which both sides were even or the GK was behind. And also assuming the opponent attempted to deal with it in a way that makes sense. If proof is needed, just provide it with actual replays instead of theorycrafting.

I agree with this. Could also show replays of games where both sides played reasonably but the GK paladins and terminators failed to win anyway.

[Sub_Zero]

You wrote walls of text. Torpid on the previous page in a very short manner stated all the things that make paladins truly overpowered. Contest these points or just stop this pointless argument. Paladins before the patch were alright. They were alright because they were somehow vulnerable to powerful anti-infantry melee squads. The ability ERASED this weakness. They were alright because they were always tied with risk. Now they retreat. Now they don't risk at all. This is what ruined this unit's balance.

And how everyone forgets about the hero that makes terminators faster and even more resistant to damage? And just to remind you super-heavy armor is probably the best armor on an infantry-based squad. Not to mention that this fat grey knight can also teleport and withstand a gigantic amount of damage. You just retreat when both terminators and he teleport in (an exaggeration, alright?). No way you can cut through it (in reality it is actually hard, no overstatements here).

P. S. I am afraid that terminators will get to keep their retreat and we will just have to adapt our play, just like in the case with havocs where the addition of the melee resistance aura is so obviously wrong and looks like nothing will be changed...

[Fallowfield]

I am not arguing that paladins are not OP. Why? Because I don't know if they are.

Then maybe you should just stfu about things you don't know about.

Firstly, this is unproductive and unworthy of what so far has proven to be a very informative and useful (for me) thread. Perhaps keep this sort of post to yourself in future - especially when your other posts have generally been really well put together arguments and points. No tone implied, no attitude, just a suggestion.

Atlas has made a good point here:

Alright, enough!

I mean seriously people, lay off on the terminator talk. I think we've all said pretty much everything there is to say on this topic. Can we please talk about one of the HUNDRED other changes that 2.4 brought?

I mean jeez, can anybody take a crack guess at what % of the community regularly plays GK atm anyway? Is this just ruining every single one of your games to the point that we can't rest until this thread is a hundred pages long on GK Terms?

The right people have already read and heard your complaints; stop pming them on Steam or here and let's talk about something else.

We have almost 4-5 pages dedicated to GKs and their terminator variants when this patch has afforded us a lot more than just GK changes.

My question then: has 2.4.1 balanced things so well with the other factions that we're left squabbling over whether Paladins are OP or not? And so, I'd personally love to know what people think about the rest of the update in terms of balance...?

DISCLAIMER: I'm new (to posting on the forums) and haven't intended to offend anyone here with this post.

FINAL THOUGHT: Nice one Hellstar for adding some incredibly well thought out/written posts to this thread and nice one community for not dispatching the lynch mob too quickly (though some of you might need to sheath your swords).

Let the debate continue - it's all healthy!

[Hellstar]

just because you personally haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

I agree. I haven't seen the tooth fairy or bigfoot either. Doesn't mean they don't exist. But just because someone else claims to have seen such things doesn't mean they DO exist either.

As such, my rational thought process has to be "believe what I see, disbelieve what I don't see." Sorry.

EDIT:

Nice one Hellstar for adding some incredibly well thought out/written posts to this thread...

Thanks guy. I'm glad you got some use and enjoyment out of it.

[MaxPower]

[..]
We have almost 4-5 pages dedicated to GKs and their terminator variants when this patch has afforded us a lot more than just GK changes. [..]

Dunno, maybe people are talking about Paladins (and GK Terminators to an extend) that much because they are too broken to ignore?

I myself tend to agree that the GK's t3 is dull. Most of the time it just turns into a "fast" paladin followed by a terminator squad or a land raider (or both). This wouldn't be that much of a problem, if you could bleed Paladins or GK Terminators. Something that is impossible now, thanks to them being able to retreat and teleport in.

Torpid already mentioned it, what if the other terminator variants could level, it would prolly a questionable decision to say the least, because they would shred everything in melee once they start leveling up (just watch some replays of retail back when they still were able to level)

Okay everyone knows that I'am biased towards SM but if I want the to wield my melee terminators the way a GK play can use them right now I would have to buy a Libby first + some of his wargear.

What I'm trying to say is that Paladins and GK Terminators have so many good and strong abilites from the get go compared to the other races super units. Super units like SM Terminators where you have to put alot of req and power into the unit itself or a supporting unit to provide them with an equal amount of staying power or flexibilty.

Also not costing red and not having a cooldown (remember, Chaos and SM Terminators have a cooldown of 7 mins) doesn't help either.

And no, I don't want to see Chaos and SM Terminators getting buffed (well maybe SM termies a bit ). I want the GK variants to be put back in to line.

Btw. an older 3.19.1 cast from indrid where I was spamming Terminators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn2Y1NvVqM4

[Caeltos]

P. S. I am afraid that terminators will get to keep their retreat and we will just have to adapt our play, just like in the case with havocs where the addition of the melee resistance aura is so obviously wrong and looks like nothing will be changed...

Devastator/Havoc melee resistance is here to stay. As is the paladin/terminator retreat function.

[Sub_Zero]

HellStar,
How many hours have you invested in this game? I've played for 2300+ hours. I saw a lot of things. My expertise allows me to judge about things without even seeing them in a real game. I knew that havocs with melee resistance would be terribad. Because I am perfectly aware how angrily Chaos forces can counter-initiate melee threats. Have you ever seen a squad of ASM (the tankiest T1 jump squad out there) get their health depleted to 1/4 just in a matter of seconds? Full doombolts/plague sword/knockback of CL + 2x doomblast + melee follow up of 2 heretics and that is it. Not even a scratch on havocs from a melee weapon. There is counter-play however. Use ASM purely for disruption and get away with the increased speed (they gain increased speed you know) allowing your forces to shoot down havocs. And then use this disruption again. But this is fucking onanism, you know? Forget about SM, they have snipers, at least they can deal with havocs in a less riskier way. What orks are to do? With their jump unit that doesn't do shit on landing. Rework stormboyz and create a new problem? No, revert back havocs to the their initial state. Chaos is very strong at counter-initiation, this is a crime to give havocs melee resistance. But as the time showed it wasn't such a game-breaking issue. Still it doesn't mean that this change was just. Remember old catachans? Game-breaking? No. But very and very overpowered. And in the case with terminators it was obvious probably for everyone who's been complaining here that it would be a terribad decision to allow them teleport and retreat. You don't need to see that in game. Try finding an absolutely even set of players, one who plays GK well and the other who plays well the faction that is considered to have the most even chances against GK and have them play like 10 games to find out whether terminators OP or not. You won't be able to do that. That is why your experience and expertise allows you to judge about things. Indeed some games that prove something are great but in every game mistakes can be found that ultimately led to the loss. A player who don't make mistakes and knows every single thing will never lose, even to the most OP things because there still will be solutions to them. So should it mean that there is nothing OP in this game if such a player overcomes all these difficulties?

As is the paladin/terminator retreat function.

Well I suppose you will make adjustments here and there to solve the blatant OPness of this, right? Like making retreat cost 100 energy so they can't teleport in, shockwave everything and then blissfully run away. Or just removing teleport. I am interested in the steps you are going to make. And these steps must be radical to justify the function to retreat on a unit that is so ucking godlike even without that.

[Torpid]

P. S. I am afraid that terminators will get to keep their retreat and we will just have to adapt our play, just like in the case with havocs where the addition of the melee resistance aura is so obviously wrong and looks like nothing will be changed...

QFT - Nonsensical balance decisions like this however make me wish it was viable to play retail. Except, because of past success and probably most importantly, continued technical support in the form of bug fixing and the like doing such is impossible since the vast majority of the serious playerbase in on elite. I think that's a fair impetus on the Elite mod developers to actually try and aim for making the mod more enjoyable. And since most players of it are serious about the game, taking balance seriously would help.