Snipers in T2/T3

[Torpid]

yeah.. i dont get the cl example either.

rangers at best are good at picking off medium hp commanders that are more defensive in nature or commanders that are capping points. but a cl ? especially one under tic worship? you are lucky to get maybe 2 shots off before that fella is well into some poor guardian's innards with his sword.

I mean isnt that the whole point of a line breaker commander as a perk? to break lines of setup units?

Not to mention he has that fucking combi bolter which wrecks rangers so hard. You need shurikens behind shields to be effective and rangers can't use shields like shuris since they need to keep de-setting up and pulling back.

[Caeltos]

The point being, a ranger is vastly superior in dealing damage to the pressure-based commanders, that won't allow them to assert their intended pressure. Shuriken in long range damage (pressure) wise deals absolute fuck all damage. It's close to neglible, it only pays off at medium range/close short range (which is well within the reach of the Chaos Lord to shoot + very quickly get into charge-distance)

Shuriken utility is more dependant on the opponent making a mistake and overcommiting in a fight. Rangers in conjunction with shuriken enforces the movement, which can lead to the opponent overcommiting. You're basically setting up the trap. I believe they in conjunction with one another works excellent. But if you go 2x shurikens, that's perfectly fine. If you go 2x Rangers, skip the shurikens - then you'll have to make due with how the new sniper utility works, alongside with the rest of the eldar arsenal. It no longer acts the same way.

Rangers as an independant unit isnt' as reliable as a shuriken however, and limits the viability build routes in the current patch (2.3.1) for say, builds that follows;
- Avenger, Avenger, (+ default) + Ranger = Very squishy , vulnerable to ranged-bleed.
- Shee, Avenger , + Ranger = Limited counter-agression option. Add in shuriken to help with that. Howevr, that results in quite a hefty T1 by eldar standards. (Most eldar T1 is a 4 squad build-up)

But I'm going to try to paint a picture of the intended future process that I want for eldar, without neccassarily making adjustments to how the rangers function. Dire Avengers is a unit that is really just wobbly and unprecise in their overall utility. They're a glorified grenade throwing squad for the most part, and their overall damage spunge/damage is really more on the back-end of things.

in 2.3.2 , the Exarch accessibility in T1, is to give eldar more ranged-oriented firepower in the early-stages of the game. Granting them that extra little juice of ranged firepower to help force off, or even help apply pressure based-builds. However, you'll have to be more conservative with the economical build up in the early-stages. Since Battle Equipment/Aspect of Avenger is merely just for the support-kit, whereas Exarch is for the damage increase + surviveability.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

If I may jump into this conversation...

The way I see it, you've turned a unit that's supposed to be the embodiment of "One shot, one kill" into a squishy T1 unit with a T3 unit's damage that fire a crapton slower. Sure you get sustained fire, but that's not what a sniper is in the least. They can be if forced under circumstances of course, but do you really think a sniper's going to fire rapidly and waste precious ammo if he can help it? This may have been done for balance, but essentially you got rid of the true snipers and brought in some lightweight knock-off in their place. The only real sniper you have in the game is the Vindicare Assassin (190 dph - 130 (tpr) dph).

For SM, if you want to keep their damage output the same as now, then have their T1 upgrade be to stalker bolters with the same dps with a faster firing rate, then give their old sniper to T2 as an upgrade for those that got the stalker bolter. If people want to spam they will spam, but with the extra utility cost, like maybe add 25 power to it, it should at least slow them down in accumulating a horde and give the receiver of this spam some time to get something like a walker or vehicle up.

For Eldar, maybe give them a modifier to HI right out the gate, then instead of the Pathfinder upgrade in T1 give them a stealth upgrade similar to the VA's and give them their old damage in T2 with their Pathfinder upgrade for the same power cost as above? 80 dph for a sniper unit of a guerrilla warfare faction doesn't make much sense to me, especially since rangers have a reputation for making everyone, in-game or in-lore or even in general, pissed offed... if you're on the business end of their scope.

[Caeltos]

The old snipers cost effiency & damage ratio + firing pattern will never ever the see the light of day ever again, in any shape or form.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Was not asking for that in the least. I tend to not get into numbers to simplify my ideas but I probably should here to make it more detailed.

Stalker Bolter

Tier one
100req 25pow

Base Damage&Range
range 0–45 health damage 55 courage damage 0

Firing Pattern
wind up 0 burst duration 1–1 reload frequency 7–10
wind down 0 cooldown 0.8 reload duration 2.2–2.2

Equip one squad member with a stalker bolter effective against infantry. Stalker bolters require no setup time but need to be stationary to fire and are highly effective at killing infantry from a distance, even units in cover or buildings. This upgrade increases Scout reinforcement cost to 35req and 6pow and allows access to the sniper rifle upgrade in tier 2.

Sniper Rifle

Tier two
110req 35pow

Base Damage&Range
range 0–55 health damage 170 courage damage 0

Firing Pattern
wind up 0.2 burst duration 0–0 reload frequency 1–1
wind down 0.8 cooldown 4 reload duration 2–2

Equip one squad member with a sniper rifle effective against infantry. Sniper rifles require a brief setup time, but are highly effective at killing infantry from a distance, even units in cover or buildings. This upgrade increases Scout reinforcement cost to 50req and 15pow

In total you've just spent 210req and 60pow for a 170dph unit that has 420hp while ramping up their reinforcement costs to 50req and 15pow from just 35req, and that's if this is your starting scout squad without the sergeant. If you buy another squad, that price ramps up to 420req 60pow, then up to 495req 75pow with the sergeant (though I haven't seen many people get one with snipers). Just getting two of these fully upgraded sniper scouts is almost enough for a LRR if you just save up 30 more power and don't spend more than 190req (save up 60pow and don't spend more than 40req without sergeants). Add on top of that that the last upgrade is in T2, and I'd say that it's not anywhere near cost effective as it once was.

[Atlas]

The old snipers cost effiency & damage ratio + firing pattern will never ever the see the light of day ever again, in any shape or form.

\o/ Hail Lord Caeltos

Even if you want to bring up what is essentially a "lore" argument, snipers still deal a ton more damage per hit than a regular attack does in this game. Rangers aren't killing monsters anymore, but they still have good support options for your army. Use them.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

I knew someone would bring up that lore argument. What's the point of a sniper if all it kills is a human model (tics, guardsmen, etc.) while chipping away at everything else? Sure in T1 that's one rather large chip, but after that they're a liability. They're a T1 unit so of course they shouldn't be as effective in T2 or T3, but they shouldn't also be a throw-away unit or a capping unit either. Rangers can use their Hollow Field and Kinetic Pulse to keep their usefulness late game, but what about the scouts? Infiltrate, ninja-cap, run away or sit in back and take pot-shots at units with health pools much too high for a single shot to make any difference in, as more times than not you'll move them right after that first shot when they've set up.

[Atlas]

Well, you should be moving them back after they take their shot so I don't understand the point of saying that. The beauty of scouts is if you don't think their sniper configuration will be that helpful to you, you have the option to keep them default or use shotguns. They can even come out much faster and cheaper sometimes if you just upgrade the starting squad with the sniper rifle.

If you're just looking for the dps, sniper scouts out-do rangers both in damage and cost. You're losing out when it comes to detection and infiltration, but this is a discussion on the power of the rifle, no?

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Well, you should be moving them back after they take their shot so I don't understand the point of saying that.

In T1 this is actually effective, where the health pools for just about everyone is low enough for a single 70-90dmg hit to force the unit to rethink its actions, more so if you've doubled up. In T2 it depends on the faction you're facing, the strategies you and your opponent are using, and the amount of squad wipes/new purchases as they won't be leveled up and thus won't have high health pools. In T3, they're there for ninja-capping and just being that extra dmg source for as long as they're alive, only really good for taking out fresh squads that have low health pools like Kasrkins(for a T3 unit anyhow), and that's only if they get more than one shot before dying or retreating in one of the meanings of the word.

The beauty of scouts is if you don't think their sniper configuration will be that helpful to you, you have the option to keep them default or use shotguns. They can even come out much faster and cheaper sometimes if you just upgrade the starting squad with the sniper rifle.

Compared to default, which can branch out as the situation demands, and shotguns, which are excellent counter-initiates that gives you a reason to keep them close enough for vehicle repair should you get one and get their sergeant for the grenade as they're already extremely close to enemy squads on top of making ninja-cap stopping easy with their shotgun blast, snipers are extremely situational that transition okay-ish at best and terribly at worst.

If you're just looking for the dps, sniper scouts out-do rangers both in damage and cost. You're losing out when it comes to detection and infiltration, but this is a discussion on the power of the rifle, no?

I'm sure that's because ranger have more utility than scouts with their kinetic pulse and their hollow field as well as built-in detection and some melee capabilities should the unit come under melee attack. Add on that those melee rangers only have pistols, making the unit easier to stay hidden with only the sniper actually firing in most scenarios, it makes them easier to use and keep hidden and more relevant to more situations than scouts, which are supposed to be for raw dmg. As for the discussion, it's become a mix of tier transitioning/usefulness and the power of the rifle, since they are tied together rather intimately.

[Atlas]

In my opinion, snipers should really not have any scaling potential. Not everything in the game needs to be useful throughout the game. I'm talking 1v1s here but sometimes being able to peak in T1.5, like what snipers allow, is what enables to win you the game by creating an insurmountable advantage that you can carry to a victory.

This is basically what units like the bloodcrusher and deff dread do as well, but in early T2. Both of those units just don't compare to other vehicles in the same category (though the bloodcrusher is really a unique kind of vehicle atm) but they serve the purpose you want them to.

Even then, I still think Snipers can soften up heros and high value targets just fine, allowing you to press that advantage with a quick push forward. There's use to be had imo. Good damage can be just as good as dropping models if it forces the squad to sit in base for a minute healing up.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

In my opinion, snipers should really not have any scaling potential. Not everything in the game needs to be useful throughout the game. I'm talking 1v1s here but sometimes being able to peak in T1.5, like what snipers allow, is what enables to win you the game by creating an insurmountable advantage that you can carry to a victory.

Not having any scaling potential would mean that the unit is viable in more than just one or two specific situations. If you don't get your advantage, you've got some catching up to do. Without anything to hold the line, the sniper gets one shot before getting jumped or charged, and so they have to either run back or retreat. If you try and double up on snipers, you're left open to a quick walker in T2 as that's 50pow spent, making getting a lascannon on devs, missile launcher on tacs, and thunder and lightning on assaults that much slower, not to mention AV wargear for the commander, if your commander can get any, or getting your own walker. This takes care of itself if the snipers prove effective, but there are many ways of making sure that doesn't happen.

This is basically what units like the bloodcrusher and deff dread do as well, but in early T2. Both of those units just don't compare to other vehicles in the same category (though the bloodcrusher is really a unique kind of vehicle atm) but they serve the purpose you want them to.

Since we're talking 1v1, those two vehicles/walkers can easily be useful at any point in the game. If the other guy has AV, then the two can go on a gen burning/crushing spree or wait until after a battle's initiation before going after the AV unit if it's infantry, since both have extreme line-breaking charges. Of course, if there is no AV, then you can do whatever the hell you want.

Even then, I still think Snipers can soften up heros and high value targets just fine, allowing you to press that advantage with a quick push forward. There's use to be had imo. Good damage can be just as good as dropping models if it forces the squad to sit in base for a minute healing up.

That is true, however you have to do enough damage to give the guy an incentive to healing them up, else they'll keep the unit in play and your snipers will get chased unless the situation deems that impossible, in which case the unit's already retreating for a completely different reason.

Tbh I was expecting a rebuke by this point at my stubbornness. I'm surprised.

[Lesten]

(Haven't read all posts in this thread, sorry. Just wanna share my thoughts on snipers.) Well, I can't say anything about scout snipers, but rangers are pretty much only good for their abilities now. Not saying their abilities aren't great, just that their damage is kind of lacking. I think the sniper change was the right move, but not being able to get kills with them is a bit frustrating.

Just one example out of many: In a recent game I had rangers on east side of argus, harassing some noise marines. Two shots before he moved them, no kill. Followed with the rangers, third shot on another model, no kill. Moved up again, fourth shot, no kill. Fifth shot, hits another model, no kill. Noise marines get under nurgle worship and regains HP about as fast as the rangers can shot it off. Sixth shot, no kill. (In this case he could have just pushed up his noise marines instead, they would have wrecked the rangers, but I guess he thought I had more stuff there.)

This is a pretty common scenario too. Takes several shots to kill even low HP models like guardsmen. So three things about snipers comes to mind:
(1) Snipers seem to randomly chose a new model to shot when they or even the target moves. (Not sure how it works, is it the closest model?)
(2) They're even more micro intensive than before, now that you have to constantly move them back and forth to keep shooting and keep them out of harms way. It takes so much of your attention just to keep them useful and alive.
(3) Sure, rate of fire is faster than before the change but effectively you can't shoot more often because the target moves and you have to tear down, move and setup again. So it's practically the same rate of fire as before, just with lower damage per shot.

Again, I agree with the sniper nerf, but I wouldn't mind a small buff to make them a little more attractive a purchase. Like 15-25% faster tear-down and/or setup, or slightly higher burst damage but lower rate of fire (SLIGHTLY, not nearly as much as before), or a small cost reduction, or a even a minor HP bonus. Could be worth experimenting with anyway.

[Crewfinity]

Tbh I was expecting a rebuke by this point at my stubbornness. I'm surprised.

This is a forum for balance discussions, no need to tell someone off for espousing their opinions

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Tbh I was expecting a rebuke by this point at my stubbornness. I'm surprised.

This is a forum for balance discussions, no need to tell someone off for espousing their opinions

Noted

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

What about increase their damage modifier against SHI? Right now its 130% IIRC. What about 150-160%?

[Sub_Zero]

What about increase their damage modifier against SHI? Right now its 130% IIRC. What about 150-160%?

Seems like a good idea. It will help them to not fall in significance when units with this armor type show up. Anything with this armor has a huge health pool, this change will hardly be game breaking.

But I still have that question about rangers' decreased DPS against light infantry. Do you consider their previous DPS to be broken? Because against the background of scouts this change seems unjust. I want to remind again that unlike SM Eldar don't have other reliable tools for offence. Changing to 95 damage per shot will get the value very close to the previous position (19 DPS) as well as not allowing to kill models with one shot (the ones that are not killed by shots dealing 80 damage).

Removing their ability to kill a model with one shot was the right step but cutting out their overall damage potential? Questionable in this very case with rangers.

Fighting say lootas is a "fun" thing to do now. You wanna know why? Because EVERY model can endure 3 shots. Do I need to say that rangers hit models kinda randomly, how many time do you need to dislodge something that should be countered hard by rangers? If rangers are to do any damage higher than that (at least) then they will be blessed with the potential to kill a loota boy with 3 shots... And the viability of lootas in this MU is not even discussed, it is up to players what to use, I am addressing a big issue that has nothing to do with personal preferences. 20 seconds to just kill a model and 4 opportunities for the ork player to counteract. Doesn't sound terribly balanced to me.

[destructomat]

Can you use kinetic pulse to soften the whole squad, then snipe to kill a 100 health model (DA, guardsmen)?

[Dalakh]

Kinetic pulse is too precious and has a too long cooldown to be used just to bleed one fucking guardman.

[appiah4]

Advanced Infiltration Kit could be reworked to additionally give sniper scouts high cover (maybe even garrisson?) benefits when in any kind of cover.

[Sub_Zero]

To not be forced to back off after every shot against a ranged unit? As a T2 benefit I would take it.

[destructomat]

Kinetic pulse is too precious and has a too long cooldown to be used just to bleed one fucking guardman.

Perhaps it is too precious, but it affects more than one, and rate of sniper fire was increased from retribution.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Looks like my stalker bolter idea was a bust. Oh well.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Another idea, what about bringing over High-powered Shot from the campaign?

[Atlas]

Another idea, what about bringing over High-powered Shot from the campaign?

Wish came true, it's on the Techmarine.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Well I meant on the scout snipers, but looks like that ain't happening. Forgot about that since I've seen no MCB since like 2.3.1 or something.

[Torpid]

Well I meant on the scout snipers, but looks like that ain't happening. Forgot about that since I've seen no MCB since like 2.3.1 or something.

Play against Red-Rupee.

He cradles that thing like it's his vibrator or something. Drags it along with his techmarine into every war.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Master-crafted Vibrator

1000 heavy melee damage per hit with a 500 hm dot and 100 courage dot to all infantry for 10 seconds. Abilities are as follows:

Gang Bang
Mark a target for gang banging. Target takes x10 damage from MCV's next hit. Stacks with Mark Target while increasing Mark Target's dmg buff by 60%. Can go through invincibility. Mark dissipates after 5 minutes.

Swiggity Swoogity I'm Comin for Dat Booty
Throw the MCV at target with 100 range and deal half damage upon hit. Next, TM chases after hit target with +20 speed after a 2 second delay dealing ability knockback and 200 hmd to everything he touches. Upon slamming into the target, deal x20 damage of normal attack. Finally, demoralize enemy units for 30 seconds and stun for 10.

Oh Yeah!
Attack yourself for half damage to "invigorate" yourself. Stun yourself for 2 seconds, then gain +25 speed and +300% attack speed. With the Bionics armor, the servo arm will grab the vibrator and "invigorate" nearby squads inside Powerful Sweep's aoe while only inflicting a tenth of the normal attack dmg.

[egewithin]

Master-crafted Vibrator...

These are belong to Slaaneshi armory. I don't know someone who likes tostmachines can like these kind of umm... fleshy stuff.

[lolzarz]

Emperor's Children traitor legion elements detected. Instructions?

Destroy by any means necessary. Exterminatus sanctioned. Ave Imperator.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Hey, the slaaneshi commander for chaos is in development, so might as well help out, no? XD