Nob Frenzy feels excessive

[Oddnerd]

I want to preface this by saying that I agree that certain dedicated melee units should have ways of making it to close combat without simply being suppressed or gunned down. I think an ability that briefly prevents suppression is a good idea. I also think an ability that prevents knockback for a short period would be good as well. Abilities like these that cost global resource present the player with cost-benefit decisions and can be designed to fit relatively well with the fluff.

Nob Frenzy not only makes the unit immune to suppression, it also makes them invincible and adds to their already insane damage. I personally hate invincibility, I think it is stupid, but I do accept arguments that it can be balanced reasonably well if ones opponents have sufficient ways to respond to it. For example - in other games, such as MOBAs, if an enemy is temporarily invincible, your team uses well-timed crowd controls to minimize the damage they do. Conversely, if an enemy is immune to crowd control, then your pure damage units try to selectively target them to bring them quickly or drive them off. If someone is both invincible and immune to crowd control, their is no adequate response other than to run away or suffer monstrous losses (nobs tear most units apart easily).

Its not like nobs are very soft either, they have an obscene amount of health and even have heavy infantry armour (even though they are no better armoured than Boyz on the tabletop). If you gave them an ability that just reduced incoming ranged damage briefly, or gave them a 10 second window in which they could not be knocked back or suppressed, would that somehow be inadequate? Are these guys so inherently weak that invincibility and crowd control immunity are needed to make them usable in this game?

[Wise Windu]

They're still vulnerable to all forms of knockback and snares like Entangle, which are the main ways to deal with them.

[Torpid]

Or from being kited since they aren't particularly fast without WEBO support.

Ultimately though knockback should exist in abundance come T3.

And nobs aren't performing very well in the current meta at all.

[Corrie]

If anything nobs need a buff to keep them on par with other factions their t3 is a bit of a joke atm in a 3v3 games. (In 1v1 there fine)

[PhatE]

There are 2 ways to make them really worth while and that is with the Weird boy with warpath or bigger brains or getting a painboy with + 1 speed which is really good. Their current speed is poo.

I played a game last night where I'd see whether it was worth while getting them again since the change to meener and greener and without either of those two units to support them they're a massive resource dump that proves more often than not to simply not buy them when vastly superior options exist.

[egewithin]

I remember where Orks were using Nobz in faction wars and never loose. Now we are here. Hmmmm...

[saltychipmunk]

if anything frenzy is the only thing keeping nobs viable. they dont have terminator level damage resistance otherwise which is what a slow fat unit needs to be dangerous.


and atleast they arent as bad as those flashgits. god those guys are so awful, i cant even fathom why they needed a nerf. all you needed to do to counter them was one tank , just one and they would melt. they only have 1200 hp 1200 , in t3 TEE THREEE what about them justifies 18 pop.

and they dont even start with their real weapons. they get like 70 piercing with no burst , 70 with no burst. its the pre good strikes all over again.

you would think with an army composition that HEAVILY features shoota boys (which can get around 70 piercing dps by t3 for less population and more abilities) would find flash gits base stats redundant....

orks don't need tier 3 pierce damage . orks need plasma , the current flash gits only exist to get the beamy upgrade as soon as they come out. that is lame so lame.

[Crewfinity]

and atleast they arent as bad as those flashgits. god those guys are so awful, i cant even fathom why they needed a nerf. all you needed to do to counter them was one tank , just one and they would melt. they only have 1200 hp 1200 , in t3 TEE THREEE what about them justifies 18 pop.

and they dont even start with their real weapons. they get like 70 piercing with no burst , 70 with no burst. its the pre good strikes all over again.

you would think with an army composition that HEAVILY features shoota boys (which can get around 70 piercing dps by t3 for less population and more abilities) would find flash gits base stats redundant....

orks don't need tier 3 pierce damage . orks need plasma , the current flash gits only exist to get the beamy upgrade as soon as they come out. that is lame so lame.

i'm going to disagree with you here.

Shoota boyz fully upgraded cost 420/45, have population of 15, and have upkeep of 33.15. their range is 38, big shootas have 41.
total dps is 67.54 piercing at level 1. so 2.04 dps/upkeep (78.35 dps piercing at level 4)

Kommandos without nob cost 400/40, have population of 15, and have upkeep of 38.25. their range is 38.
total dps is 87.5 piercing at level 1. so 2.55 dps/upkeep (101.5 dps piercing at level 4)

Flash gitz with gitfindas cost 515/85, have population of 18, and have upkeep of 45.9. their range is 51.
total dps is 97.5 piercing at level 1. so 2.12 dps/upkeep (113.1 dps piercing at level 4)

these units all have different roles. The main appeal in flash gitz is not their damage output (although it is incredibly high), but rather their range. having a range of 51 on that kind of dps allows you to counter setup teams (range 49), and inflict massive bleed while recieving no return fire. T3 shootas cant do this simply because they dont have the range, regardless of dps. if you lose your shootas in late T2 or early T3, flash gitz are a great replacement. That's not even factoring in the blastas which they can get, which absolutely shred HI and SHI.

Kommandos, on the other hand, are much more of a utility unit, despite the fact that they have the best pure damage output per cost. their nob rokkit launcher, infiltration, faster capping speed, and bombs make them an awesome support unit roaming around in T3. i love these guys

If anything I feel like flash gitz are overshadowed by kommandos, rather than shoota boyz. since kommados have infiltration, they are able to fully utilize their high dps just the same as flash gitz, and their other unique traits make them a more consistent purchase in most scenarios.

[Torpid]

Flash gitz, being HI and only having 3 models as well as having that superior range end up bleeding way way way less than shootas and kommandos though.

[Toilailee]

I remember where Orks were using Nobz in faction wars and never loose. Now we are here. Hmmmm...

Pls don't infect this place with youtube comment -levels of ignorance.

Personally I think nobs are in good place. They have a clear role and don't under or overperform, but maybe that's just me. I mostly play mekboy tho when I go orkses.

[saltychipmunk]

and atleast they arent as bad as those flashgits. god those guys are so awful, i cant even fathom why they needed a nerf. all you needed to do to counter them was one tank , just one and they would melt. they only have 1200 hp 1200 , in t3 TEE THREEE what about them justifies 18 pop.

and they dont even start with their real weapons. they get like 70 piercing with no burst , 70 with no burst. its the pre good strikes all over again.

you would think with an army composition that HEAVILY features shoota boys (which can get around 70 piercing dps by t3 for less population and more abilities) would find flash gits base stats redundant....

orks don't need tier 3 pierce damage . orks need plasma , the current flash gits only exist to get the beamy upgrade as soon as they come out. that is lame so lame.

i'm going to disagree with you here.

Shoota boyz fully upgraded cost 420/45, have population of 15, and have upkeep of 33.15. their range is 38, big shootas have 41.
total dps is 67.54 piercing at level 1. so 2.04 dps/upkeep (78.35 dps piercing at level 4)

Kommandos without nob cost 400/40, have population of 15, and have upkeep of 38.25. their range is 38.
total dps is 87.5 piercing at level 1. so 2.55 dps/upkeep (101.5 dps piercing at level 4)

Flash gitz with gitfindas cost 515/85, have population of 18, and have upkeep of 45.9. their range is 51.
total dps is 97.5 piercing at level 1. so 2.12 dps/upkeep (113.1 dps piercing at level 4)

these units all have different roles. The main appeal in flash gitz is not their damage output (although it is incredibly high), but rather their range. having a range of 51 on that kind of dps allows you to counter setup teams (range 49), and inflict massive bleed while recieving no return fire. T3 shootas cant do this simply because they dont have the range, regardless of dps. if you lose your shootas in late T2 or early T3, flash gitz are a great replacement. That's not even factoring in the blastas which they can get, which absolutely shred HI and SHI.

Kommandos, on the other hand, are much more of a utility unit, despite the fact that they have the best pure damage output per cost. their nob rokkit launcher, infiltration, faster capping speed, and bombs make them an awesome support unit roaming around in T3. i love these guys

If anything I feel like flash gitz are overshadowed by kommandos, rather than shoota boyz. since kommados have infiltration, they are able to fully utilize their high dps just the same as flash gitz, and their other unique traits make them a more consistent purchase in most scenarios.

well that settles it , now i know they are not worth it.

the big thing is that you tend to already have 2 shootas by t2 or t3 , you don't have kommandos or flash gits but you will have shootas a plenty. my core argument is that orks will already have plenty of piercing dps. they have that covered quite well with lootas and shootas.

and while the ranged on flash gits is ... nice ... i guess; this is also the same tier where every other race has long since achieved their own longer ranged units .. like artillery and battle tanks or power melee jump units all of which will bleed through flash gits and leveled shootaboys in equal measure. this is from experiencing it both ways when i fight flash gits i bleed them 1 to 2 models instantly most of the time because their pierce damage is a joke and their hp is an even bigger joke to my leveled end game units and thier armor type doesn't help them at all in the whacky world of plasma spam that is tier 2+. the only heavy infantry unit that bleeds easier than flash gits are dark reapers and those fellas are the undisputed champions of model loss.


kommandos are hugely better , not even on the same planet better , not only do they get infiltration but they get the best , ill say again the best nuke set up ability in the known universe. they pay for themselves with one well placed roks. they could be holding knives and i would still find many situations where they would be useful on their abilities alone.

and i also don't find that flash gits bleed well, because despite having good paper dps they don't have any measure of burst damage. its 90 -100+ dps of that sustained damage that is so easy to weigh hp and defense against that it only get dangerous when there there are 2+ of them at which point you probably have an army that does 80% of its ranged damage as the worst damage type in the game. Useful i suppose against some one dumb enough to only build large groups of squishy infantry.

so in the end its back to using their beamy upgrade

but i feel this needs its own thread .. again . back to nobs i suppose