Orbital

[DarnedDragoon]

Can we just make it cost 250 red at tier three and have done?

#1: can be placed manually

The other nukes are placed at random then ... ?

#2: lifts units in the air for ages, allowing you to do more damage to them

That's kinda iffy though, how are you going to do more damage against them? If they are caught in the other circles the affected player will just press the retreat button to deflect a lot of the damage. You can't go in with melee units for obvious reasons ^^

#3: good vs vehicles

Haha, no Then all the nukes are good versus vehicles
They are only good when you can keep the vehicle in place somehow, but if you already have those means the vehicle is probably done for anyway, so this is pretty much only applies against super unit vehicles.


Some good uses of the SM nuke would be to use it against static defences, to hammer and anvil the enemies forces between your nuke and your army, or in choke points. The big con is that the nuke doesn't do a whole lot in the outer rims of the beams, units will get lifted up before they reach the high damage points in the centre of each beam.

lines.

SM are strong enough.

Debatable.

I think Sub_zero said everything that had to bed said about how "good" the orbital is.

And the orbital being good vs vehicles? That is just a blatant lie, it does not snare a vehicle, it doesn't provide enough damage fast enough to destroy a vehicle that is microed by a half way decent play. I don't wanna sound rude or something, but please don't drink and write and make yourself look like a fool.

#1: can be placed manually

Although it can be placed manually, you will never see a player doing that so super efficiently so the enemies caught in the first beam will be juggled to another one and so on. And if you mean that it is harder to avoid 3 blasts than other nukes... well that may be true but it has no wiping potential whatsoever. I would rather miss 2 times but catch my opponent one time and actually kill his units than catch him 3 times and do nothing but force retreat.

#2: lifts units in the air for ages, allowing you to do more damage to them

And he just retreats them and that is it. A manticore's barrage + orbital blast absolutely wreck stuff together, but there is no manticore in the SM's roster, is there?

#3: good vs vehicles

Absolutely not unless we are including different setup mechanisms or asleep players

I think the ability is fine as is. Like most SM stuff, you have to be more tactical with it and it "synergizes" with your army very well, in that you will get a lot more mileage out of it if you use it to block off retreat paths and snare while your army shoots the shit out them, rather than try to use it like roks/eldritch. It's great for pincering an already weakened squad/army so if they retreat they get stuck in the beam and die, or if they stay and fight they get shot to death by your army.

Frankly I've seen more red wasted on this global than any other because people try to use it like roks/eldritch.

-Don't use it as an FU after you've retreated your army, because their attention is undivided and they will mitigate the damage or avoid it entirely (goes for any global, really).
-Do use infiltrated scouts to recon the area and place the beams methodically, then swiftly follow up with an attack. Placing the beams frantically when your army is dying is a good way to get shit placement. It requires four clicks and line of sight, so plan for that.
-Use a bit of psychology and try to predict where they will go. Using it while their maneuverability options are limited i.e. in a chokepoint or sandwiched between armies, and use it while they are distracted.
-Don't cluster the beams because there is absolutely no advantage to this. The explosions blast a snared squad out of range of the other beams so you do not get more damage this way.
-Don't cluster the beams around the initial warning marker, because your opponent is reflexively going to move away from the marker.
-For god's sake just don't cluster the beams!!!

[Cheekie Monkie]

Force Barrier their army into the nuke. Swag

JUST BECAUSE I'VE NEVER SUCCEEDED WITH IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, GAH.

[DarnedDragoon]

Force Barrier their army into the nuke. Swag

JUST BECAUSE I'VE NEVER SUCCEEDED WITH IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, GAH.

lol

[Atlas]

There's no reason to make such a drastic buff to the global. It has it's own uses in snaring an infantry army while your own forces get some extra damage as well as being able to destroy buildings/fortifications with precision.

Judging by the general vibes I've gotten from this thread, why not buff Tyranoformation to 250 red? Heck, let's make Rocket Run 250 red since it hardly touches vehicles.

[DarnedDragoon]

There's no reason to make such a drastic buff to the global. It has it's own uses in snaring an infantry army while your own forces get some extra damage as well as being able to destroy buildings/fortifications with precision.

Judging by the general vibes I've gotten from this thread, why not buff Tyranoformation to 250 red? Heck, let's make Rocket Run 250 red since it hardly touches vehicles.

Orbital bombardment? god most of the time it hurts the SM more to throw it that its opponent. Rocket Run is the best nuke to kill infantry squads are that on plain terrain but is also not stronger than abyss or eldritch

Orbital Bombardment- Usually doesn't wipe units but is arguably the best set up combo nuke in the game being able to catch units in the beams causing them to suspend in the air taking damage from another global say (plague cloud) or (Eldritch Storm/ Imperial Abyss) being the best

The Rocket Run is the global that literally stands on its own and really needs no set up support. You lay down the strafing run. Your opponent smashes the X button, but it really doesn't matter because it takes about .25s for you to register the flare's and then hit the x button, and then because of the fact the Rocket Run has such a large strafing Radius/ short delay time (2s), usually you get caught in it anyways and you see a unit or 2 disappear with a large number needing to be reinforced.

Personally I'd think that just increasing the time delay by an extra second or decreasing the strafing run radius in regards to the spacing of the bombardment (width wise) not length wise would help the situation drastically. But I have been in plenty of games where this global can easily change the direction of the game, at no fault to the player being caught in the Rocket Run because the time delay didn't allow for any or even a slight respectable and decent size amount of their forces to get out of it radius after retreating. (Right now, I'd say a 5th of your forces caught in a rocket run are likely to run out of its radius (Not including Eldar (F.o.F. FTW) if that were to be somehow calculated so that at least a 1/3 of your forces (Suggesting the opposing rocket run player has savored the moment to nuke you when your units are going through a narrow passage or somewhat congregated etc..) I think that would really help.

I believe that the damage that comes from the nuke, is very honest and quite balanced, in respect to what I'd believe a rocket run would be, but for balance measures... there at least has to be some chance for the player getting Nuked to be able to get some of their forces out without taking such considerable losses as of the case now.

Rocket Run does hit infantry very hard with almost no warning. It can "wipe an entire squad in the blink of an eye."
So I expect him to come back and tell you how hard Rocket Run hits. You can continue discussing.

@Tyranids nuke:
You guys can't underestimate the disruption and global buff it provides. It's amazing in the Tyranids race.
It also instawipes any structure it touches.

the damage from the nuke doesn't usually end up with the wiping of a ton of squads/ large amounts of reinforcement (that is unless there was a very large group of infantry piled underneath the capillary towers.

It doesn't have to to be effective at killing stuff because of the buff and the push potential the large area of disruption gives. It lets the Tyranid army potentially kill a bunch of stuff rather than being the kill move itself.

Just to make things clear, retreating units do not take 75% extra melee damage. They take 30% extra melee damage.

Now back to RR. I do think it is quite powerful. The best anti infantry nuke in the game. Very hard to dodge unlike most other nukes but still hits at least as hard as the other nukes.

[The Rocket Run is] extremly hard to dodge. It's also very hard to place corectly.

Global nukes have always been a bit of a sore spot with me . It's rare i use them ,cuz it's rare i ever let that much red pile up. However a well placed global nuke can totaly change a game. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

Now back to the Orbital, I think we could make it more like a Basilisk Creeping Barrage bring that red cost down to 175. I think the Orbital would more useful it's just intended as way to get an enemy to back off or retreat. How often does is it used for blowing up buildings or fortifications, is it guaranteed to destroy those buildings or fortifications, and is that really worth using 500 red on?

[Atlas]

All those quotes are literally proving my point; Rocket Run/Tyranoformation are just fine because they fill a very valuable role for your late game army that can swing a game. I'm saying the Orbital can do the exact same service if it isn't placed like every other nuke.

It's best used in army vs army fights, especially if they are infantry focused, as it allows you to essentially pincer them between the beams and your force. If they retreat, they are going to concede a LOT of damage and you'll potentially get some good wipes. There's some very good synergy with plasma devastators and hellfire rounds too.

And also, the anti-garrison component is something that it shares with Tyranoformation. It can be useful depending on the kind of scenario you are in.
As a side note, I'll also mention that the Rocket Run delay did in fact get increased, so it's not totally undodgeable now.

[Toilailee]

Use it in retreat path. First beam to stop the retreating army and then the other beams right before it so they land right on everything. There's not even any need for timing, all you need is vision.

[Swift]

When the orbital indicator appears even if it misses any sane opponent will then do their best to move, so even if you miss the beams you still scare them into moving somewhere.

[Cyris]

I think Orbital is currently one of the best nukes! The RR nerf was very much needed, and helped bring it in line.

The range on the shot spread is huge, allowing me to deal with 2 setup nests and still hit the main army blob. They fully CC units, even on retreat, allowing you to pour ranged fire into them. They wreck fortifications. It is a global that definitely allows you to push into a heavily fortified zone.

The only nukes I think need changes now are tyraniform is still weak (but nids are so strong that I don't care), and Roks is still strong. Orbital is in a solid place.

[DarnedDragoon]

All those quotes are literally proving my point; Rocket Run/Tyranoformation are just fine because they fill a very valuable role for your late game army that can swing a game. I'm saying the Orbital can do the exact same service if it isn't placed like every other nuke.

It's best used in army vs army fights, especially if they are infantry focused, as it allows you to essentially pincer them between the beams and your force. If they retreat, they are going to concede a LOT of damage and you'll potentially get some good wipes. There's some very good synergy with plasma devastators and hellfire rounds too.

And also, the anti-garrison component is something that it shares with Tyranoformation. It can be useful depending on the kind of scenario you are in.
As a side note, I'll also mention that the Rocket Run delay did in fact get increased, so it's not totally undodgeable now.

Yeah I don't think the orbital has the same potential as the chaos/eldar/ork/IG nukes. I think the 500 red price tag is too much. The orbital is not reliable and you can say "well it's all how you use it", but how many times have you seen an orbital used well compared to other nukes? You can even see it in Indrid's casts, he always mentions an eldar/chaos/ork/IG "Has enough red for a potential nuke." and doesn't even consider the orbital to be a game changer. It's not worth the risk of losing the options for the other globals.

[DarnedDragoon]

When the orbital indicator appears even if it misses any sane opponent will then do their best to move, so even if you miss the beams you still scare them into moving somewhere.

So does every nuke, and the Basilisk Creeping Barrage. If that's all you do with a nuke it's not worth it.

I think Orbital is currently one of the best nukes! The RR nerf was very much needed, and helped bring it in line.

The range on the shot spread is huge, allowing me to deal with 2 setup nests and still hit the main army blob. They fully CC units, even on retreat, allowing you to pour ranged fire into them. They wreck fortifications. It is a global that definitely allows you to push into a heavily fortified zone.

The only nukes I think need changes now are tyraniform is still weak (but nids are so strong that I don't care), and Roks is still strong. Orbital is in a solid place.

Orbital is far from the best nukes it is one of the worst. You're unlikely to wipe those setup teams. It's too easy to dodge compared to the rest.

[Swift]

Do you know the definition of reliable? Orbital Bombardment is the mot reliable nuke in the game there is absolutely no RNG to it compared to other nukes such as the chains of the Empyreal Abyss (Not Imperial Abyss ), the bolts of the Eldritch etc. It can be placed with the msot precision, it does equal amounts of damage each time, it does not scatter it does not hit random locations. You can rely that everything it hits it affects in a way you can measure. Tell me now that it is not reliable.

Please refrain from misquoting me, I said:

When the orbital indicator appears even if it misses any sane opponent will then do their best to move, so even if you miss the beams you still scare them into moving somewhere.

This means that if you do fail to hit them, then at least it has this result. Of course it's the same with every nuke but with the orbital the opponent gets a sense of uncertainty as to where the beams land. You know with the Eldritch the general AOE and the Abyss has one point of extreme damage, even if the bolts and chains can't be predicted, but the Orbital is great in that almost as soon as a beam indicator shows itself, it will start catching units, which is what the enemy might move to avoid. So even if you don't get the hits in there is a whole reshuffle of everything in the opponent's army.

[DarnedDragoon]

Do you know the definition of reliable?

Hey swift feel free to disagree with my opinion that the orbital bombardment isn't reliable, but you don't need to insult me.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reliable?s=t

Orbital Bombardment is the mot reliable nuke in the game there is absolutely no RNG to it compared to other nukes such as the chains of the Empyreal Abyss (Not Imperial Abyss ), the bolts of the Eldritch etc. It can be placed with the msot precision, it does equal amounts of damage each time, it does not scatter it does not hit random locations. You can rely that everything it hits it affects in a way you can measure. Tell me now that it is not reliable.

It doesn't wipe units with the consistency of other nukes and it can be still be dodged.

Please refrain from misquoting me, I said:

When the orbital indicator appears even if it misses any sane opponent will then do their best to move, so even if you miss the beams you still scare them into moving somewhere.

Ok buddy where did I misquote you? I used the quoting tool built into the site.

This means that if you do fail to hit them, then at least it has this result. Of course it's the same with every nuke but with the orbital the opponent gets a sense of uncertainty as to where the beams land. You know with the Eldritch the general AOE and the Abyss has one point of extreme damage, even if the bolts and chains can't be predicted, but the Orbital is great in that almost as soon as a beam indicator shows itself, it will start catching units, which is what the enemy might move to avoid. So even if you don't get the hits in there is a whole reshuffle of everything in the opponent's army.

Well you said it yourself "Of course it's the same with every nuke. . ." so you "reshuffle" their army so what? You spent 500 red for something you should be able to do with an army. You use nukes because you want to wipe units to get further ahead if your ahead or to catch up if you're behind.

[Torpid]

When the orbital indicator appears even if it misses any sane opponent will then do their best to move, so even if you miss the beams you still scare them into moving somewhere.

Your use of sane here is very very dubious.

[Swift]

When the orbital indicator appears even if it misses any sane opponent will then do their best to move, so even if you miss the beams you still scare them into moving somewhere.

Your use of sane here is very very dubious.

Then would you stand in an orbital?

Ok so to basically to say what I feel: Orbital is fine, use it better.

[Forestradio]

Orbital Bombardment is the mot reliable nuke in the game there is absolutely no RNG to it compared to other nukes

Every single nuke in the game hits in a pattern...

[Atlas]

This thread is veering off course. The Orbital nuke itself is fine. If we're going to measure success either by pure killing power and "reliability" (however you define it) than that leaves pretty much only Roks/Rocket Run as a viable nukes and the rest a waste of red.

Eldritch can kill, but is mostly useful for it's effect vs vehicles. Tyranoformation grants a huge buff zone to your units when you push. Abyss kills good, but can't be "relied on" to kill its target because they can move out of the circle. Orbital has its own place as probably the best positional nuke in the game as it can basically stop whole armies in its tracks.

I hate to bring up team games, but it's probably at its BEST when in 3v3s even. Considering how rare 1v1s even get to t3, let alone nukes, I think that is significant in this case.

Are we seriously saying that its value is comparable to relatively mid-tier globals?

[enasni127]

what i find most amusing in this thread is how people agree on the rocket run not being impossible to avoid anymore. on open field it was never a big deal to avoid being hit by it imo. i think the rocket run only makes any sense in very close spots and even then it usually doesnt wipe squads of non-squishy races and absolutely does nothing to vehicles. right now the RR is good for knock back or forcing enemies to move but its killing potential is only good vs squishy races and worthless vs vehicles.

i only remember one situation where i was not paying attention and lost almost my complete ig army vs and ig opponents rocket run but i remember many situations where i lost almost my whole army vs eldritch storms while i actually was paying attention and just couldnt get out of it quick enough.

[Dark Riku]

Every single nuke in the game hits in a pattern...

^This.

@Atlas: The Eldritch is amazing versus any target, I've seen it wipe armies many times before. It's the best nuke.

[saltychipmunk]

Roks are good too provided you set it up with a knock back ability,

as for rocket run i just wish the nuke indicators actually did a good job of showing where the nuke actually hits. it does not

[Cheekie Monkie]

Roks are good too provided you set it up with a knock back ability,

as for rocket run i just wish the nuke indicators actually did a good job of showing where the nuke actually hits. it does not

Blame the 2D6 scatter.

And Blame the BS3 Valkyrie pilots

[DandyFrontline]

as for rocket run i just wish the nuke indicators actually did a good job of showing where the nuke actually hits. it does not

What are you talking about? RR hits direct on the indicators

[Corrie]

Every single nuke in the game hits in a pattern...

^This.

@Atlas: The Eldritch is amazing versus any target, I've seen it wipe armies many times before. It's the best nuke.

+1

[DarnedDragoon]

Hey guys stay on topic we're discussing the Orbital. If you can't discuss the other nukes in the context of the Orbital then make your own thread.

[saltychipmunk]

as for rocket run i just wish the nuke indicators actually did a good job of showing where the nuke actually hits. it does not

What are you talking about? RR hits direct on the indicators

no it does not , it hits several paces behind the first tip meaning a player who would normally think to move forward past the tip to evade the run is in fact head directly into the first bomb hit. it is an incredibly misleading symbol .

orbital has a similar problem since it is difficult to see how far it reaches with its shitty ui representation which i remind everyone was NOT the case in vanilla since the 3 beams more or less would appear in or around the circle .

but i can also see that is more or less the point of it as well