Are 1v1 games balanced?

[Dark Riku]

manticore:

...

another point is the very big red indicator on the map which tells you about the rockets coming down long before they hit. i'm an ig player and i usually just move out of the red dot and don't have any trouble. the manticore is only good vs very bad players and it's horrible vs good players.

leman russ:

it's cheating?! almost everything you say about the russ is wrong, your numbers are imagination and your "math" cause of that false.

the leman russ is the most expensive battle tank in the game, it is also the slowest battle tank in the game, it deals less damage than for example a predator, has no special ability like the ork looted tank or knockback like a fire prism. Its only strength is its !35%! damage resistance and this comes for high costs.

Manticore shots can be setup. And the rockets come down faster the closer you are to the target.

His numbers might be wrong, but the core point is still there. (He's going OTT with anything he says though :/)
The tank does get a whopping 35% damage reduction! That's a bit over 1/3 of any damage just gone.
And GM do have a higher repair rate. Where his numbers were below what it actually is
GM repair at double the rate of anyone else, an additional GM squad will repair at the same rate as the rest though.

[Toilailee]

GM repair at double the rate of anyone else, an additional GM squad will repair at the same rate as the rest though.

1.5 times the rate of any1 else. Who's got their numbers wrong now?

[Dark Riku]

GM repair at double the rate of anyone else, an additional GM squad will repair at the same rate as the rest though.

1.5 times the rate of any1 else. Who's got their numbers wrong now?

You or the codex. Normal repair is stated to be 10hp/s while GM repair is stated to be 20hp/s.

[Toilailee]

GM repair at double the rate of anyone else, an additional GM squad will repair at the same rate as the rest though.

1.5 times the rate of any1 else. Who's got their numbers wrong now?

You or the codex. Normal repair is stated to be 10hp/s while GM repair is stated to be 20hp/s.

Wait wut, rly? Since when? :O
It was a fully deserved nerf.

[crazyman64335]

no the winning player is always a lucky bastard who doesn't deserve to win and is a shit player / person
1v1's imba pls fix

Kappa

[Adeptus Noobus]

This is what I found in the Elite_attrib.sga file concerning IG repair (I guess there must be some modifier I am not seeing)

[Wise Windu]

Under 'grant_remove_upgrade', right above the heal_action, the ig_sentinel_repair upgrade is applied to any vehicle being repaired, which grants 10 additional hp/s.

[Torpid]

Hehe, toil is such an IG nub.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Under 'grant_remove_upgrade', right above the heal_action, the ig_sentinel_repair upgrade is applied to any vehicle being repaired, which grants 10 additional hp/s.

Thank you very much. Riku was right then ^^

[Max_Damage]

IG sentinel is close to imba at t 1 and always was.
Best IG av weapon is... manticore. which got cheaper. Yeah sit back and click on your opponent and win kind of unit.
Come T3, you get those ridic leman russ tanks. THey get like what. 40% damage reduction from all types? Let me tell you this at this point this is plain cheating. Your tank gets 66% more HP and your units repair your tank 66% faster effectively as well! At this point there is not enough DPS to take out a single repaired tank most of the time.

IG bleed? lol. 7 req per trooper? try playing eldar and orks and see what bleed is.

Sentinel:

Absolutely not imba in any possible way. It needs alot of repair support and is otherwise focused to death pretty easily. people here spoke of units with the same armor type and more hit points (raptors, noise marines i.e.) and said it was SOOO easy to focus them down - then it should be even easier to focus down a sentinel. basic rule is to fire on its support first cause otherwise 2gm squads will repair the sentinel AND shoot at your troops.

manticore:

i absolutely hate the new manticore, cause it deals significantly less damage and the 15 power it costs less are absolutely unimportant. if you upgrade it to the "old version" you'll only get that for a ridiculous amount of money and suffer from another +10 seconds cooldown.

another point is the very big red indicator on the map which tells you about the rockets coming down long before they hit. i'm an ig player and i usually just move out of the red dot and don't have any trouble. the manticore is only good vs very bad players and it's horrible vs good players.

leman russ:

it's cheating?! almost everything you say about the russ is wrong, your numbers are imagination and your "math" cause of that false.

the leman russ is the most expensive battle tank in the game, it is also the slowest battle tank in the game, it deals less damage than for example a predator, has no special ability like the ork looted tank or knockback like a fire prism. Its only strength is its !35%! damage resistance and this comes for high costs.

Of course you didnt get it.

Lets say you ve got 25 dps weapon and 20 hp/sec repair.

A normal tank like pred can be killed by this weapon.
A cheat tank like LR cant because you are actually doing ~16 dps which is less then what is being repaired. After that, each repaired HP point is more expensive then the "standart" HP point because for every 2 repaired points your tank can actually take 3 damage which translates back into 2 because IG

[Cyris]

Lets say you ve got 25 dps weapon and 20 hp/sec repair.

A normal tank like pred can be killed by this weapon.
A cheat tank like LR cant because you are actually doing ~16 dps which is less then what is being repaired. After that, each repaired HP point is more expensive then the "standart" HP point because for every 2 repaired points your tank can actually take 3 damage which translates back into 2 because IG

So true. Let's look at a specific example to see how nuts this is...

A tac with a ML is firing at a Predator with a Scout repairing it.
ML deals 17.8 dps, and the scout repairs 10 hp/s. The predator will die after ~45 seconds of shooting (once it's at 130 health, the next ML hit kills it)

A tac with a ML is firing at a Russ with a GM repairing it.
ML deals 17.8 dps, the GMrepairs 20 hp/, and the tank takes 35% less damage. The russ will never, ever, ever die. It costs 50 more req and has an extra melta gun too.

2 tacs with a ML are firing at a Russ with a GM repairing it.
2 ML deal 35.6dps, the GM repairs 20 hp/, and the tank takes 35% less damage for a total of (35.6 * .65 - 20) 4.2 dps. The Russ will live for ~78s untill it has 169 health left, and die to the next hit.

3 tacs with a ML are firing at a Russ (with +100 health from tank crew) with a GM repairing it.
3 ML deal 53.4dps, the GM repairs 20 hp/, and the tank takes 35% less damage for a total of (53.4 * .65 - 20) 14.7 dps. The Russ will live for ~23s untill it has 253 health left, and die to the next hit.

And these are assuming all 2/3 ML's hit at the exact same time. Add a 2nd GM to repair or a bunker, and you can see why some people might occasionally say the Russ is a bit overpowered, considering it is again, exactly 50 more req cost then a predator, before upgrades.


(Hey Vapor, can you check my maths?)

[xXKageAsashinXx]

melta gun

Lascannon. It's a front-mounted lascannon.

[Bahamut]

Races behave differently in 1v1 vs team games almost everybody knows that. For example land raider redeemer is quite weak in 1v1, pretty much the worst super unit in the game. But in team games a LRR makes the whole difference. Or Chaos in general, they just get ridiculously strong in team games since all the stuff that balances their retarded strong stats are gone in team games so they just snowball to hell in 3v3s where as they're fine in 1v1

dunno about 1v1 but for team games IG is fine, tho karskins are useless as fuck and BB is quite overpriced for all the nerfs it got.

[Swift]

Races behave differently in 1v1 vs team games almost everybody knows that. For example land raider redeemer is quite weak in 1v1, pretty much the worst super unit in the game. But in team games a LRR makes the whole difference. Or Chaos in general, they just get ridiculously strong in team games since all the stuff that balances their retarded strong stats are gone in team games so they just snowball to hell in 3v3s where as they're fine in 1v1

dunno about 1v1 but for team games IG is fine, tho karskins are useless as fuck and BB is quite overpriced for all the nerfs it got.

I'd actually say that Chaos is stronger in 1v1 than team games, not weak, but stronger as they have less inter-faction synergy as other actions do.

And IG are a nightmare to face, they don't control, they dominate tier one with Sentinels.

[Corrie]

Races behave differently in 1v1 vs team games almost everybody knows that. For example land raider redeemer is quite weak in 1v1, pretty much the worst super unit in the game. But in team games a LRR makes the whole difference. Or Chaos in general, they just get ridiculously strong in team games since all the stuff that balances their retarded strong stats are gone in team games so they just snowball to hell in 3v3s where as they're fine in 1v1

dunno about 1v1 but for team games IG is fine, tho karskins are useless as fuck and BB is quite overpriced for all the nerfs it got.

This is pretty spot on

[Rataxas]

I wonder how you can even talk about balance in 2v2 / 3v3 ?

Lets just think about that , balance its something that makes you race equal , match , to the race of your opponent. Balance give chance to fight back to other race when lets say your skill is on the same or similiar leve what your opponent.
So my question is , how you want to make balance , talk about balance in 2v2 or 3v3 ? There can't be something like that cause :

- you can have 4 diffrent races in 2v2 ( in 3v3 even 6 )

a1) that makes your build orders useless , lets say going 1-2 ASM against Eldar is fine or other SM player but if he will be supported just by orc with some sluggas you get raped very quickly. That not makes you bad player , or broken balance in the game. That means the other team did good, and this is what about in team games to use tactic , some playes , some team play and communication.

- your eco ( power ) share with others , and req points also is in share ( right ? )

b1) in normal 1v1 you cant just build big army and not bash the gens, cause if you will invest more than your enemy ( like much more not talking about one turret more or 1 scouts ) and not bash his power , this makes you suffer much more. Also with bigger army you need to make better map control.
More units - more point on map simple rule but to bad its not working like that, cause the balance is broken.


There is more points i could just bring overe here about why we cant talk about balance in team games. But simple point is that balance can be made for 1v1 games, cause only there we face against 1 race , 1 player.

IF you disagree its your problem.

[Rataxas]

Lets say you ve got 25 dps weapon and 20 hp/sec repair.

A normal tank like pred can be killed by this weapon.
A cheat tank like LR cant because you are actually doing ~16 dps which is less then what is being repaired. After that, each repaired HP point is more expensive then the "standart" HP point because for every 2 repaired points your tank can actually take 3 damage which translates back into 2 because IG

So true. Let's look at a specific example to see how nuts this is...

A tac with a ML is firing at a Predator with a Scout repairing it.
ML deals 17.8 dps, and the scout repairs 10 hp/s. The predator will die after ~45 seconds of shooting (once it's at 130 health, the next ML hit kills it)

A tac with a ML is firing at a Russ with a GM repairing it.
ML deals 17.8 dps, the GMrepairs 20 hp/, and the tank takes 35% less damage. The russ will never, ever, ever die. It costs 50 more req and has an extra melta gun too.

2 tacs with a ML are firing at a Russ with a GM repairing it.
2 ML deal 35.6dps, the GM repairs 20 hp/, and the tank takes 35% less damage for a total of (35.6 * .65 - 20) 4.2 dps. The Russ will live for ~78s untill it has 169 health left, and die to the next hit.

3 tacs with a ML are firing at a Russ (with +100 health from tank crew) with a GM repairing it.
3 ML deal 53.4dps, the GM repairs 20 hp/, and the tank takes 35% less damage for a total of (53.4 * .65 - 20) 14.7 dps. The Russ will live for ~23s untill it has 253 health left, and die to the next hit.

And these are assuming all 2/3 ML's hit at the exact same time. Add a 2nd GM to repair or a bunker, and you can see why some people might occasionally say the Russ is a bit overpowered, considering it is again, exactly 50 more req cost then a predator, before upgrades.


(Hey Vapor, can you check my maths?)

Im sorry but correct me if im wrong , DPS is not the same what is HP/s ? ML took 130-140 HP by one single shot so the rate of fire is 8 seconds ?maybe 8 ? thats means every lets say 8 second scouts can repair 80 hp but TSM with ML will take 130-140.

Anyway its not working like that, i mean like who is even fighint with 1 TSM vs 1 Veh ? , Infantry will bleed , vehs not , you just dont want to pick that fight... Every good 1v1 player knows that. So that math is pointless.
In normal fight you probably will have T2 with ASM , DEV lass canon od DEV plasma , TSM , some scouts with snips or just to map control and FC with the fist or stormshield. That means If IG player does not have fully upgraded 2 squads of GMs with plasma and commi , + bunker somewhere around + HWT somewhere behind , + hero with 2 gears on it like crossbow on inqi or healing armor on LG + some dunno cata ? or storm to better map control and you want also build a leman russ here ? Pls count this ... do math overe here how much IG player will spend vs SM player.

[Crewfinity]

Im sorry but correct me if im wrong , DPS is not the same what is HP/s ? ML took 130-140 HP by one single shot so the rate of fire is 8 seconds ?maybe 8 ? thats means every lets say 8 second scouts can repair 80 hp but TSM with ML will take 130-140.

Anyway its not working like that, i mean like who is even fighint with 1 TSM vs 1 Veh ? , Infantry will bleed , vehs not , you just dont want to pick that fight... Every good 1v1 player knows that. So that math is pointless.
In normal fight you probably will have T2 with ASM , DEV lass canon od DEV plasma , TSM , some scouts with snips or just to map control and FC with the fist or stormshield. That means If IG player does not have fully upgraded 2 squads of GMs with plasma and commi , + bunker somewhere around + HWT somewhere behind , + hero with 2 gears on it like crossbow on inqi or healing armor on LG + some dunno cata ? or storm to better map control and you want also build a leman russ here ? Pls count this ... do math overe here how much IG player will spend vs SM player.

yeah so ML deals around 130 damage every 7.3 seconds, while scouts repair 73. that means ML effectively deals 57 damage every 7.3 seconds, which translates to about 7.8 dps.

but yeah, I dont think Cyris was trying to present this as a realistic scenario, but rather using those numbers to compare the survivability of the two tanks. i doubt you'll ever see a leman russ and ML tacs sitting there shooting each other for 80 seconds straight, but its pretty easy to look at those numbers and see just how tough the leman russ is. That said, the predator is both faster and does more damage, so tradeoffs yo. Unfortunately the pathing in this game for vehicles tends to reward survivability rather than speed/damage, since its so easy to make mistakes and lose them.

leman russ damage resistance along with cheap high DPS plasma guardsmen who repair faster with bunker/chimera supports can be a bitch to dislodge, but we already all knew that. Borderline OP imo but that's IG's thing more or less.

as far as the compositions you listed....
yeah thats like way too much math. I aint adding up costs of 2 different full T3 armies