thoughts on units that build without their unit defining abilities

[saltychipmunk]

So I have hinted at this issue in other threads here and there but to summarize. When I look at a unit upgrade or side-grade I do so to fulfill one of two specific requirments

1 I want to somehow change or augment a unit's roles .
or
2 I want to improve a unit's scaling into future tiers.

That being said there has always been a subset of units and abilities that seem to almost if perhaps entirely not fit into this mold. coincidentally some of these units are also considered under performing in some circles.

some units that show this are.
flashgits
nobs
ogryns


Not all of these units are underperforming , I want to make this clear at the start . I don't find all the units on that list explicitly underpowered

All of these units ship with upgrades that are in the same tier .. so scaling is not an issue. And all of these units ship with an upgrade doesnt augment or change their role but rather out right defines their roll. What I mean is that these units kind of simply dont function well at all without also buying said upgrade.


For the nobs its their battle rage. without the invulnerability there is absolutely nothing special about nobs. they are infact just a excessively popheavy, power sucking , req hog of a unit that is basically a slow fat melee unit that kinda sort of hurts tanks but can be easily countered by the very same t1 cheap as dirt melee counters that worked at the start of the game.

So my question is ... why the hell dont they start with that ability? lets not pretend here we all know it is a must buy for them, it defines them. So much so that we can safely just change their cost to 550 125 and apart from building slower . nothing else would change.


Ogryns are very much in the same boat. Can anyone seriously say they would buy ogryns without then buying the bone head for their charge? again without that charge what are ogryns? just a slow fat resource blackhole of a unit that is kinda good in melee and kinda ok at hurting vehicles.

Why do they not start with the charge? again apart from the time delay the addition of the bonehead is inevitable

Finally we have flash gits a unit which no one buys without also buying the git findas and very often the beamy upgrades . this is a pierce dps unit in an army with one of the most common pierce damage units: the shootaboys. their initial setup has redundancy written all over it . Again why? whats the point?

There is a unit that could have ended up just like them , purifiers:
purifiers are possibly in the best spot. And while their leader grants access to melee heavy , a nice aoe knockback and an area denial skill , they still have their insane charge which more than anything else defines them as truly unmatchable t2 melee units and they get an energy share ability. They launch with character.


This has been bothering me for a while because I remember an interview from relic claiming they never liked how certain base versions of units were never ever used because the player would go straight into the upgrades instead. ironically this was about nobs as well... poor fellas

[Caeltos]

Certain upgrades are an indirect cost-upper (or however the hell you would put it). As your example, if Flash Gitz were not to have gitfindas, they may have a much higher cost efficient ratio based on their cost. If we were to add the cost of Gitfindas into the Flash Gitz themselves to remove a "redundant" upgrade to to say, the reinf/cost ratio becomes abit problematic in terms of how to balance out the economy.

450 + 65 = 515 (Now keep in mind reinf. cost is based on the formula - Cost divided by 2, divided by X (X = amount of models in the squad by default)

So they would go from 75 to 85 requisition per model to reinforce. The power cost would go up from 10 to 12.5 (I believe it would be 13)

So in the end, certain upgrades are meant to be a somewhat of a "neccassity" to upgrade for squads, but for the most part, they're meant to be a one-time fee upgrade, if they were not, and instead tied directly to the base-squad cost. You would have a higher reinforcement cost ratio. If you don't mess with the cost of the squad, you run the risk of having a too cost-efficient squad.

[Cyris]

It also lets you field them earlier, since you don't have to wait for the resource to pile up and make 1 big purchase.

To elaborate a bit on what Cael is saying, imagine we have a new squad: Striking Scorpions. Balance wise, once all it's abilities and stats are added up, we think it should cost 800 req. Now, this is far too much to charge for a T2 squad, so instead the price is broken up:

500 - initial purchase
100 - awesome commander
200 - aspect of scorpion

Now, you can field a weaker form of the squad a full minute earlier in a match (assume 300 req/min income), and slowly build it to it's full potential. This ALSO has the effect of reducing the reinforce cost as Cael pointed out. Let's assume the squad is 5 members (4 + leader in the split cost):

Price at 800 - Each model costs 80 (800 / 5 / 2)
Split Price - Each model costs 62 (500 / 4 / 2) plus 100 for the leader


So, three advantages or "split costs":
Field the unit earlier.
Buy exactly the upgrades you want, when you need them.
Lower reinforce cost.

[saltychipmunk]

another question then , at this point do some of these upgrades need to exist as upgrades? As i said before some of these units are under performing , specifically non upgrade ogryns and non upgraded nobs . for their cost what they do is quite lack luster.

not to mention in the case of ogryns they can cost as much as if not more than a tank while having far less presence or impact and this is caused in no small part because they need the bonehead in order to get the upgrade that does make them impactful.

same with the nobs , people have been saying for a while they simply dont perform for their cost which is true after upgrades and really really really true prior to upgrades.


ill concede the flash gits bit, but then again i find flash gits excessively weak for a different set of reasons.

[egewithin]

at this point do some of these upgrades need to exist as upgrades?

IGNORE THIS
Don't they exist as upgrades? Don't tell me you knew them as kebaps please. An upgrade is an upgrade, not a kebap.

DON'T IGNORE THIS
Well, if you understanded the cost plan was for getting them easyer, I have another point to explain about. They are not underperforming.

Nobz can destroy every vehicle in the game. Proven by my double repair + wraithbone Wraithlord couldn't kill them, much worse, killed by these Nobz. They are doing amazing amounts of damage, can't stop them unless a knockback if Frenzy is active and getting very tanky with every level they up. What esle do you want? They are working good for me.

Orgyns are very usefull for IG. Yes, without their charge they are just a fat big melee squad, and can be suppressed eather so you can't just run into a setup team like Nobz. But these are some counter ways for them. Otherwise, you can not beat them. Also, a real good solution for Assault Cannon or Tzeentch Dreads. Or incase of annoying ASM. They are versitale.

Flash Gitz are good anti-infantry option but I am looking for AV in late game so couldn't use them a lot. Maybe never. I don't play Orks that much.

[Tex]

I have been seeing a lot of whining in regard to flash gitz lately.

I'm getting the feeling people are forgetting some pretty important late game orky stuff here:

1) Orks used to have huge problems in terms of ranged superiority battles. Now Flashgitz can do this job extremely well.
2) Setup team spam is an eternally viable strategy against orks when combined with scouting or artillery. Flashgitz poop all over setup teams.
3) Some races have easy mode artillery. I'm not saying that the weirdboy isn't an easy mode unit, but he doesn't necessarily force your opponent to initiate unless he gets good hits. When Flashgitz begin to fire (they pretty much count as piercing artillery), your opponent basically needs to decide on fighting, or retreating the unit that is being fired upon. Having the ability to harass an enemy like this in T3 is invaluable, especially for orks, who are traditionally the faction that are marching forward to meet the enemy.

[Cyris]

Tex, you need to post more

[saltychipmunk]

I have been seeing a lot of whining in regard to flash gitz lately.

I'm getting the feeling people are forgetting some pretty important late game orky stuff here:

1) Orks used to have huge problems in terms of ranged superiority battles. Now Flashgitz can do this job extremely well.
2) Setup team spam is an eternally viable strategy against orks when combined with scouting or artillery. Flashgitz poop all over setup teams.
3) Some races have easy mode artillery. I'm not saying that the weirdboy isn't an easy mode unit, but he doesn't necessarily force your opponent to initiate unless he gets good hits. When Flashgitz begin to fire (they pretty much count as piercing artillery), your opponent basically needs to decide on fighting, or retreating the unit that is being fired upon. Having the ability to harass an enemy like this in T3 is invaluable, especially for orks, who are traditionally the faction that are marching forward to meet the enemy.

this only partially true. they are only a measurable contributor once they are fully upgraded with the spike splash death damage, i say this because while flash gits do have good pierce damage and range , they dont have a good damage vector because its not all that bursty . until then they will lose to most heavy infantry armed with conventional t2+ gear because their hp pool is smaller than comparable leveled units one can see at this stage of the game. but once you do get their iupgrades you have a unit that is still fragile while also running you into terminator level req and power costs. better hope the other guy doesn't get a tank or those gits are going to be eating shovel fulls of dirt.


if you want to crush a ranged blob , you can get stikks and a weird boy . the spams of stun and explosives alone will force off even the largest blobs of heavy infantry long before there is a need for beamy gits.

and really if the opponent is spamming light infantry , then i don't see much of an issue..... unless its eldar which doesn't spam infantry but rather specialist units ... very different .

the way i see it now is that gits are a comeback unit. in that say you fucked up and lost your stikks or your shootas .. well then there is of course no real reason to get another of those squads

I all that i know is in the countless ork games i have played recently (200 -400) since i got back into playing warboss in the last month or so.. i have yet to find a situation where i needed them for their resource investment.

And it is most certainly not from a lack of trying I assure you of that.

[Tex]

I can see where you are coming from in terms of playing the warboss. His inherent lack of ranged AV means that flashgitz are going to be much more vulnerable to tanks.
In my experience though, I view the warboss (mek being a super close second, but he's OP so lets not speak of him) as the hero BEST SUITED to use flashgitz, and here's why:

1) Ardboyz allows them to effectively increase their HP by 25% in tough fire fights
2) Flash gitz are easily countered by jump troops. Jump troops are punished very hard by the warboss, his gear (ahem.. cybork), and his ability to support melee counter initiation (UYC).
3) Setup team spam is 100% viable against the warboss, all the way into T3.5. Flash gitz poop on this.
4) The weirdboy and stikkbommas compared to flash gitz is a tough argument. Here's the obvious though. The prior does not fire on the move and requires higher levels of micro and skillshotting for optimal use. The latter fires on the move, does focused damage, and requires very little micro.
In the later stages of the game, you will be contending with leveled up heroes, sub-commanders, and elite squads that typically have high hp low model counts. Stikkbommbas suffer tremendously against these types of units. The weirdboy struggles against commanders and sub-commanders as well. Flash gitz do not.

Conclude what you want, but I think if you take a good look at what I'm presenting, you might start to edge over to my side of this argument.

[Bahamut]

why does weirdboy suffer against commanders and subcommanders? it does KB on everyshot... unless it's a KB inmune hero the webo does a wonderful job keeping commanders at bay

[PhatE]

The Weirdboy might do that for 2 shots max but given that he fires far slower than the old days they can get close enough to him to put the pressure on. The vomit minimum range also doesn't help keeping them off for very long either. He'd need something like Warpath to get away since his regular speed isn't all that spectacular (melee charge comes to mind).

These are probably biggest reasons why you don't see the weirdboy as the first purchase very often outside of there being changes to the trukk and deff dread which are more fun to play with.

But then again it's not often that you'll see a 1 vs 1 of a commander vs Weirdboy.

[saltychipmunk]

weird boy is far more useful in team games than in 1v1 since he is a source of a large aoe stun and with an upgrade a modestly cheap method moving armies around.

Just park his butt behind your mates units and wait for a jump unit to land on them or for the enemy armies to blob up, one vomit alone can be deadly.

he works better than stikks by simple fact that his warp vomit doesn't hurt friendlies which is a huge boon when you are trying to take down terminator class melee units with nobs or weaker melee units.


going back to war boss and setups , this is only partially true. the lootas are an excellent method of largely mitigating setup spams, park it behind your units. then fall back. wait for the enemy to de setup and move forward . and then ambush the shit out of them. if you use the boss poll lootas get a pretty good chance to out courage damage the other setups at certain ranges.

and as for later tiers , wierd boy , sticks , trukk , kann. what more do you want from setup murder.

i dont mention storm boys just because in team games and even 1v1 they are too fragile to tie up a supported setup team without losses for long enough to matter.

[Cyris]

i dont mention storm boys just because in team games and even 1v1 they are too fragile to tie up a supported setup team without losses for long enough to matter.

Agree with most of the other stuff you said, but gotta call this out. Storms are absolutely useful 1v1, but much like T1 sluggas they gotta be used carefully. They are not for every matchup (no IG!) but I urge Ork players to not overlook this unit. Supporting them with your commanders buffs (Hard Boys, Battery Pack, Hide da Boys) and using them as more follow-up or counter-initiation will get a LOT of value out of them, and T2 suicide bombers are crazy good with a Trukk. They are indeed not so good at initiation or jumping a supported setup team, that's the job of ASM and Raptors!

And yeah, not so much in team games

[saltychipmunk]

but do orks have asm or raptors? the whole reason why i mentioned stormboys was because the previous fella mentioned warboss trouble with setup teams.

So in the context of being a reliable method for dealing with setups... they kinda still fail . regardless of all those other admittedly interesting uses you mentioned.

they are awful at tying units up while under pressure . they have too many models , the wrong armor type and low hp. so if they jump on a supported set up team the best they can probably do is de-setup said setup unit before needing to run away.

using storm boys offensively is like leading a charge with banshees

[Cyris]

Sorry if I misunderstood! As you said, stormies totaly gotta get comboed to counter setups. They alone will not manage it, much like a single Ravenor squad. Mix in a loota advancing, a WB going in first, shootas suppressing or sluggas with doc taking hits, and then they can do work. The Banshee analogy is perfect imo.