Tyranid gaunts

[Hellstar]

Do they suck?

I've put some time into playing tyranids but can't seem to do anything with them. I've narrowed down my main problem (at least at this juncture), and it seems to be gaunts. You have to build them at the start because... what else are you going to build? But they seem to suck pretty hard.

I almost always face space marines or chaos space marines, so lets concentrate on those. I've noticed in videos that most people use termagaunts, so I've tried making a couple of those at the start, but it seems like there's no way they can outshoot tacs or csm. I've gone to just spamming pure hermagaunts because, well, at least that way I'm not trying to outshoot something that can't be outshot. But it isn't as if hermagaunt spam works either, although I do have more luck with them than terms.

How are these guys supposed to be played? How are gaunts supposed to be used so that they don't suck? Etc. Assume a marine-type enemy.

Any tips appreciated - thanks.

[Jes]

That's because you're not using nids right.

Toxin sacs lets your termas cripple and kite melee squads.
You use hormas for ranged squads, preferably in large numbers.

Also Synapse. Synapse Synapse Synapse.

[Hellstar]

That's because you're not using nids right.
Toxin sacs lets your termas cripple and kite melee squads.

I never see melee squads vs marine variants (at least not in T1), except heretics.

You use hormas for ranged squads, preferably in large numbers.

So if I only ever see ranged squads - say tac marines, scouts, csm, etc. - would you recommend a hormagaunt spam?

[egewithin]

Spamming is not hte best thing to do in DoW2. If it pays off, because you are lucky But, if a strategy about Hormas needed, here is one ;

Lictor Alpha + Starting unit Hormo ===> Termigant ===> Hormo Then you need to get Warriors, Pheromones for Lictor Alpha, AdrenelG for Hormos. Warriors provide synaps and Adrenels make Hormos more effective, also power melee and leap into combat from Warriors of cource But Hormos will bleed. As the real point of tactic, use Pheromones of LA. It provides you as a reinforce area where you can easly reinforce every dead Horm. It gives you staying power. Your only problem here is a focus fire on Warriors which will knockback and damage all surranding small nids around. If you see them low, just retreat, let them heal at base. You will spend enough req on reinforce already. Also, in case of flamer untis, go tie them up no matter what. LA can act here. Meanwhilei you can use Termigants as a snare unit for scary heroes like Chaos Lord. And use them as a capping unit. They are not as good as Hormos about it but you can decap a VP while your Hormos fights. It all serves to you.

Do not forget to use Pheromens in the area where you will have the actual fight.

In T2, AdranelG for Warriors this time which means melee synaps. And the second upgrade of Hormos please so you will suffer less on reinforce. They will reinforce 2 at time. You may want to call Genestealers but do not forget that you are in T2 and the enemy can go for a melee walker. Yeah, Dreadnought is not something you can force off with you remaining army. Always carry an anti-vehicle around you. Venom Brood can work here. Combine with ranged synapse and all upgrades of Termiegants to save them from being a third wheel.

[Swift]

I'd recommend focusing melee units with Termagents and absorbing fire with them when the hero is not around. This allows Hormagaunts to close with ranged squads which they'll tear apart with their 20dps a model or something.

[Hellstar]

I guess the problem I've noticed with these guys is the tremendous bleed. After every engagement (win or lose) I have to reinforce every gaunt unit like crazy. And remember, at my level 90% of players play some marine-variant army, so they aren't bleeding at all. It just makes me wonder how you're supposed to win when you are suffering all this attrition and they are not. How do you guys deal with the bleed?

Last game I had several units out capping and was trying to switch between them all as fast as I could, and lost an entire gaunt squad (not a single model left) to a single marine scout grenade. I think the answer is that people play these marine-variant armies for a reason: they are 'OP' at my skill level. I'm not complaining - I think that's by design, and I'm okay with it I guess. If I want to win more, I'll just switch to sm/csm. If I want to play around with an interesting army and have fun, I'll use tyranids or whatever.

[egewithin]

Grenades does that. Not sppecial for Hormors however. Hormos damage should be able to force off a Tacsquad if they have Adrenals. Btw, ignore FC with Hormos. He is too good about killing them. With Warrior synapse it should have worked, whats the problem?

[Narcolepsy]

We'll have a few matches when I'm proper awake man, I've avoided SM mostly up til now so we can try some scenarios.

Nids are (fluff wise) a slightly squishy expendable tide that works like a dream with the buffs/upgrades and are pretty weak without. As fireatwithin says, synapse for the win.

Basic Synapse
Reduces the received ranged and melee damage, and received suppression of non-Warrior, non-hero Tyranids by 20%. Ranged damage reduction is increased to 22%/25%/27% at level 2/3/4. Also increases Tyrant Guard speed by 1.5 and makes Rippers immune to suppression. Radius 32. Passive ability.


Improved Synapse
Allied Tyranid non-hero, non-synapse infantry units in radius 32 have their health increased by 25%, in addition to the basic synapse. Requires the Improved Synapse upgrade. Passive ability.

This is a pretty kickass boost! Tactically speaking I've usually gone for LA + starting horma, 2 x terma then warriors (barbed strangler)/power. I've not considered the pheremones up til now because I'm an idiot, but that's a 30% reduction for ranged. The initial engagement usually ends up with me having to retreat hormas, but the termas are too powerful for most opposition to wipe, particularly with a LA mixing it up. When the warriors come up there's a little ranged blob that now has venom sacks, and if my allies are doing their thing I'm usually off to bash power/cap everywhere.

There's more of us nids, and it's the noise they can't stand. we can be across the map with a scouting gaunt squad making the SM decide to split their force (weaker main army to be eaten by our blob) or chase after a single unit with a bigger force (hello, power bash)

I have no solution for GK though.

[Cyris]

This is all 1v1 advice natch:

A general tip on nids is to avoid fights till you get your first Warrior squad out, and even then make sure you include your commander int he fight. Like when playing eldar, your basic squads usually want to have their "aspect" upgrades before you do a big fight, or at least a T1.5 support unit (shuri or ranger) to help out. AG and Toxin Sacs are pretty much "aspect" upgrades - relatively cheep upgrades that truly unlock a units potential.

General tips:
Lead fights with commander and/or Warrior. Hormas are for followup or counter initiation: if you send them in first you're prolly gonna lose.
Hormas lose to tacs and tics, so don't try it. They are for extra dps, flanking, chasing and ganging up on a weakened unit, not tanking - that's for the Warriors and Commander. Come T2 with AG Warriors this changes a bit, but don't think of them as a melee superiority unit.
While going in first with Warriors makes sense, do consider moving them back out of melee after the initial knock-down charge. If you can open space with the initial attack for hormas, back the warriors up so they preserve hp, then even move them to charge again after the cooldown has ended.
While you may struggle in map control for the first few minutes, once you get some aspect upgrades and a Warrior, you pretty much want to go aggro and stay that was for the ENTIRE MATCH. Nids are a very aggro race, falling back is just a way to regroup for another big push. Focus on out fielding your opponent in T1, then just spamming T2 units all day.
Genestealers are of course amazing vs marines. 80 melee skill, power damage and a heal. Plus the OP AG Warrior buffs. Use em!
While I am not a big Ravaner fan, if they go SUT they can really help out. Make sure you have melee running up to support them, cause they don't do well vs the focus fire they are bound to receive. If possible, attack from multiple sides.
Spam your Red skills - as HT I'm constantly putting up nests in T1, and towers in T2. LA's spore mine callin will straight up win some fights, and RA's Frenzy is nuts on Zoans (who can put their shield up to negate the damage).

As far as specific BO, depends on commanders and counter build and such. Generally, I'll go horma, 2x terma, warrior, aspects and wargear, option Ravaners, then T2. T2 is super reactionary, with the goal of continuing pushing to VP's and gens. Tyrant Guard is a nightmare to deal with if their composition doesn't have the right transitional aspects. Genes for melee domination, Zoans for ranged domination, Venoms as a generally safe and good pick. I like Tyrant as my 2nd T2 purchase, after forcing my enemy into more anti infantry purchases with whatever I opened with.

[Hellstar]

Sounds like incredibly helpful advice. One thing I can't figure out though is how I'm supposed to have enough warriors to lead fights. One certainly won't do it, and it isn't as if you can build multiple ones - they cost too much.

Anyway, thanks. Good food for thought.

[Atlas]

Just go double raveners vs sm, orks and eldar and win every single game. I kid you not, they put out an absolutely absurd level of damage and they have anti-sut built in.

[egewithin]

One Warrior squad is enough for synapse. Because they d onot stack. EG : 2 melee synapse will not give you double buff, it will be only one. But new Warriors with AdrenalG are doing good damage. I like them. But in case of power melee of cource they will struggle. But you just can't ignore other benefits of them.

[Cyris]

I've had good games with one BS Warrior and one AG Warrior. Mixing the AOE suppression with a powerful melee rushdown works quite well.

This especially works well with HT, using the Warrior calldown in T2 to call the 2nd Warrior, since it also reinforces nearby squads. Setup a big fight as soon as you enter T2 and summon this guy in the middle of it. Good times...

[Dark Riku]

As Tyranids you shouldn't have too much trouble versus either SM or Chaos.
Attack moving and targeting the right targets afterwards should do the trick.

Approximate BO on most maps: terma, terma, spore mines (only versus Chaos, possible versus SM, most optimal with HT since it's so much threat that they can't all shoot down), node, warrior (unless HT, then it's optional, can go straight for ranged ravs or w/e), toxin sacks x2, possible adrenal glands, possible ravs, gens somewhere in between, possible extra squad for map CTRL if needed and not having 5 squads out already.

Hormas/wariors take on tacs (csm) or asm (raptors).
Termas shoot down the (shotty) scouts and crippling poison the hero or melee tics.
Move in spore mines versus the tacs/csm, versus chaos you can also shield your ranged blob from heretics with them or try to get into their retreat path to wipe them, 2 blasts wipe a heretic squad without AC.
Ravs can be purchased versus setupteams or as a very bursty ranged squad (most optimal with HT).

As a HT you can go full aggro from the start as you provide basic synapse to all your guys.
Almost impossible to win a first engagement versus a HT. You can get charge versus suppression teams.

As a LA you can single out heroes with your flesh hook and kill them with your blob.
LA hook counters setups with his hook and you can hook unkillable squad leaders to their entire squads deaths ~~

As RA you will have to work with your incredible mobility through tunnels, be active all the time.
Better not to retreat but hop in tunnels, hop out at base, reinforce fast and get back into the field through a tunnel.


Come T2 you get what you need. (Zoa/TG will most of the time be the right choice(s))
Zoa for artillery, staying power (healing aura) and AV snare.
TG for pushing power. It's HI when walking around and changes to vehicle when in shield mode, very difficult for your enemy to deal with.
Especially considering it has a charge too. (remember it's a great escape mechanism)
Venom brood for av and ranged synapse if need be.
Genes for counter melee or melee superiority.

Spam towers in your routes, make a route from your base to the field (if non rav hero).
Optional rippers to counter setups/ranged unit or to snare vehicles.


This should help I hope.

[Hellstar]

Thanks Riku. You meant well. Unfortunately, nothing has helped.

I'm beginning to think the problem is more than just gaunts. Against marine-type armies at least, it seems to be much of the core roster.

I played several times against a guy today. He played GK, and did nothing but spam strike squads. So I did nothing but spam tyranid warriors back at him, and in T2, genestealers. He won. Every time. A-moving a blob of strike squads into my blob of tyranid warriors won.

Of course he did other things around the edges, i.e. upgraded brother-captain, and slammed him into the mix. So I used my hero too. Either way though, strike squads beat warriors, and strike squads plus "other stuff" (bro-cap, purifier) beats warriors + gene stealers + tyranid hero.

Later he stuck a unit with psy-cannon in a building and it was incredibly annoying. So I brought up a tyranid warrior with barbed strangler to take it out. Or so I thought. He won, then jumped out and retreated to heal. He put it back in the building later and I brought up another warrior squad with barbed strangler. Same result.

Now, that's the facts of what happened. Beyond that, I'm not making any strong claims because this was a game situation, not a controlled environment. I wanted to do a purely test game where we'd stick a warrior vs a strike squad 1-on-1 melee in a controlled environment, then do the same for the other situations, but he didn't have time, and I couldn't find any other partners to test with. However, if we just went on the results of the non-controlled environment (real game), I'd say tyranid warriors need buffing against power armor, barbed stranglers need buffing against units in buildings, and perhaps gene stealers need some sort of buff too. I mean, tyranid warriors are supposed to be the power melee weapon weilding, anti-armor unit. They are dedicated melee (unless barbed strangler), they cost power, and they even have heavy armor themselves. This vs. a unit that only costs req (no power), is not dedicated melee, and doesn't have power melee weapons. IT SHOULDN'T BE CLOSE, RIGHT? Beyond that, all I ever hear is "gene stealer this, gene stealer that, awesome melee superiority unit, blah blah." Yeah, well I was pretty underwhelmed. I also discovered another thing. Getting the stupid things into melee unmolested is quite the challenge. Anything shoots at them on the way to their target and they drop models before ever arriving.

If I can find a partner to test with, I plan on doing these tests in a controlled environment, and posting the results if they come up the same way.

[Kentation]

Why does costing power and having power melee make them a dedicated melee unit. Warrior broods are a melee unit with strong support capabilities that will supplement your army.

You could, for instance, go by the reasoning that they need to cost power to prevent them from coming out too early. This becomes more apparent when they provide synapse, which is a pretty good buff for your army composition.

You could also add the fact that they are detector unit, the only detector units in the tyranid faction (I think).

They have also have a larger sight radius then most units, meaning you can observe your enemies' movements, positioning and their defences before they can see you, giving you the an advantage to plan your attack.

My point being, if they had the stats to defeat strike squads, wouldn't you say they are overperforming? They are providing supportive benefits to your army and defeat a strong versatile squad for the price of 300 req and 25 power. Sounds like a bargin. This is without mentioning havinh faster speed of 5.5 and leap into combat disruption.

In future, it would be better if you provided a replay. Other players would highlight problems in your playstyle that you may not have noticed aswell as show you the more optimal ways to approach a certain situations.

[Toilailee]

Play some other races to get some perspective on the match ups (or just play more games in general), there's no real point in over analysing things when you're new to the game. After you get better you'll have a much better understanding on balance and looking back at these posts you'll probably disagree with most of your arguments here.

[Hellstar]

Why does costing power and having power melee make them a dedicated melee unit.

I didn't say that costing power makes them a dedicated melee unit. I didn't say that having power melee makes them a dedicated melee unit. I just said that, at least in their default state, they are a dedicated melee unit, where as strike squad are dual-purpose (melee, ranged).

Costing power was pointing out that they cost more than strike squads. Having power melee was pointing out that it appears as if they should cut through a strike squad's armor.

My point being, if they had the stats to defeat strike squads, wouldn't you say they are overperforming?

Of course not. What else in the tyranid roster, T1, is supposed to defeat strike squads in melee (much less ranged)? Raveners? I doubt it - don't even need to run the test.

I was tentative about my claims earlier because I did not do any tests under controlled circumstances. Now I have, and can post the results. Most of the time, strike squads beat tyranid warriors in melee. Unless there is a good reason for this I hadn't considered, that is categorically insane.

They are providing supportive benefits to your army and defeat a strong versatile squad for the price of 300 req and 25 power. Sounds like a bargin.

They don't beat a hybrid squad in melee that costs only req, that doesn't have power weapons to cut through the heavy armor warriors have, and that have heavy armor susceptible to power weapons of tyranid warriors.

In future, it would be better if you provided a replay. Other players would highlight problems in your playstyle that you may not have noticed aswell as show you the more optimal ways to approach a certain situations.

I would provide one, but you seem to be agreeing that tyranid warriors don't beat strikes, and seem to believe that's fine and dandy, so I don't know what a replay would do for you. My replay is for people who would say "no way that could happen."

[Hellstar]

After you get better you'll have a much better understanding on balance and looking back at these posts you'll probably disagree with most of your arguments here.

Well what's the argument that tyranid warriors should lose to strike squads in melee? Doesn't that seem grossly counter-intuitive, at the very least?

[Vapor]

Warriors are largely a support unit. They provide synapse, melee synapse, detection, and a guaranteed knockback on attack which can be used alongside hormagaunts and your hero to instantly force off an enemy squad. Their damage isn't bad my any means but the fact that they cause synapse bombs upon death means you have to be careful. One thing you can do is to run them in for the initial knockback then pull them back if they get focus fired so they don't drop a model. Hormagaunts can continue to lay on the dps.

[hiveminion]

Warriors are as much a dedicated melee unit as a Strike Squad in that they both aren't one. Comparing their performance in 1v1 combat says pretty much nothing. Generally, you don't want to go melee as Nids vs GK, and certainly not Genestealers.

Gaunts and Gants are cheap, have decent dps, high speed and plenty of passive buffs available to them. That said they bleed a lot and feed fair amounts of xp. It's not easy to explain how to use them properly, just play more games and you'll figure it out. You've already mentioned often that you're a beginner so I really think you should post less balance complaints and play more games to get more experience.

[Hellstar]

Warriors are largely a support unit.

Boy, that's news to me.

The first rule of anything is that things should be intuitive. These things have power melee weapons, heavy armor, and come default melee. You look at that and think "ah, that's the thing I use to melee enemy heavy infantry" (same way banshees are used). You look at the rest of your tier 1 and go "Hormagaunt? Nope, don't use that to melee enemy heavy armor. Termagaunt? Nope, don't use that to melee enemy heavy armor. Ravener? Well it has power weapons but it is frail, has normal armor, and should really only be used to jump in, disrupt, and get out, or maybe take out a lone heavy weapons team. IT MUST BE THE WARRIOR! THAT'S THE TICKET!"

So it looks exactly like a unit that should be used to melee heavy armor. Except that it isn't.

Sometimes, I think things are designed a certain way just to troll people. Somewhere, someone is rolling on the floor laughing.

After this revelation, I'm done with tyranids I guess.

[Hellstar]

Warriors are as much a dedicated melee unit as a Strike Squad in that they both aren't one.

LOL. Would be nice if the tooltip said, in big red letters - "NOT A DEDICATED MELEE UNIT." Oh, I'm sure some of you people think that's obvious. It isn't.

Comparing their performance in 1v1 combat says pretty much nothing.

I've spent decades analyzing balance of various games, and I build mathematical models in my line of work. In other words, I beg to differ with you. I consider 1v1 combat to be the "gold standard" and where balance always starts. Sure, it branches out from there, but it starts with basic 1v1 of every unit with every other unit.

Generally, you don't want to go melee as Nids vs GK, and certainly not Genestealers.

Certainly not genestealers eh? All I ever hear is how awesome they are, how they are a "melee superiority unit," blah blah. Again, it appears one cannot play this game intuitively.

I really think you should post less balance complaints and play more games to get more experience.

Thanks, but I don't particularly care for suggestions like this.

[Torpid]

Fucking frustrating work reading these forums these days.

DOW is so fucked... Never once did we get a proper, high level, community going for this game. Nobody cared enough

[Wise Windu]

Warriors grant Basic Synapse, and since you know this:

These things have power melee weapons, heavy armor, and come default melee

you should know the Synapse exists also, which reduces the incoming damage to allied gaunts by 20% passively, and by default. If that isn't a support option, I don't know what is. The fact that they have such a powerful support ability should imply in some way that they could, potentially, be used for support. And the fact that the death of one model can be so great a disadvantage should back that up.

I just said that, at least in their default state, they are a dedicated melee unit, where as strike squad are dual-purpose (melee, ranged).

I'd say that Warriors are more like melee/melee disruption + support with their melee leap and Synapse. And they have power melee damage. Strike Squad on the other hand have higher melee skill, allowing special attacks.

According to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIql32SLBSM#t=7m10s

Warriors win, although by a small margin, and their health has been lowered by 60 across the whole squad since then. Still not a huge difference, so they shouldn't lose by much 1v1. But they usually shouldn't be fighting alone anyway. And neither should the Strike Squad really.

I've spent decades analyzing balance of various games, and I build mathematical models in my line of work. In other words, I beg to differ with you. I consider 1v1 combat to be the "gold standard" and where balance always starts. Sure, it branches out from there, but it starts with basic 1v1 of every unit with every other unit.

It might be a starting point, but in this game, it should never be the "gold standard", because so much of the game revolves around map-control-economy and efficient engagements. Warriors help to boost that efficiency for Tyranids, and having them roaming around the map by themselves is counter-productive, and counter-intuitive for a race that relies on swarms of creatures and allied proximity (Synapse) to win battles.

Thanks, but I don't particularly care for suggestions like this.

Then you'd prefer theory with a potential lack of knowledge of how the strategy and tactics of the game work? I don't like sounding rude about things like this, but come on, man. RTS games require experience to fully understand. Numbers alone aren't enough to decide what works. Unit positioning, unit movement, economic structuring - all things that need to be taken into account. Sentinels can't just be taken at numerical value. They're always supported by Guardsmen, Marines are supported by an Apothecary, whatever. Unit synergy is important when looking at how RTS games work, and I'd argue it's more important in a game like DoW2, where only a few squads at a time are on the field. Each one is important and has to play some role in your strategy.

[Dark Riku]

Hellstar, just no. Tyranids are such a competitive race, especially versus something like SM's.

Barbed stranglers are like a suppression team for Tyranids. Other suppression teams don't counter garrisons either.
Use zoans for anti garrison or spore mines in certain circumstances.

Warriors are such a big force multiplier for Tyranids, and with the recent buff they got ...

Don't run in your genesteelers head first, ofcourse they will die that way.
They are better used for guard duty, most races have to come to you since you outshoot them with your termagaunts and zoa.
Or swarm them in on a 2nd wave.

Play more games, get accustomed to the game.
Best suggestion here yet, play the other races versus Tyranids and see what happens.
I'd happily play Tyranids versus you to show what to do with them.
Or just look up some older MRT's casts of Tyranids.

[Hellstar]

I'm not arguing balance here per se (I'm qualified to do it, but it's another discussion). I mean yeah, I was arguing balance when I was under the misguided notion that a tyranid warrior's role was melee anti- heavy infantry (hmmm... wonder where I could have gotten that idea?). But if you say that's not its role, balance arguments stop there, and another argument altogether starts.

What I am arguing is that things should be intuitive and make sense on a basic level, and somebody coming in from the outside should be able to figure out roles and such pretty quickly by just looking at units.

You want a "support" unit? Here's your support unit:

- Name changed: from "warrior" to "supporter."
- Rationale: First principles are things like intuitiveness, simplicity, common sense, etc. "Warrior" strongly connotes something that is a fighter, most likely a core unit (i.e. Tau fire warriors). It most definitely does not connote "support." Naming a support unit a "warrior" makes about as much sense as giving a warrior a support unit name. If a tyranid warrior is supposed to be support, naming it "warrior" is in fact doing nothing but trolling players who aren't "in the know."

- Removed: power melee weapon.
- Rationale: Giving power melee weapons to a "support" unit makes about as much sense as... I dunno... any dumb thing you could possibly think of. Why not give power weapons to zoanthropes as well? Again, you couldn't troll the player who isn't "in the know" any harder if you wanted to. If these things aren't melee warriors intended to duke it out in melee with heavy infantry, then why equip them as such?

- Removed: melee weapon.
- Rationale: Having a melee weapon at all implies that the unit should be used in melee. But it is a support unit. Why make it complicated? Do you really want these things in physical melee combat?

- Compensation: choose any of
1. Cost reduction
2. HP increase
3. New default ranged weapon - "barb-less choker." Possible AOE/splash, but non-suppressive. Upgradable to barbed strangler.

DONE, and it took me all of 3 minutes. No charge - it's a free service. You guys figure out the numbers, but there's your basic concept for a support unit. What worries me is how many more units across how many more races I no doubt need to redesign in order to make sense.

Look, it isn't a bad thing to make a mistake - it's human. The bad thing is defending the mistake when it's pointed out, clinging to the mistake in some stubborn attempt to "be right," and attacking the messenger.

[Hellstar]

According to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIql32SLBSM#t=7m10s

Warriors win, although by a small margin, and their health has been lowered by 60 across the whole squad since then. Still not a huge difference, so they shouldn't lose by much 1v1.

I was able to conduct a test under controlled conditions after my initial post regarding this. Warriors lose, I can post the results if needed.

having them roaming around the map by themselves is counter-productive, and counter-intuitive for a race that relies on swarms of creatures and allied proximity (Synapse) to win battles.

As a melee anti- heavy infantry unit? Disagree. As a support unit? I agree. The point is, we have no fundamental disagreement here, the difficulty was the confusion over what this stupid thing is supposed to be. I'm not a dumb guy I can promise you. Yet I played tyranids for weeks and never figured any of this out. How much do you think a new player coming in will ever figure out, and if he ever does figure it out, how much time do you think it will take?

I don't like sounding rude about things like this, but come on, man.

No worries at all. I haven't taken anything you've said here (or anywhere else) to be rude. You have every right to defend your position or say what you believe, and do it strongly, but as long as no personal attacks were involved, we can shake hands at the end of it and call it a day. A few posters on this forum can learn from your example

[Narcolepsy]

I think after playing you with marines (and losing- partly my fault, partly my team mates fault, partly you guys played well ) I would say that it's not a balance thing. To be fair, after we had the chat and I said "just jump on them with stuff" I did that to a GK player and he MINCED me. GG. It's not a tactic that I should have used, as he had supporting units that swung it.

It's not as simple as this unit beats this unit so that's how it's always gonna be.

What I noticed about your play in our game was there was the HT plus two or three warrior units. As the warrior buffs don't stack, it seemed a bit excessive when you could have been putting out ravs (better in melee and ranged) or stomping up to T2 while I was saving to get ASM to deal with your stranglers. Your partner had the right idea, he teched straight to bloodcrusher when he saw we were miles behind on resources, and that made me spend on a rocket launcher tac. HE dictated the game flow. Also if you're HT, the brood nests are awesome. IF you can stick one in a fairly safe place close-ish to the frint line, you reinforce faster than our opponent, getting the edge. Anyway, idea for GK.

Make a tanky HT (crushing claws at T2) and venom brood/zoan/ranged ravs. Smash in with HT, shoot with other guys. I dunno, maybe it'll work- but you'll only get to try it if you get T1 map control down.

we're still learning holmes

[egewithin]

You want a "support" unit? Here's your support unit:

What I am arguing is that things should be intuitive and make sense on a basic level, and somebody coming in from the outside should be able to figure out roles and such pretty quickly by just looking at units.

- Name changed: from "warrior" to "supporter."
- Rationale: First principles are things like intuitiveness, simplicity, common sense, etc. "Warrior" strongly connotes something that is a fighter, most likely a core unit (i.e. Tau fire warriors). It most definitely does not connote "support." Naming a support unit a "warrior" makes about as much sense as giving a warrior a support unit name. If a tyranid warrior is supposed to be support, naming it "warrior" is in fact doing nothing but trolling players who aren't "in the know."

- Removed: melee weapon.
- Rationale: Having a melee weapon at all implies that the unit should be used in melee. But it is a support unit. Why make it complicated? Do you really want these things in physical melee combat?

What are you talking about, what kind of stupidness is this? I doesn't make any sense, it doesn't work, it is not usefull... Oh what am I talking about to you anyway? I even do not write down your other useless and ignorant arguments here since we all they are a waste of time. Okay, you don't like Warriors? Fine. Ignore the fact that every Tyranid player uses them and knows them as a go to unit, fine. Lets see how much you can stay on the field without synaps support and a counter for flamer Tacs.

Oh, they can't counter a setup team? What about buying some Raveners or abilitys of heroes. Yeah, you get them by paying some resource in the warger screen. Myabe you don't know it yet. You know, Raveners made for countering set up teams not Warriors. And why on the earth a Warrior must walk through a set up team and smash it? Even I can't do it with FC ( Force Commander ), who da heck are those Warriors that you think they should? Oh, because they called Warriors? Let me tell you something young boy, there is a thin line between heroism and stupidness. No Warrrior ( not only nids, every kind of warrior on this world ) ever going to uses himself as a damage sponge and dies because no warrior is idiot.

And I don't care they loose Strike squad in melee ( which I don't belive yet, need replay ) because you can easly focus fire them and kill. Insted of using this forum as a crying wall, go figure out solutions! Even there are no hard counter for GK Termies as Apo, I can still force them off with my experiance and skill- oh sorry you don't have one of those do you? Yeah you said it before. But I don't really need you to say it to me, you ignorant arguments easly explains what kind of noob you are, thank you.

And you clearly don't have a clue about biggest mistakes of this game it seems. How many times I have seen an unsupported GUO goes ahead to a well prepared army and dies?.. They can't take down Strike Squad in 1v1? What about helping them. Because you can force off ever alone Terminators with GK in T1. Just focus fire at them. Not only ranged, in melee too! Why am I have to say this to you my dear?

Also, as the members of this forum we are helping to new players in their problems, they are listening us and feeding from our knowlege. And if all members of this forum says you are wrong and even Hiveminion, most experianced nid player I know, says you are wrong, you have to stop and seek the problem at your self. Also, you are talking too much and writing down unnecessery arguments.