How to counter FotM Wraithguard as IG?

[Ruthless at Heart]

Hey guys - I just got done playing two games against Tex's Warlock. Both games went the same way and ended in extremely close games in Tex's favor. I dominated T1 through mid-T2 with a pretty sizable advantage. However, the tides slowly turn once he gets Wraithguard in combination with gates. The new FotM makes it pretty hard to tie them up even with a hero, since they just walk towards my guardsmen line and shoot into them still.

Part of the problem is I think my composition just isn't great for it - usually I get into T2 with 2x Sent 2x Guardsmen and 1x Artillery Spotter. In T2 I get Ogryns and/or Manticore to counter the WG, but clever use of gates and Shuris for Ogryns limit my effectiveness, since I always have to charge into the WG of course.

I'm not saying that the FotM WG is OP at all (way too early to tell), but just want to hear people's thoughts on how to counter. I'm extremely new to playing IG at a high level. Also, I'm playing the LG specifically. Thanks for your thoughts.

Ruthless at Heart

[Hellstar]

Ha! A wraithguard? Try playing against 4 of them. They killed 2 carnifexes of mine outright, killed the rest of my army, then killed my teammate's entire army too. And get this... they've actually been nerfed.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1853

[DandyFrontline]

Ha! A wraithguard? Try playing against 4 of them. They killed 2 carnifexes of mine outright, killed the rest of my army, then killed my teammate's entire army too. And get this... they've actually been nerfed.

http://dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1853

Hmm.. i had several times a situation with 3 WG's, shuriken and some DA, when i used to play IG - commissar with stubborn and claw + ogrins deal with WG's, new 75 energy Manticore force shuriken to retreat, GM's are mostly like for increasing LC Stubbornes buff (but also they can provide really nice damage to WG's with their plasma - just need to micro them or move them in melee, so WG's just have no units to shoot at)

Still, i agree that WG's spam is pretty annoying

[Wise Windu]

Ha! A wraithguard? Try playing against 4 of them. They killed 2 carnifexes of mine outright, killed the rest of my army, then killed my teammate's entire army too. And get this... they've actually been nerfed.

http://dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1853

You say in that other thread:

All he had was 1 banshee squad, 1 hero, and the wraithguards.

If that's the case, there really is no way he should have won, Wraithguards or not, assuming you had a decently sized army as you said. Before the WGs start coming out, if the Chaos player still had an army, double him, crush him, cap all of the VPs, and continually force them off with your superior squad count and economy.

And if you know you're that far ahead in everything, just pump out another T2 squad to solidify that, preferably a melee squad - genestealers, which Torpid mentioned in that thread as well - to tie up the Wraithguard. No reason to go T3 at that point. Then go to T3 if you even need to, buy a Thornback Carnifex, charge into his Wraithguard, keep forcing him off and let the VPs count down. Or just spam Genestealers and do the same thing while charging in with your Hive Tyrant's Extended Carapace.

Tbh, it sounds like you either misplayed, or you weren't as far ahead as you thought you were. Hard to tell without the actual replay file.

I don't play IG really, so can't respond to OP's post, sorry Ruthless.

[egewithin]

Wraithguard =====> get melee

Wraithguard + Banshees ======> get more melee and out melee it. Melee it so hard that Khorne will give you a mark.

Wraithguard + Banshees + Shrunkens =======> Walking melee tanks. And ever more melee with it.

Wraithguard + Banshees + Shrunkens + Fire Prisim =========> GG WP

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Wraithguard =====> get melee

Wraithguard + Banshees ======> get more melee and out melee it. Melee it so hard that Khorne will give you a mark.

Wraithguard + Banshees + Shrunkens =======> Walking melee tanks. And ever more melee with it.

Wraithguard + Banshees + Shrunkens + Fire Prisim =========> GG WP

^^^

This right here. This guy gets it. XD

[Corrie]

Do you have the replay ruthless? I want to see how that matchup plays out on the new patch not really had any ig bs eldar games lately,

It used to be all about adapting to the eldar plays I always tried to stay away from investing in my guardsman due to all the aoe Farseer and warlock can throw even without the WG, LG does well in this matchup compare to the others because of the suppression immunity and heals

Did you try ogryns into assault storm troops grenades? It used to work well even before WG speed reduction?

[enasni127]

i usually try to out-melee wraith guard too - and i fail to do so like ruthless. ogryns are (still, after all these patches...) close to useless cause they can't break supression or get immunity to knock back while charging AND are still to expensive (reinforcing cost is same as ork nobs i think). usually ogryns just get supressed and then shot to pieces no matter in which match up. i only find them useful vs tyranids in some cases.

wraith guards on the other hand are still quite cheap for that big amount of hitpoints, immunity to supression and knock back PLUS a crazy damage. i know they got some nerfs but actually they are still easy mode vs ig.

some guy here on the forums said he uses lord general sniper rifle + mass range units and carapace armor vs eldar using wraith guard and tries to outrange them. i think this is a good plan and i'm looking forward to try that myself cause melee my melee attempts just fail as soon as wg's take the first shot.

[ytimk]

Just looking at the Codex:
WG are HI,
Catas do powermelee;
Powermelee good vs HI.

Are Catas not mentioned as WG counter/deterent (?)because of their bleed under ranged fire?

[egewithin]

Orgryns ( Nobody really cares about how true this writing is ) needs support in case of supperession than.

Lord Commisar can just kill the Sergant and rebuy it, if the loose a model, the will reinforce by a pretty unpractical way. But I do that Or a flare from Lord Commisar?

For Lord General; Stand Firm can be effective. Tie up Wraith Guard with Orgryns and shoot with everything else directly to Banshees. Or you can out range them with Sniper Rifle? Can it work? Grenade Launcher speed buff useful for a hit and run tactic but not the best way to do it. At worst, go for damage decrease armor and tank it

Inquisitor can infiltrate Orgryns. If rangers, use the armor that puts units insade of golden cups.

[Atlas]

Inquisitor can infiltrate Orgryns. If rangers, use the armor that puts units inside of golden cups.

Honestly, if there was a design issue with the Inq (besides awesome sauce Banewolves) it's that the Excruciators are just that much better than her Interrogator's Armor and Purgatus. The former is actually fine in terms of balance while the later is just too expensive and in T3 which is rare enough in 1v1. It's just that Assail is SO good that it's hard to justify not getting it for it's price.

Really though, WG haven't changed as much as people might have thought they did. WG is just that perfect combo of super tough units with a good damage type and area that IG in general struggles with.

[Vapor]

Well, there's no doubt that beating WG as IG feels like an uphill battle. But the tools are there, even if they are hard to use. You need to poke and prod the WG a bit with your ranged units. GM (plasma guns if you need them) and assault kit storm stroopers both outrange and outrun WG, which means you can kite them pretty effectively if your micro is good enough to stay out of range. Then the name of the game is to get in your enemy's head and fuck with them, because you do have some ways to shut down WG if you play your cards right:

- hero force melee
- spotter smoke (cata smoke is also ok)
- retreating your gm if they're about to get blasted, then breaking retreat
- assault kit storm troopers (yeah they're awesome)

And the heroes also have a bunch of tools:

- excruciators on INQ
- inspire terror on LC to kill the warlock leader if he bought it, if he didn't then you will still damage them and reduce their damage by 50% for 15 seconds
- suppression immunity from LC/LG on catas/ogryns/GM
- sniper rifle on LG

...so yeah. I'm not trying to say the matchup is balanced or whatever, but the tools are there at least. As an eldar player I've never really found IG to be an easier matchup than most others, but that is partially because gm+sent can be such a bully in the early game.

[Bahamut]

Orgryns ( Nobody really cares about how true this writing is ) needs support in case of supperession than.

Lord Commisar can just kill the Sergant and rebuy it, if the loose a model, the will reinforce by a pretty unpractical way. But I do that Or a flare from Lord Commisar?

For Lord General; Stand Firm can be effective. Tie up Wraith Guard with Orgryns and shoot with everything else directly to Banshees. Or you can out range them with Sniper Rifle? Can it work? Grenade Launcher speed buff useful for a hit and run tactic but not the best way to do it. At worst, go for damage decrease armor and tank it

Inquisitor can infiltrate Orgryns. If rangers, use the armor that puts units insade of golden cups.

what happens if the match gets balanced enough that both players get to t3 and seer council is out? bye bye ogryms...

Ogryms are as good counter to WG as shooting vehicles down with plasma damage in my experience

[egewithin]

what happens if the match gets balanced enough that both players get to t3 and seer council is out?

focus fire?

[Tex]

This might be a touch off topic, but the only things I go to T3 for as eldar is the avatar and fire prism, as well as access to wraithbone healing and falcon shield... and I view all of these things as luxury.

Seer council have let me down too many times to make these guys into a backbone of my play, and I don't ever seem to get full use out of D-cannons unless I am playing the farseer.

I think an IG player might as well be happy if he sees his opponent build a seer council squad.

[Dark Riku]

Unless that player is Hans with a warlock, then everyone cries :'(

[Asmon]

As Eldar vs IG you don't need to go T3 at all anyway. It's at best a luxury and most of the time a bad move.