Storm shield over-performing in team games

[Superhooper01]

The last 5 force commanders i have faced in elite have all used storm shield. Now this war-gear has always been strong in team games solely due to it affecting team mates armies as well as yours so even ork's and nid's get the blue circles with the defend ability is activated by the FC. Now the fact people are spamming tacs and shit in tier 1 is bad enough but when a FC player gets the Armour that increases his energy thats when he becomes a pain. I'm not even sure what to focus fire anymore the FC?tac's?scout's?.

Last game i was war-boss and had 2 fully upgrades shoota's and slugga's with burners and storm boys. My opponent had to tac's and 2 scout-gun scouts. If i tryed to shoot down the fc he would pop defend and neglect a huge amount of damage on himself and his troops. I tried shooting the scouts but he just put them behind a shot blocker and started peeling off models from my shoota's and when i used now im angry and the storm-boy jump along with a flank from my slugga's he simply shotgunned my stormboy's and force melee on them where they were wreaked he then tied up my war-boss with his fc and shoot down the slugga's even with hard boys on them they didnt make a dent and all this time the 2 fully upgraded shoota's have managed to do nothing to any unit due to the 50%.. im sorry 50% percent damage reduction and ofc if i get loota's he will just pop defend and dps them down... didnt matter anyway as his team mate doubled my power and when my ally send help the fact defend spreads to allies we were unable to do jack shit.

Its hard enough to bleed sm as it is as people will say just bleed the scouts....well a great sm player can keep his scouts out of harms way and with defend it becomes just painful to try and inflict bleed or any sort of win against a blob of shit.

Can we at least see it not affect ally armies. Why does it grant suppression resistance along with the 50% damage reduction?
Im aware a lot of the players on elite are sm players so i dont mind taking some heat from this post but im not saying sm op just why is this war-gear so strong in team games atm. Some of the best players i know are simply running it every game i play in now and im getting pretty sick of the tac spam with defend as well as being unable to counter with 2 set up teams or jump troops.

[egewithin]

I used to read a comment when first DoW2 realised even before Chaos Rising ; '' Apo will always loose to a well played Force Commander even he is a better hero. '' So, before I enter an argument about FC, I generally remember this line. His Defend buff looks too powerfull in the hands of real good players it seems. Here are some problems I have seen so far;

- It's not allowing me to a fast charge into the combat as another player. I think it can be just like Lord Generals buffs, only effects his own units.
- The effect is too strong if you have more infantry ( doesn't matter what they are ) then your enemy in early T1.
- Tac spam unfairly good with it. In a match, they needed 2 armys to force me off.
- Very hard for FC to level up.

So I say lets just make it effect his own units. Btw, can we also talk about adding knockback ressistence? Acceptible or not?

[Hellstar]

I don't know enough about war gear to comment on storm shield. I'll just say that marine variant races (sm, chaos, gk) are the OP races in this game, period, paragraph, end of story.

This is no exaggeration. My in-game performance has literally gone up by several thousand percent since I started playing marine variants. I couldn't win a game before, no matter how hard I tried, no matter how much I played, no matter what I did. But the very second I switched to marines, not even knowing how to play them or what to build, I started raping face.

I don't know about other skill level, but at my skill level (low, noob, whatever), over 90% of all games I play are just marines vs. marines. Today I played for about 6 hours straight and didn't see a single other race, just marine, marine, marine, marine, marine.

People play marine variants for a reason.

EDIT: One of the last times I played tyranids (perhaps for good, heh) I played against a force commander. He solo'd my hero, killed him, then solo'd a carnifex right after and killed it. He then messaged me and said "I'm laughing so hard right now." I just mashed quit.

I think the stupid chaos lord is way OP too. I hate him more than any other hero, but FC is close 2nd.

[Torpid]

Go to sleep Hellstar. An FC can't solo a carnifex. Especially after soloing a hero too.

[Crewfinity]

I don't know enough about war gear to comment on storm shield. I'll just say that marine variant races (sm, chaos, gk) are the OP races in this game, period, paragraph, end of story.

Way to keep things on topic

HI races are generally percieved as "beginner races" for several reasons. They are by far the more favorite from a fan basis, and people tend to start out in this game with the races they are most familiar with. so there's a general bias towards SM and chaos because they're simply popular as a faction, rather than any balance reason. The HI races also tend to have fewer squads on the field, so usually less micro is required. this means that more amateur players can hit a higher skill cap with these races due to not having to worry about tons of units and focusing more closely on each squad he has. however once you start to become familiar with the game and understanding the mechanics, other races become just as viable, and you'll realize that your observations here are simply due to your inexperience painting your perceptions. All factions are competitive to a high level, as seen in any of the recent tournaments where you see a good representation of all factions. play more, watch more casts, read the codex, and improve that way rather than making sweeping hyperbolic statements about game balance while simultaneously proclaiming your ignorance of the game.


Back to topic:

I agree with Hooper's analysis. in 1v1 its a powerful wargear, but rather niche. but in team games the buff to allies as well as your own units really puts this wargear over the top. its incredibly difficult to push against a team using this ability a lot and pushing together. The energy decrease is helping prevent abuses of the wargear like turning it on and off on demand, but i agree that the ability should be exclusive to the FC's army. there's just very few ways to counter 2 full armies with 50% damage reduction walking right up your lane

[Cyris]

This has come up before, and my stance is the same: it should work only on your army.

There a number of things in team games that are in my mind unreasonably buffed up in power by working on allies. I think build orders in 3v3 would be opened up by some of these over preforming wargears/abilities to be army selfish. Storm Shield is a perfect example of this. It's a nich but very solid choice in 1v1, and way over the top in 3v3.

[Crewfinity]

This has come up before, and my stance is the same: it should work only on your army.

There a number of things in team games that are in my mind unreasonably buffed up in power by working on allies. I think build orders in 3v3 would be opened up by some of these over preforming wargears/abilities to be army selfish. Storm Shield is a perfect example of this. It's a nich but very solid choice in 1v1, and way over the top in 3v3.

Same with Warboss bosspole IMO. especially because that buff can stack with two bosspoles and make 2 entire armies 100% suppression resistant.

[Swift]

Guys guys guys, you're all deluded. The problem is ASM are so OP because they solo my Warriors and Genestealers all the time. Power armour is is so OP the power melee needs to be redesigned, the disruption is bullshit because SM are already too good. If we nerfed ASM it would be a fix to the most broken faction and Storm shield wouldn't be a problem anymore because you know, ASM nerfs and shit. I can't believe all you people have played the game so long and can't see this blatant fact.

[ytimk]

Come on people, I know its grating when new players/fluff fanatics get dramatic crying OP over every fucking thing ugh, but be nice and over time people can understand.

If you cant be nice, parody posting like above is pretty sweet .



Sidebar: all team game balance whingers can now see how much complex shit the mods have to deal with when trying to get things right eg races sharing buffs/buff stacking DURRR ITS SO EASY WHY NO BALANCE DUHH.

[Bahamut]

totally disagree with the OP

The storm shield is quite powerful yes, but taking that away from FC is is just dumb.. you get TM helping the whole team with beacon, all reinforce points reinforcing the whole team, None shall fall from the LC... so why not the storm shield? taking away synergies from the game is just that, taking away stuff. It's not like it's a godmode...

Same with Warboss bosspole IMO. especially because that buff can stack with two bosspoles and make 2 entire armies 100% suppression resistant.

without movement speed penalty BTW

[Superhooper01]

Wow slow down im not saying fc op im just trying to say his defend ability on allies is nuts. Plus the suppression immunity with the damage reduction makes bleeding models and focusing fire pretty ineffective ESPECIALLY IN TIER 1. That last bit the underline point here:p

[Dark Riku]

I don't know enough about war gear to comment on storm shield.

Then don't comment as this topic is about the wargear ...

I'll just say that marine variant races (sm, chaos, gk) are the OP races in this game, period, paragraph, end of story.

HA, no.

This is no exaggeration.

like hell it is!

People play marine variants for a reason.

No shit Sherlock. They are the poster boys of 40K.

This stupidity has to stop.


As for the topic:
This is 3v3 you're talking about, (crazy) combo's are a thing in his game mode.
What's the incentive to working together with others if your abilities don't affect them?
And yes, I know some abilities don't, but that's their design.
Wouldn't make sense for Synapse to work on non allied Nids
Would confuse the crap out of enemies if synapse bombs don't go off since they are allied Tyranids.
Wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for most Chaos stuff since they are selfish bastards
Etc

That's my view on 3v3.

I don't see the wargear doing anything OTT in 1v1's. Changing the performance too much might make it redundant in 1v1.
Most of the time you see power swords/hammers already anyway.

[Hellstar]

This is no exaggeration.

like hell it is!

Honestly now, how would you know? You've never seen me play a game. I've seen me play every game I've played. Are you qualified to comment on my gameplay and how it might have gone up or down?

People play marine variants for a reason.

No shit Sherlock. They are the poster boys of 40K.

Oh sure. Out of every single game played online, this one game is special, and has a special community around it. Out of all gameplayers in the world, dow2 players won't play the OP race because it is OP. They are better than that.

Yeah, keep deluding yourself Sherlock. When I was struggling to not get facerolled every game, I can't count the number of times players told me "Just play a marine race bro - that's what everyone else does to win. That's what I do." Finally I took the advice. It worked better than I ever imagined. The difference in results and win-rates is ridiculous.

I never saw GK played until after 2.4. Not a single time. Now I see them as opponents online, and when I ask "why do you play them" people say "Haven't you read the forums? They're OP bro - get with the program!"

But I guess you magically know that I am lying. I guess I have nothing else better to do.

This stupidity has to stop.

I have no dislike for you, and enjoy watching your games on casts, but just because you don't like what I say doesn't mean it is lie, and doesn't mean it is "stupidity."

[Swift]

Hellstar look, you're arguing with one of the biggest, baddest, bestest of them all SM players out there right now, and as much as you think he's deluded, you have to remember who has more experience here. It makes perfect sense to you that SM and all marines are OP, because they have power armour, don't bleed, etc. But when you factor in your skill level and then his, of course it seems that way. Riku has spent much more time in game figuring out the weaknesses of these power armoured factions, where as for someone like you who is new they have the illusion of being OP because you have yet to understand how to fight them.

I know you think I'm a fascist bigot whatever, but your posts are ridiculous int he extreme because you take your view and shut out everyone elses. Take it from the pros that there is a way to play that you haven't cracked yet, no matter how wrong it seems, and go with it, because if it works at the high levels, it's probably right. The reason everyone on this forum seems to take exception to what you right is because, to put it bluntly, you write with the utmost ignorance and seem to blindly refuse any help you get. This is what Riku means when he talks of stupidity, you're new, it's all rather daunting to lose and then get told that what destroyed you isn't OP, but accept it and move on.

I'll stop trolling you on these forums from now on, it's not getting either of us anywhere good and I'll try to help in any way I can. But just open your eyes for a bit, not everything that beats you is OP, there are always ways to win.

[Hellstar]

Hellstar look, you're arguing with one of the biggest, baddest, bestest of them all SM players out there right now

But arguing with him on what?

- On how to play the game correctly? ANSWER: NO.

- On what my own experience was/is? ANSWER: YES. Going from literally 0 winrate, to "pretty good" winrate instantaneously by simply switching races. Being told by like 100 people "just play the OP race like we do man." Etc.

- On whether or not it might be possible that people like to play what they perceive as the "OP race" vs. the race that is the poster child for the game? ANSWER: YES. Because people have told me just that, and it works that way in other games, so is it really such an outrageous proposition?

I don't argue with Riku over his expert domain. Why would I be that stupid? Of course he knows how to play the game better than I do. Of course he could beat me like a red-headed stepchild if we were to play. But does that give him magical knowledge on what my winrates were before and after switching races? Does it make him know what more than 100 other people have told me based on their perceptions ("just play the OP race like we do man, and profit!")? Does it make him know that in every other game out there, people don't flock to the perceived OP race?

Who attacked who and called who stupid? If his opinion is that marines are just fine, would it surprise you to know that I respect that opinion? That I don't consider it "stupid?" But by the same token, is it totally unheard of, or completely outrageous, to contemplate that they might be OP? Does it have to be that everyone who contemplates that or has that perception is an utter moron?

I know you think I'm a fascist bigot whatever, but your posts are ridiculous int he extreme because you take your view and shut out everyone elses.

Really? Let's be honest here. Exactly who is taking who's view here, and shutting out everyone else's? I simply posted my view, then I was attacked, called stupid, etc. But did I do that to anyone else? Do you have an objective bone in your body?

The reason everyone on this forum seems to take exception to what you right is because, to put it bluntly, you write with the utmost ignorance...

Right. Because what I said, quite honestly and objectively, *HAS* to be the utmost ignorance. It's like from the Andromeda galaxy. It's like the babblings of someone in a lunatic asylum, right?

The reason "everyone" on this forum takes exception to whatever I write is because they are human beings, and if it's anything most human beings hate, it is someone who thinks for his self and doesn't conform to the party line. Most human beings also hate anybody who expresses any opinion they don't happen to like or agree with.

I'll stop trolling you on these forums from now on...

I'd appreciate that, and it would go an appreciable way towards making the place less toxic, and cluttering up threads with useless bickering and arguments.

[egewithin]

you're arguing with one of the biggest, baddest, bestest of them all SM players out there right now, and...

And he has a very cute and charming face. You can't ignore this. Also Hellstar, you don't really have to answer everything about you. Just say okay and move on.

Also, Riku pointed on a really good thing. Team matches needs team work and other buffs should effect each other. In that case, we should only focus on buffs it self. It seems like it grants too much durability. In that case, only 50% incoming damage decrease can have a rework. Only SM itself will suffer from that but a Tyranid mate with this buff is very very hard to force off it looks like.

[Dark Riku]

How do I know Hellstar? From your forum posts. If your micro and understanding of the game was any good, you would not post the things you post.
I'm not "liking" your posts because you're posting things that, to summarize it, just aren't true.

The 1v1 games are still up for offer.


Can we let the thread continue about the intended topic now please? The FC Storm Shield.


Edit since you guys posted again in the meantime:
The problem is not that you were expressing your opinions, you are making statements about any HI race being OP on any skill level and other such things.

[Sub_Zero]

Hellstar, you are probably right that people are inclined to use the most OP things to get an unfair advantage. It happens so in most shooters I play. But this game is way WAY WAY more complicated than any shooter. Play every single race, master it. This game is all about MUs. Only when you have THE FULL PICTURE (played every single hero against any other single hero for a respectable amount of time) your observations will get closer to the real truth.

And about your point that your win ratio increased. What if I tell you that you found the suitable race for you? What if I tell you that you became just better? What if I tell you that you were lucky to meet incredible noobs? There are tons of factors that may influence on your perception. It is so tempting to call a thing OP or UP just because you were stomped by it/couldn't find a use for it. You shouldn't allow your emotions to prevail over your rational thinking.

I play SM myself. Why? I just like them. I love the concept of super-humans who overcome the deadliest horrors that the galaxy offers. Every ability of theirs seems so inspirational. The way assault marines furiously throw about these scary monsters. The way tactical marines all of a sudden make a stand and defeat the foes they wouldn't defeat if it weren't for the scars they obtained during battles and their resolve. As an apothecary heals troops at the very last moment causing everything surrounding them to fall down for none can stand before the righteous warriors. I adore their noble looks, they are truly holy knights. And whenever I see that someone commands his space marines incompetently and allows them to die it really pains me to watch. And when I emerge victorious in the most dire situations there is no greater feeling that I can get from playing this game, shivers go down my spine because I understand that here and now I and my battle brothers make a feat in the glory of the mankind. Now you do understand that my attraction to them is something more than just a desire to have an edge over weaker races (if we consider them OP, just like you do). But despite my great love to the faction I always remain reasonable when it comes to balance. I perfectly understand that even chances are the best thing in any competitive game. And sometimes when you know that your chances are lower by default and you win it is also one of the great feelings. And I bet that every veteran of this game and a fan of the universe bases on these principles when it comes to choosing his main race. New players who are not interested in the lore do indeed listen to what the majority alike them says and they choose the most OP faction whose OP status is very alleged. Such players are not to stay for long here...

ON TOPIC:
This wargear isn't the only thing that can potentially break the balance of a team game. There are many combinations. We must list them and try to think of a way to reduce their effectiveness in team games at the same time not touching their performance in 1 v 1 games. If it is technically doable then I am all for it. But taking into account all the nasty combos and fixing them may prove a very hard task. It is complicated enough to balance this game as it is, adding new factors will only complicate it further. And yes, removing something completely (read - not making it affect allies) is not the way everyone wants.

[Jes]

I never saw GK played until after 2.4.

It took me literally a minute to find: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISUqJTRmZc0
And this was from 2.1!

So what does that say about the rest of your COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY ANECDOTAL arguments?

[Hellstar]

I never saw GK played until after 2.4.

It took me literally a minute to find: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISUqJTRmZc0
And this was from 2.1!

So what does that say about the rest of your COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY ANECDOTAL arguments?

I'm talking about me playing online, moron. I never versed a gk online until after 2.4.

What on earth is wrong with you people? Is this place just infested with trolls or morons or something? Anyone else want to jump on the bandwagon or join the shark feeding frenzy? Why is this such a big deal? You can't tolerate that someone has a view you don't like? Does it give you heartburn or something? I honestly don't care all that much what you believe or think. Why do you care so much what I believe or think?

Yeah, I think marines are OP. I also think my friend's girlfriend is ugly, while others think she's hot. I also like the rain because it cools things off, but the rest of my friends hate rain. Is it such a big deal? Get the fuck over it! I've dropped it for Christ's sake. I'm only responding now because morons won't leave it alone and keep attacking.

Do you see me arguing the position any more (not that I ever "argued" it so much to begin with, I just stated it)? Do you see me trying to change anyone's mind on it? So can we just drop it?

EDIT: Did I ask for marines to be nerfed? NO. Did I ask for other races to be buffed against them? NO. My comment was directed to the OP. I was basically saying "I don't know about wargear, but on your general theme of having problems against marines, I feel you brother."

[Swift]

Can we just get this locked now?