Chaos vs SM matchup

[Max_Damage]

These two replays caught my eye.

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=305289
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=305291

-first of all, i d like to note how ridiculous scout snipers are in this matchup. Completely imba. Threre s no counter to the snipers from chaos side.
-tacs always been pwning CSM on tier 1. Tacs have too much HP. If you remember, at one point the tacs had 990 hp in retrib
-advanced targeting is much better on the devs then the havok autocannon. Chaos didnt bother upgrading to the autocannon because that would mean losing supression. It is as a matter of fact a downgrade, at least in 1v1.
-then, SM have unfair capping advantage with 6.5 speed scouts and 1.5 cap speed tacs.
-imo in both games CL was kinda negligeble past the first 10 minutes. Thats because he has one dimentional tactics and gear. Absolutely left mouse button melee hero that will lose to a proper warboss anyway and ofc doesnt get heavy melee weapons. Or get kited to infinity. Also, low alpha damage on his melee weapons. Bad killing potential, even with the claws. Sure, maul does 150 dmg per hit but its not power melee or heavy melee. Even BC has + speed default ability and the nemesis halberd does 125 damage per hit on AOE! instead of claw's 100 damage on 1 target. Wit h teleporter pack..
-Noise marines fail to scale in any sort of effective way in T2. using them in T2 with vanilla weapons puts great risk of unit loss because it still has 1000 hp and it still doesnt have melee resistance aura or supression/entanglement to keep the foes away.
-FC switching weapons "because he can/didnt like the previous one". All FC weapons are extremely powerful and useful. Unlike CL's
-Overabundance of av from SM side but not from chaos side.
-Sorry i still dont like the chaos dreadnought. Two were lost on the second game. 1000 hp is an unneccessary punishment. Either that, or vanilla dread needs a useful ability.
-Whirlwind. I dont know what to think about this one but free knockback 24/7 without any sort of friendly fire over huge 2 screens away AoE sounds super imba . Bad unit design. Weirdboy does friendly fire. Whirlwind is a unicorn of units
-raptors? hmm they managed to rout SM a couple of times but they last too little and cant jump twice. Look, when it comes to the units it seems to me that the idea was "chaos unit is like SM unit but worse"

The games were kind of even until the very end and this while chaos did a successful genbash and SM never managed to do one. Chaos with dreadnought is kinda 50/50 against the SM even without one. But SM gets much less attrition. Chaos must be pretty happy SM never got his dread out and imo this would ve been a complete roflstomp.

Also as a final note, notice the amount of unit experience on the player's units past the frist 10 minutes until the end
It is roughly
Chaos levels: 1 1 1 2 1
SM levels: 2 3 2 3 2

There is a lot of stuff very wrong about this matchup.

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

Damn, I only play Chaos and Eldar well but I don't think I've ever seen a bigger Chaos fanboy!

-FC switching weapons "because he can/didnt like the previous one". All FC weapons are extremely powerful and useful. Unlike CL's
-Overabundance of av from SM side but not from chaos side.

Had a good hearty laugh at these, thanks lad.

Chaos Lord has access to one of the best melee weapons in the game in T2, Lightning Claws. His Blood Maul is also extremely potent and comes with a mass knockback/stun ability that only takes 30 seconds to cool down, while Kill the Weak is 45 seconds.

Chaos also has access to a mass amount of AV throughout the entire game, much more than Space Marines. Aside from the obvious Lascannon, Autocannon, Plague Marines, Tzeentch Dreadnought, Chaos Terminator Autocannon, Land Raider Phobos, Lascannon Predator, there's even soft AV in the form of the Bloodcrusher and Raptor/KCSM ACs with a power fist and melta pistols.

All I can say is I'm glad you're not in charge of balancing.

[Max_Damage]

Damn, I only play Chaos and Eldar well but I don't think I've ever seen a bigger Chaos fanboy!

-FC switching weapons "because he can/didnt like the previous one". All FC weapons are extremely powerful and useful. Unlike CL's
-Overabundance of av from SM side but not from chaos side.

Had a good hearty laugh at these, thanks lad.

Chaos Lord has access to one of the best melee weapons in the game in T2, Lightning Claws. His Blood Maul is also extremely potent and comes with a mass knockback/stun ability that only takes 30 seconds to cool down, while Kill the Weak is 45 seconds.

Chaos also has access to a mass amount of AV throughout the entire game, much more than Space Marines. Aside from the obvious Lascannon, Autocannon, Plague Marines, Tzeentch Dreadnought, Chaos Terminator Autocannon, Land Raider Phobos, Lascannon Predator, there's even soft AV in the form of the Bloodcrusher and Raptor/KCSM ACs with a power fist and melta pistols.

All I can say is I'm glad you're not in charge of balancing.

Did you watch the replays?

Also, you re wrong about the claws. One of the worst T2 weapons. Because of low damage per hit. When you re chasing something down or attacking on the retreat the damage per hit counts, not the DPS because attack frequency is the same for all weapons while chasing. only depends on the speeds of the hero and the unit being chased (with CL being the slowest hero). Take FC fist. 150 damage heavy melee and a great ability. Nemesis Halberd 125 damage power melee AOE. Claws 100 power melee damage single target. Its also prohibitevely expensive and has a piss poor ability. Then, BC and FC are both faster then the CL lol. Never seen claws being used in 1v1. People use the CL solely for LTGB and combi flamer. Also, first 2 minute engagements where CL can solo anything but BC/sent. And i see Fist/ Halberd all the time. Claws would ve been so much better if CL had some speed and/or they did 125-150 damage per hit even if with a lower total DPS.

You should think outside your imaginary meta "claws 100 dps power melee" and watch the games i ve posted. There were no claws.

About AV, in these replays you can see SM lascannon, 2x rocket tac, power fist FC sort of AV spam because sm can do it.

Can you explain this?
Chaos levels: 1 1 1 2 1
SM levels: 2 3 2 3 2

[enasni127]

the most interessting part for me is the talk about chaos havoc's autocannons being worse than advanced targeting.
in fact the havoc autocannon is the best setup team autocannon in this game and deals enormous dps compared to all other auto cannons or comparable weapons. this is exactly why many people go for double autocannon havocs in their games.

edit:

just to add it: versatility is the tac marines special talent. this is why they cost more than chaos csm. a bunch of csm with eternal war and tzeentch bolters will easily kill a squad of missile launcher tac marines. both units feel to be their counter parts but overall their roles are a bit different imo.

the next thing is that chaos has great abilities and units vs all kind of setup teams and very strong melee units and "warp/teleport stuff". many people say they are the easiest race in this games and almost the same amount of people call chaos op (or did so especially in retail i think). i can't even believe that anybody finds them weak except for maybe being weak in this or that matchup like all other races have good and bad matchups.

...and lightning claws are fucking awesome!

[Torpid]

Well firstly, Mathis is a better player than Riku, so that's a thing. (love to see Riku try to pull off Mathis' 3x WB builds; I've done it, it's not easy, gives me mad respect for Mathis; and that isn't a slur to Riku, Mathis is one of the best players in 1v1 atm when he actually micros properly [unlike these games where he was clearly to me playing very under his average])

However, also, I do think the changes to sniper scouts are a huge buff and yes, I don't think chaos does fare well vs it.

I don't think Mathis played optimally here in terms of his micro. He made many HUGE misclick mistakes like buying a sarge early in G2 on his sniper scouts rather than his shotgun scouts. The build he was using was actually my build. And when played optimally I find that nothing can beat that build, but the best bet is a CS at super high level since it negates devastator usage without a librarian and it makes any T2 ASM purchases useless due to robes+Kdread.

Also Riku's going Tdreads over Kdreads in the second game was a game-losing-mistake. Very bad idea vs a FC. Especially when there was no RB!!!! There was a WW - you don't NEED to kill that like you do a RB constantly shooting you in the face. The very first dread should have instantly become a Kdread, otherwise a fast BC would have done much more work.

And yes, being gen-bashed doesn't matter at all if you are bleeding your foe more and winning on map control (which is why Caeltos I think your talk in the stream about gen-bashing being too powerful in the current meta is pure bullshit, like really, where does that come from? 3v3 no doubt, because clearly you're not playing 1v1).

[egewithin]

you re wrong about the claws. One of the worst T2 weapons. Because of low damage per hit.

Sorry but Claws are the best melee weapons in T2 and you can't ignore them like that :/ It has only a drawback; Chaos Lords low speed allows enemy to kite away and make him bad at chasing. In that case, you can't quite hit models. But, this is because of Chaos Lords speed problem, it is not from the weapons it self. Do not blame him, he is innocent. But lets look at this way; if he won't kite, he will bleed models. So he must kite away and has no other options than kite unit away and shoot him down while chase happens. Same tactic useful for other tanky heroes too but I can just handle FC and BC much easyer than CL. Also, BC and FC are not as good as handling Terminators as Chaos Lord if we ignore FC Termie armor but still CL is better. So, only Assault Termies can be an option. Apo and Techmarine will suffer from Claws if they go Termies.

Also, Halberd and Fist may have higher damage per hit but dps is far important and Claws has higher dps than these weapons. fist 85dps, halberd 83dps, claws 100dps. He just tears apart ASM, Orgryns, Purifies, etc.

Still, loosing to a FC is acceptible since he is the best hero in the game IMO.

However, you have a very good point on not able to kill models early on and slow speed. They always show Khorne Worship as a solution but it is just not enough. Mantle of Hate, the most unused CL armor ever, seems a bit weak an no reason to buy against other armors. We can have a small work on it and save this armor.

[Swift]

My explanation for this is skill. The Chaos and SM matchup has always typically been Chaos favoured. Believe me, when I first started playing this game in 1v1 I was infuriated that SM always beat my Chaos, Tacs having more health and Kraken bolts, Heretics melted, couldn't catch Scouts, ASM disruption was just so hilariously imbalanced.

After a lot of practice in the matchup, I'm still a bad player, but I've recognised that Chaos and SM, one for one, would be SM favoured in tier one, until you realise you should never fight one to one in this game and it's all about support.

-first of all, i d like to note how ridiculous scout snipers are in this matchup. Completely imba. Threre s no counter to the snipers from chaos side.

Chaos has always had issues with snipers. My recommendation is buying AC on the Heretics to make them less squishy and worship, Khorne to catch up with snipers, Nurgle to outheal them, Tzeentch to hide from them and draw them into a trap. Raptors also work but are a significant power sink in tier one for their performance.

-tacs always been pwning CSM on tier 1. Tacs have too much HP. If you remember, at one point the tacs had 990 hp in retrib

Tacs one on one beat CSM because of health and Kraken bolts, so you need to engage tacs with AC heretics. Tacs beat CSM, tics beat tacs, Scouts beat tics etc. Rememebr your CSM do higher melee damage than Tacs, so if you can melee them with Heretic support.

-advanced targeting is much better on the devs then the havoc autocannon. Chaos didn't bother upgrading to the autocannon because that would mean losing suppression. It is as a matter of fact a downgrade, at least in 1v1.

I did ponder this for a while, is losing the suppression a downgrade when SM gets active AV and suppression? This is when you need to recognise that the role changes for the unit, Advanced targeting is mainly area denial and control through suppression, the special rounds act as a light vehicle deterrent. Autocannons are a good form of direct damage vs all targets , more than the AV that advanced targeting gives you. They also work greatly under a Khorne shrine to do significant anti all damage.

-then, SM have unfair capping advantage with 6.5 speed scouts and 1.5 cap speed tacs.

And inherent trait of SM is to be flexible but not have the straight up damage. Chaos has a lot of direct damage available so SM needs other ways in which to fight.

-imo in both games CL was kinda negligeble past the first 10 minutes. Thats because he has one dimentional tactics and gear. Absolutely left mouse button melee hero that will lose to a proper warboss anyway and ofc doesnt get heavy melee weapons. Or get kited to infinity. Also, low alpha damage on his melee weapons. Bad killing potential, even with the claws. Sure, maul does 150 dmg per hit but its not power melee or heavy melee. Even BC has + speed default ability and the nemesis halberd does 125 damage per hit on AOE! instead of claw's 100 damage on 1 target. Wit h teleporter pack..

The CL is one dimensional in the extreme but for that reason he is beginner friendly, very easy to apply pressure with him in all stages of the game. If you are using him as direct damage early on, don't, he should tie up squads such as Tacs, ignore heroes and only go after Scouts under worship support with a combi-flamer. His wargear is some of the greatest for any tanky hero, going Dark Halo and the tier one energy armour he becomes very tanky inside his Christmas bauble. His Lightning claws synergise with this well as he gains energy per hit and they attack fast, so if you think 100 power melee per hit compared to 125 per hit is bad, you must factor in the fact that the Chaos Lord attacks much much faster, equating to better dps. The maul is my preferred weapon for the huge disruption is causes. It is not a problem it is regular melee at all, it being power melee would completely deny the use of ASM, which even against Chaos are often a bad choice.

-Noise marines fail to scale in any sort of effective way in T2. using them in T2 with vanilla weapons puts great risk of unit loss because it still has 1000 hp and it still doesn't have melee resistance aura or suppression/entanglement to keep the foes away.

The unit maintains usefulness throughout for it's ability to shut off all weapons and abilities, so I'm not sure how it doesn't scale. It can always get a Blastmaster if you need one and gens always need bashing so they are a great tool. Cacophony is a great way to disrupt ASM, just remember to time it right to get them after their knockback immunity has worn off.

-FC switching weapons "because he can/didn't like the previous one". All FC weapons are extremely powerful and useful. Unlike CL's

All the CL weapons are useful for a variety of reasons. LCs deal with the FC quickly, Maul is a huge disruption tool vs ASM, and the combi-flamer bleeds Scouts quickly and flames down turrets/beacons and gens.

-Overabundance of av from SM side but not from chaos side.

Chaos has arguably the most AV of any faction, SM just has better transitional AV, meaning the difference is you have to invest in a new squad where he needs an upgrade. Not all bad, considering a missile launcher is 40 power.

-Sorry i still don't like the chaos dreadnought. Two were lost on the second game. 1000 hp is an unnecessary punishment. Either that, or vanilla dread needs a useful ability.

Whilst the autocannon was buffed, the 1000 HP pool does feel a bit mean for what this Dreadnought provides out of the gate. A little more health or a slight cost decrease perhaps. Only reason I'd buy this dread in 1v1 is for MoK or MoT. Vanilla it underperforms in 1v1 too much.

-Whirlwind. I dont know what to think about this one but free knockback 24/7 without any sort of friendly fire over huge 2 screens away AoE sounds super imba . Bad unit design. Weirdboy does friendly fire. Whirlwind is a unicorn of units

It does sound so, but it has poor accuracy, hits only a small area and does next to no damage. SM need this disruption fight you head on or they'd likely lose.

-raptors? hmm they managed to rout SM a couple of times but they last too little and cant jump twice. Look, when it comes to the units it seems to me that the idea was "chaos unit is like SM unit but worse"

Pretty much, like ASM but worse. However a use I found for them is large AOE suppression, jump a unit, then chrage a new unit, boom, multiple suppressed units. Then take your pick of who to fight. In tier two the AC is a reasonable transport scarer and the Daemonic fury is good for single target damage. However, I don't recommend Raptors.

That was longer than I intended, but I hope you can see where I'm going with this. I think it's a case of not adjusting to the matchup, play some games, get some practice and you'll find the various knacks required.

[Max_Damage]

Guys i know that circlejerk reaction when someone brings balance points and you re like "YOLO its my time to be a smart ass".

About chaos lord i will repeat my points. Absolute trash hero, bad upgrades extremely 1 dimentional utility. Only combi flamer and LTGB is used.

About claws:

I want you to hear this again. because 1+1=2
When your hero is getting kited, the effective melee DPS only depends on the per-hit damage and hero speed (determining the frequency of hits ie how quickly does a hero catch up with the unit to hit in melee). Lets see: CL claws deal the least per hit damage of all weapons with 100 damage (unlike 125 and even 150-180 possible for Halberd, Fist and Warboss claw). check. CL is also a 4.5 speed hero unlike 5.0 FC and 4.5 BC with the innate haste ability. check

What we have: lowest per hit damage + lowest move speed = worst possible DPS when chasing something down or on retreat. This is the DPS that actually matters because people tend to move away from the slow heroes with big weapons while lighting them up.

Then, its extremely expensive to buy and has a piss poor ability.

Now people who say that claws are a good upgrade please answer:
1)where is the mistake in my arguments
2)why noone bothers with the CL claws but at the same time you see Fist and halberd all the time.

Mark of khorne: extremely useless ability for a 24/7 kited hero
Visage: focus fire CL for 2 seconds, he retreats, done
etc
Mantle of Hate... good way to force retreat on lonely heroes when you gang them 2v1? But he should retreat anyway.

Some of you are quite rational and are giving good insight in the matchup or perhaps into the personal ability of both players.

But i believe this matchup is quite obviously extremely tilted in favor of SM.

And please someone explain how is that possible in a fair matchip.

Chaos levels: 1 1 1 2 1
SM levels: 2 3 2 3 2

I just want to be rational and bring facts rather then "claws are awsum nuff said"

@Swiftsabre i have ~3+k games in Retrib i know the game well admittedly most of this is 3v3 but you know in 3v3 its even worse vs SM because terminators and LR, area of effect shield and APO healing whole armies. it was always unfair vs SM
Chaos gets worse tacs, worse dread, worse dev, worse tank(however, MoK Pred is kinda unique in regards to its DPS to infantry), worse ASM, worse terminators, no capping power, bad wargear and globals.

Look, Chaos is an obsolete faction in the meta.

[Swift]

Chaos levels: 1 1 1 2 1
SM levels: 2 3 2 3 2

Skill. The complete and utter application of superior skill with the utility Space Marines have available to maximise damage upon the Chaos forces in order to gain superior experience in areas where the Chaos army does not have to tools to fight back.

Now stick it the other way around for a moment:

SM levels: 1 1 1 2 1
Chaos levels: 2 3 2 3 2

Skill. The use of Chaos as a faction to exploit the ability to draw his foe into protracted engagements using counter initiation and direct damage to isolate engaging enemy units to maximise kills and experience.

Of course this second paragraph is not based upon any truth in the replays, but it's the kind of thing you could expect if the Chaos army had been handled better than the SM army. The reason these levels are what they are is the SM forces were managed better and thus they gained experience bleeding models that the Chaos player did not follow up on.

I'm not a fan of starting forum fights, so I'm not going to follow up on your comment about Chaos being obsolete and my involvement in the thread is done. Call me whatever you like, if you're going to accuse me of not admitting that you are right, it's perfectly fine of you to do so if you will, I just don't don't believe you understand the matchup at a very high level. It's absolutely fine though, and I know I'm patronising, but you'll learn soon enough how to go about this and I hope what I wrote helps.

[Max_Damage]

Chaos levels: 1 1 1 2 1
SM levels: 2 3 2 3 2

Skill. The complete and utter application of superior skill with the utility Space Marines have available to maximise damage upon the Chaos forces in order to gain superior experience in areas where the Chaos army does not have to tools to fight back.

Now stick it the other way around for a moment:

SM levels: 1 1 1 2 1
Chaos levels: 2 3 2 3 2

Skill. The use of Chaos as a faction to exploit the ability to draw his foe into protracted engagements using counter initiation and direct damage to isolate engaging enemy units to maximise kills and experience.

Of course this second paragraph is not based upon any truth in the replays, but it's the kind of thing you could expect if the Chaos army had been handled better than the SM army. The reason these levels are what they are is the SM forces were managed better and thus they gained experience bleeding models that the Chaos player did not follow up on.

I'm not a fan of starting forum fights, so I'm not going to follow up on your comment about Chaos being obsolete and my involvement in the thread is done. Call me whatever you like, if you're going to accuse me of not admitting that you are right, it's perfectly fine of you to do so if you will, I just don't don't believe you understand the matchup at a very high level. It's absolutely fine though, and I know I'm patronising, but you'll learn soon enough how to go about this and I hope what I wrote helps.

SM levels: 1 1 1 2 1
Chaos levels: 2 3 2 3 2
Pls show me a high level replay. because you are making things up.

[Sub_Zero]

-first of all, i d like to note how ridiculous scout snipers are in this matchup. Completely imba. Threre s no counter to the snipers from chaos side.

In my opinion good usage of snipers is REALLY hard to beat for almost any race. I have success with 2x snipers scouts against any race. But here are things for you to consider:
-A charging Chaos Lord with his combi-bolter under Khorne worship is perfectly capable of ruining any snipers' day.
-A teleporting Sorcerer is a decent counter as well, that is an instantaneous block to a single squad of snipers. Also you can use the sigil of the rift to warp your heretics right behind snipers positions. Let's not forget that 2x heretics can cloak your entire army and your opponent will need to invest resources just to be able to detect. Not to mention that you have to get closer to detect. The closer the sniper to the enemy the easier it is to catch him, right?
-A Plague Champion can heal his troops to prevent any model loses and his worship. When snipers used to hit hard it was still possible to somehow manage to preserve your models. Now you have more opportunities to preserve models via constant worship plus active heals. Right?
Doesn't look that bad now, does it? This is how a competent chaos player will try to counter this. But I am still inclined to say that if a SM player opts for snipers it is a favourable position for him at least in T1.

-tacs always been pwning CSM on tier 1. Tacs have too much HP. If you remember, at one point the tacs had 990 hp in retrib

Never been a problem for me. You just get 2 CSM and chances are more than even. Whereas a SM player can't afford 2 tacs that cheaply as Chaos can.

-advanced targeting is much better on the devs then the havok autocannon. Chaos didnt bother upgrading to the autocannon because that would mean losing supression. It is as a matter of fact a downgrade, at least in 1v1.

I would get an autocannon any day. Just for that stupid anti-everything damage from a really long range. Vengeance rounds can only be effective if devs are supported by a librarian. Other than that no vehicle will get close to them and at long range the damage is pathetic.

-then, SM have unfair capping advantage with 6.5 speed scouts and 1.5 cap speed tacs.

That is right. SM are better at capturing than Chaos. But Chaos do have its things to compensate.

-Noise marines fail to scale in any sort of effective way in T2. using them in T2 with vanilla weapons puts great risk of unit loss because it still has 1000 hp and it still doesnt have melee resistance aura or supression/entanglement to keep the foes away

Opposite to my opinion. I use them in their default form even in T3. I don't like the unreliability of their artillery form (I complained about that ages ago, nothing was done to fix this problem, the team doesn't prioritize it for some reason). But there are games when their artillery form is the only viable option. And I go for it and it brings me victory as well.

-Overabundance of av from SM side but not from chaos side.

SM is generally a better race in terms of AV but Chaos don't lack AV options like at all. Every T1 option but heretics can do great/decent AV. And every but 1 T2 option does AV. And all T3 options do great AV. I don't see anything lacking here.

-Whirlwind. I dont know what to think about this one but free knockback 24/7 without any sort of friendly fire over huge 2 screens away AoE sounds super imba . Bad unit design. Weirdboy does friendly fire. Whirlwind is a unicorn of units

Whirlwind is purely for disruption and a little bit of AV. If it did respectable damage it would be. But it does not. You can't allow it to live and disrupt stuff. Just like you counter hard any suppression team or otherwise suffer. If there is a whirlwind you must destroy it or you will suffer. That is the principle I play by when there is a whirlwind present.

P. S. I was in a big hurry. I will maybe edit something later.

[Dark Riku]

So much to respond to, going to try and cover as much without repeating myself.
Basically anything what Swift already said I agree on.
Almost anything that Max-Damage said I think the complete opposite.

@original post:

• Snipers are not total imba in this MU, the replays you picked don't even support your claim.
• Tacs do not "pwn" csm, after csm get EW they are straight up better than tacs dps wise.
  Their specialised upgrades are also better than the tacs counterparts.
• The auto cannon is not a straight up downgrade, I can't even comprehend this idea.
• CL is an aggression powerhouse. You can't just "ignore" him. Well you can, and let him cap all the points he's at.
• The Noise marines ability stays awesome in every tier and come T2 they can become artillery.
• Most of the Chaos roster is basically AV
• Those Chaos Dreads that game made him go over-abundance on AV. my infantry was uncontested afterwards.
• The WW only does KB though, it's doesn't do the damage of a weirdboy or zoan (Zoans also don't do any FF btw, so much for your "unicorn").
• Raptors don't have the same exact role as ASM and are good in their own role.
  
• And even with the levelled up SM units, the SM still lost. Interesting, don't you think?

Some other stuff @Max_Damage:
CL is not the slowest hero, the BC is. Chaos lord also has access to his Khorne worship that can boost his speed.

About AV, in these replays you can see SM lascannon, 2x rocket tac, power fist FC sort of AV spam because sm can do it.

So what? Now the SM player has no anti infantry any more. Enemy Infantry just goes uncontested.

Chaos obsolete? Chaos units are cheaper and do more damage than their SM counterpart by design.
Get your basics and facts right at least please :/

This whole thread is going nowhere

[Atlas]

I like how I found only one mention of the CL's best wargear; the damn Combi Flamer! That thing is expensive but it does so much work. Especially in picking off scouts in this particular MU.

I actually really liked subzero's post in this thread, but I'll put my own spin on things. While I personally believe that the SM vs Chaos matchup is acceptably SM favored in T1, I also think that it's acceptably Chaos Favored in T2. Chaos T2 can put out a lot of specialized and dangerous stuff that is just better on paper than SM T2. It more or less evens out in T3.

In that sense, I don't think this matchup is unacceptably imbalanced like I personally feel GK vs SM (and IG vs Eldar to an extent) is.

Ironically, the only kind of Chaos T1 buff that I could get behind is a Raptor bolt pistol dps buff. Caeltos has sort of opened this idea up earlier with the pistol buffs for the SM heroes. It might make them a little better at forcing off sniper squads and I think it works thematically with Raptors being better at slowing and pursuing units while something like ASM are better as an overall package. It's something I thought about while reading this thread, so it's not thought through that much.

[Swift]

Well Raptors are typically associated with picking off the weakest first, so that would be interesting. But it's lore stuff not solid game design so I don't know.

[egewithin]

Woha! Hold the phone! Chaos sometimes wins vs SM in 1v1 and Chaos wins too. What if these 2 replays are just some rare examples? Because apart from the people who wants more melee for Chaos, nobody ever said Chaos is a weak race. Because in my book, if you play good, you win. Just playing better is the way to glory. Maybe Chaos players played good but SM just better?

[Tex]

In my experience, this matchup is uber hard for chaos.

Especially now that heretics cough up more exp and scout snipers fire more rapidly/cost less/do more damage to heroes.

[Dark Riku]

I guess that's why the worse player, right Torpid, won against SM's.
Ow wait, that doesn't seem to make sense

@Tex: In my experience It's the other way around, minus the uber part.

[Torpid]

I guess that's why the worse player, right Torpid, won against SM's.
Ow wait, that doesn't seem to make sense

@Tex: In my experience It's the other way around, minus the uber part.

Didn't say you were the worst player and I also explicitly said that Mathis played terribly. He made gigantic mistakes. For example getting a whirlwind instead of a razorback in T2 just because it looked similar in the heat of the game and he rarely plays SM And also the getting a sarge on his sniper scouts instead of his shotgun scouts very early on...

There were others but yeah. Just in general his micro was not on point. He was clearly hurting from the pressure of tournaments/streaming and/or many other things.

[Codex]

Alright, this is starting to become a great recurring joke for the ages, I'm sure, but since we're in the balance section and not the race selection section, let's stick with that.

[Caeltos]

And yes, being gen-bashed doesn't matter at all if you are bleeding your foe more and winning on map control (which is why Caeltos I think your talk in the stream about gen-bashing being too powerful in the current meta is pure bullshit, like really, where does that come from? 3v3 no doubt, because clearly you're not playing 1v1).

Yep, never played 1v1s at all, I wasn't rank #1 in 1v1 or 2v2s in retail or top 10 in Chaos Rising for the most part, and never played in Retribution either. I also have no what-so-ever expertise or experience in watching replays and taking my analysises on what's going on. I also wasn't the co-captain of the most succesful tournament team in the game, and I didn't recruit Dirkradix and Edjtuh to our team as well. I remember first talking to Edtjuh on gametrailers forums, and then Taznaman (Norweigan Ork player and the team-captain of our team) said that Dirkradix was a potential candidate to be in our team, and we tried her out in ALL team games and not just specifically 1v1, and we had our be our 2v2s player matched with Edtjuh.)

I mean, literally. The genbashing factor plays a major part in the general gameplay and how the transitional phases works-afterwards from losing one. This is important in no matter what team-game you're playing in. However, in 1v1s, it's even-more so punishing since you don't have any teammates to rely back on to replace fallen generators to pick up the slack. You're dumbing down the whole matter for the sake of your arguement on this one fallacy of an opinion. There were so many games even during the MRT16 that were completely dependant on the fact that genlosses just measly snowballed the game out in the other players favor, and some cases where commander losses added up to an over a ~500 deficite if not more. That's roughly 2-3 minutes (if not more depending on the upkeep) of income that's gone down the waste, and a potential squad unit to be acting out and doing their thing. You apply the exact same principal and method to the genbashing factor as well.

On a serious note. Your post has been genuially just toxic as of late, and I've had several people being fed up with you, and I am as well.

[crazyman64335]

BAN ALL THE FORUM WARRIORS

on topic, snipers are very annoying. Tzeench marines are godlike in the matchup, bloodletters are pretty good as well. Space Marine dread synergy is better with the overall SM force than the chaos counterpart.

Pretty balanced matchup, unless we're considering GK as space marines in which case they're broken and you should just BM the GK player for being a GK player.

[The great Cornholio]

well.. marines vs chaos... it really depends on the situation. is it 1v1 is it 3v3... in 1v1 i feel chaos has the upper hand. but when we talk 3v3. i often feel marines just steamroll over chaos.they just have some really nice t1 stuff perfect for faction games.


becon
apo passive heal
stormshield
drop pods
FC battlecry

it just makes a huge difference compared to chaos that have no reinforcement in t1. and only 1 option in t2 if you play plaugedude.
but at the same time its well known that chaos has amazing t2 with many powerfull units. things like bloodletters and plaugemarines are great and
the autocannon is 5 times betta than advance targeting ever was.
another thing that is crucial with chaos is worship and they way it enhances deamons and gives them staying power.. bloodletters under T worship can be a real pain in the ass and chosen plaugedudes are also pretty awsome as melee counters

so my best advice would be to get a pretty heavy t1 build to stay alive and go into t2 where chaos really starts 2 kick ass.

[Dark Riku]

it just makes a huge difference compared to chaos that have no reinforcement in t1. and only 1 option in t2 if you play plaugedude.

2 options, Daemonic Summoning for sorc.